All's Quiet on the Eastern Front?

[Bearcat]

I think staying in the East after the BoM installment is folly.  There are entire populations of Simmers who have steered clear of BoS/BoM to this point simply because the Eastern Front holds no interest for them.  I find this unfortunate and short-sighted for those people as the Eastern Front is absolutely fascinating for me.  But so is the Med, Pacific, China/Burma, Winter War, North Africa etc.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  Simmers are known to be a stubborn lot of horses, even when dying of thirst, and they aren't all drinking yet.  If the Devs continue to show that they are a one-trick-content-pony they will be missing a great opportunity to capitalize on the Sim market and grab market share from the War Thunder Market, and get out in front of DCS and CloD.  

 

One of the strengths of IL-2 Sturmovik was the variety it brought to the community.  The BoS brand is absent that strength right now and would only remain a one-trick-content-pony longer while the competition rapidly expands to service the groups of simmers who desire other theaters.  They'd be intentionally leaving skin out of the game.

 

It's about messaging as much as anything else, and of late I think this part has been sorely missing.  If they are going to create ANY buzz about this product it's going to happen when the large holes in BoS are filled with a combination of highly requested features, and an expansion in content AWAY from the Eastern Front.   

 

If I were King for a day, my plan would be to announce the 3rd installment of the Series as Either the Med or Pacific, knock BoM out of the park with the planned content and few of the top 10 features requested by the community, and continue to supply the Eastern Front with onesy-twosey content packs such as new maps and Objects, and Variants of current aircraft (to include add-on ordance packs) and release new aircraft in an "Adversary Pack".  Fw-190D vs. Yak-3 ; Hs-129 vs. A-20 Boston ; F2A vs. I-15/153.  The effect would be that while expanding into another highly desired theater the Eastern Front continues to grow in a sustainable, steady pace while maintaining interest from the community in the Eastern Front.  

 

At the Rate we are going, which is a good rate compared to the market, we still wouldn't see another theater until 2017-2018 if the 3rd installment is another Eastern Front effort.  That is just WAY too long to ignore the rest of the world, and would be a missed opportunity for the brand.

 

A most EXCELLENT post... 

[simplyjames]

The idea of releasing a map and 10 planes over and over sounds great to me. I'd love to fly a ton of planes with the feel of BoS. I can think of a few in every theater that would be a blast to fly. That coupled with some features and i think the game will be my favorite for a long time.

Edited May 25, 2015 by simplyjames

[SKG51_robtek]

As it is, imho, BoS/BoM/Bo?/.. can only become successful if the limiting DNE engine is either dropped or refurbished that it can manage more as the limited numer of units that is experienced now.

The models are great, the feel of flight is great, the rest can be adjusted to reality, except the numbers in the sky and on the ground.

[Bearcat]

As it is, imho, BoS/BoM/Bo?/.. can only become successful if the limiting DNE engine is either dropped or refurbished that it can manage more as the limited numer of units that is experienced now.

The models are great, the feel of flight is great, the rest can be adjusted to reality, except the numbers in the sky and on the ground.

 

I wonder about that.. I keep hearing about the limitations of the DNE.. but I wonder if that were the case .. it it were not possible to tweak it to get more out og it why they would have chosen it in the first place .. so I am still in a wait and see mode.. I remember all the talk about the limitations of the IL2 engine.. and we see where that has gone.. beyond anyone's wildest dreams..

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

it it were not possible to tweak it to get more out og it why they would have chosen it in the first place ..

-snip-

 

Because it was easier..? 

 

You know... "And they built this great new IL-2 in 2 years!!@!" thing that people keep going on about.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Because it was easier..? 

 

You know... "And they built this great new IL-2 in 2 years!!@!" thing that people keep going on about.

Probably true. Leveraging an existing asset where a ton of work has already been done over the course of several years probably made 1CGS/777 Studios proposal to tackle the IL-2 series a home run hit in terms of business proposals. That said... DNE seems to be quite capable. It has its limits (mostly because of its fairly high fidelity) but its a pretty impressive engine from what I've seen of it anyways. I get the sense that they won't be so quick to abandon something that works so well - we may see some upgrades to the core over time (I would expect that) but stuff like weapons ballistics and damage modeling seems to be very good. Any complaints we've had don't seem to be engine limitations (we ran into so many of those over the course of the original IL-2).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Not an ROF'er but how many air units can be supported over there? I understand the DN engine has been modified for BOS.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Because it was easier..? 

 

You know... "And they built this great new IL-2 in 2 years!!@!" thing that people keep going on about.

 

Seems like you're memory is fading remember the posts on the Ubi forums about how it was impossible to have a proper BOB feel to the sim when we couldn't have tens or a hundred of AI bombers in a mission....or were you one of those guys....?

[Bearcat]

That is one thing that I just do not get... the original CoD team, Gaijinn, and 1CGS had a ready made fan base to start with .... There has been a community of simmers waiting for something on the order of IL2 and beyond for almost a decade now.. and to tell the truth we have yet to see anyone truly and fully capitalize on that ready made market... BoS has potential don't get me wrong.. but I am blown away by the fact that no one.. not even the creators of IL2 had the vision and foresight to truly capitalize on the community built off of IL2. There was no reason whatsoever for CoD to fail.. but it did initially and given the rabid fan base that was already in place in 2009 there was just no reason for CoD to fail other than incompetence on the part of it's developers and marketers... The same can be said for Gaijinn with WoP... and to an extent with this team as well... although for me the fact that they are still standing and moving in the right direction  after 2+ years says a lot.. and I am more optimistic about this series than any of the aforementioned products..  It remains to be seen what will come of all this. For the moment I am still all in because I just do not see anything else on the horizon that can really scratch that itch for a next generation WWII sim...  TF is doing some great stuff.. but how long will it be before the next update to CoD after the often spoken of but still as of yet unseen 5.0? We have been waiting on EDGE and DCS WWII for a while as well...  not that any of that is not forthcoming .. but when...? For me the only thing that will be able to scratch my itch for a full blown dedicated WWII sim over the next 2-4 years is BoS as far as I see and can even remotely count on in the near future.. So I am in wait and see mode... and we shall surely see.

[SharpeXB]

Not an ROF'er but how many air units can be supported over there? I understand the DN engine has been modified for BOS.

The max size in the QMB is 30 vs 16 in BoS

There are certainly changes and improvements you can see in BoS vs RoF.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

That is one thing that I just do not get... the original CoD team, Gaijinn, and 1CGS had a ready made fan base to start with .... There has been a community of simmers waiting for something on the order of IL2 and beyond for almost a decade now.. and to tell the truth we have yet to see anyone truly and fully capitalize on that ready made market... BoS has potential don't get me wrong.. but I am blown away by the fact that no one.. not even the creators of IL2 had the vision and foresight to truly capitalize on the community built off of IL2. There was no reason whatsoever for CoD to fail.. but it did initially and given the rabid fan base that was already in place in 2009 there was just no reason for CoD to fail other than incompetence on the part of it's developers and marketers... The same can be said for Gaijinn with WoP... and to an extent with this team as well... although for me the fact that they are still standing and moving in the right direction  after 2+ years says a lot.. and I am more optimistic about this series than any of the aforementioned products..  It remains to be seen what will come of all this. For the moment I am still all in because I just do not see anything else on the horizon that can really scratch that itch for a next generation WWII sim...  TF is doing some great stuff.. but how long will it be before the next update to CoD after the often spoken of but still as of yet unseen 5.0? We have been waiting on EDGE and DCS WWII for a while as well...  not that any of that is not forthcoming .. but when...? For me the only thing that will be able to scratch my itch for a full blown dedicated WWII sim over the next 2-4 years is BoS as far as I see and can even remotely count on in the near future.. So I am in wait and see mode... and we shall surely see.

 

The funny thing is that this is about as close to you can get to the original IL2 in terms of how good it was but how limited the scope was at the same time. The main fact is that the sim works for most people and works well the FMs and DMs are good enough and there is enough content to enjoy. I think we all had unrealistic expectations with CLOD and thought it was going to be IL2 2.0 but like BOS they had to spend most of their resources on the core leaving out costly expenditure on the campaign (spit girl anyone?) and MP co-ops. Worse of all they pandered to minorities who demanded clickable pits and all the other pointless stuff and clearly ran out of cash. 

 

In short has 777 got everything right? No but they're sticking to a plan that guarantees more planes and maps and hopefully more functions as well i.e. continued support. I doubt we'll ever see the high numbers online like we did back in the day but I enjoy what we have and find it better or as good as anything else out there depending on what you prefer.

[BlitzPig_EL]

So I am in wait and see mode...

 

 

Me too.

 

I just hope they can work out the limitations in the DN engine so we can have real numbers of ground and air targets.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Me too.

 

I just hope they can work out the limitations in the DN engine so we can have real numbers of ground and air targets.

 

The only limitations are in your mind...find friends and go fly

 

We'll have enough years to bemoan the end of our hobby but that isn't today

[SharpeXB]

edit... Failed

Edited May 25, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Bearcat]

The funny thing is that this is about as close to you can get to the original IL2 in terms of how good it was but how limited the scope was at the same time. The main fact is that the sim works for most people and works well the FMs and DMs are good enough and there is enough content to enjoy. I think we all had unrealistic expectations with CLOD and thought it was going to be IL2 2.0 but like BOS they had to spend most of their resources on the core leaving out costly expenditure on the campaign (spit girl anyone?) and MP co-ops. Worse of all they pandered to minorities who demanded clickable pits and all the other pointless stuff and clearly ran out of cash. 

 

In short has 777 got everything right? No but they're sticking to a plan that guarantees more planes and maps and hopefully more functions as well i.e. continued support. I doubt we'll ever see the high numbers online like we did back in the day but I enjoy what we have and find it better or as good as anything else out there depending on what you prefer.

 

+1

 

Me too.

 

I just hope they can work out the limitations in the DN engine so we can have real numbers of ground and air targets.

 

I keep hearing about this bit so far no one has backed it up one way or the other..

[SharpeXB]

There was no reason whatsoever for CoD to fail..

An early making of video about the planning for Cliffs of Dover

 

Edited May 25, 2015 by SharpeXB

[BraveSirRobin]

Me too.

 

I just hope they can work out the limitations in the DN engine so we can have real numbers of ground and air targets.

 

[Edited]

Edited May 26, 2015 by Bearcat

[SCG_Neun]

I think the reality is we are going to have to accept that what we have now is basically as good as the numbers are going to get. Veterans missions for example do have a fair amount of ground and air activity going on, and I'm sure we would all like to see more......but maybe smaller scale engagements are just something we are going to have to get used to.

I'm just as interested in a dynamic style of career based missions, and all the other enhancements we've discussed. But officially unless you guys know something I dont, BOM is going to be BOS with some of the props needed for the historical overlay of the battle, ie.... Maps, planes, boats well you know...But man...it's going to be green down there.....

An early making of video about the planning for Cliffs of Dover
 

 

 

That's neat Sharpe...isn't that from that movie...A Sim Too Far?  "And mightily bored they'll be"....

Edited May 26, 2015 by JagdNeun

[6./ZG26_Emil]

An early making of video about the planning for Cliffs of Dover

 

 

 

 

I guess 30 corp were the community...full of spunk and guff yet when it came down to it weren't able to back up the main thrust :D

[SCG_Neun]

I actually love this clip....and it's so in keeping with the real speech that was made that day.  Notes were taken from the speech and followed for the book...and the movie.....I love the way this guy says..."punch a hole"...hehee

[BlitzPig_EL]

Don't worry, the rest of the community will pay for the changes that you want while you're sitting on the sidelines waiting.

 

 

What kind of rubbish is that?

 

The rest of the "community" will pay?   Excuse me?   I've purchased BoS, and if I decide to carry on with this series I'll purchase BoM as well, so that means I'll pay too.

 

Honestly sometimes I think you people forget that you are customers purchasing an entertainment product, not donating to Mother Teresa to feed the destitute.

[SharpeXB]

I actually love this clip....and it's so in keeping with the real speech that was made that day.  Notes were taken from the speech and followed for the book...and the movie.....I love the way this guy says..."punch a hole"...hehee

Yeah it's about one of the best movies ever.

[SCG_Neun]

An excellent book too Sharpe....My son and I both read that one this past month.  I'm going to go to battle ground if all goes well this September....

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Not an ROF'er but how many air units can be supported over there? I understand the DN engine has been modified for BOS.

 

Its limitations are the same.

[BraveSirRobin]

 I've purchased BoS, and if I decide to carry on with this series I'll purchase BoM as well, so that means I'll pay too.

 

That's great, but if you don't buy BoM and decide to wait for BoK(ursk) or BoN(orth)A(frica) or BoW(hatever) then you'll benefit from the rest of us paying for the development of BoM.  It's not feeding the destitute, it's just supporting the only dev team still working on a WW2 flight sim.  Well, assuming you don't start developing your own WW2 flight sim, which I assume would be totally awesome...

[Bearcat]

What kind of rubbish is that?

 

The rest of the "community" will pay?   Excuse me?   I've purchased BoS, and if I decide to carry on with this series I'll purchase BoM as well, so that means I'll pay too.

 

Honestly sometimes I think you people forget that you are customers purchasing an entertainment product, not donating to Mother Teresa to feed the destitute.

 

Are such generalizations really applicable considering you are talking to one individual?

 

 

 

That's great, but if you don't buy BoM and decide to wait for BoK(ursk) or BoN(orth)A(frica) or BoW(hatever) then you'll benefit from the rest of us paying for the development of BoM.  It's not feeding the destitute, it's just supporting the only dev team still working on a WW2 flight sim.  Well, assuming you don't start developing your own WW2 flight sim, which I assume would be totally awesome...

 

While I share your sentiment as far as the support goes... you cannot nor should you try to dictate to anyone how they spend their money or the consequences thereof..

[BraveSirRobin]

While I share your sentiment as far as the support goes... you cannot nor should you try to dictate to anyone how they spend their money or the consequences thereof..

 

I'm not.  I'm just pointing out what should be (but apparently is not) an obvious fact.  And I can't dictate the consequences.  The consequences will be dictated by the market.

[Dakpilot]

Its limitations are the same.

 

And yet the people who have worked extensively with both RoF and BoS with deep knowledge of the ME's say that is not the case. Examples of the work with Operations server and that of AM..

 

Your unsubstantiated rhetoric is tiring and inaccurate

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I actually love this clip....and it's so in keeping with the real speech that was made that day.  Notes were taken from the speech and followed for the book...and the movie.....I love the way this guy says..."punch a hole"...hehee

 

Sorry, off topic but......  "We’ll Be Right Back After This Short Break"

 

Great film, but my favourite scene bar none is this:

 

[Cloyd]

What kind of rubbish is that?

 

The rest of the "community" will pay?   Excuse me?   I've purchased BoS, and if I decide to carry on with this series I'll purchase BoM as well, so that means I'll pay too.

 

Honestly sometimes I think you people forget that you are customers purchasing an entertainment product, not donating to Mother Teresa to feed the destitute.

 

C'mon El, quit your bitching and moaning and just drink the KoolAid. You'll feel much better afterwards.

 

Cloyd

Edited May 26, 2015 by Cloyd

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Ooooh man..... all this bickering, and for what?

 

No amount of arguing and to-and-froing is going to change anything. You can all - well not all of you but you know what I mean - huff and puff as much as you like but this sim is what it is and will become what it will become. Sit back, enjoy the ride and be excited for what comes next, if anything. One thing is for sure, BoS has definitely set the bar in what a ww2 game/sim should look like and what the potential is and if it fails then someone else will pick it up because hell knows, we certainly have a lot of enthusiastic people to get all excited about what comes next.

 

I for one have all the other sims/games and I can't explain it, but I just keep  logging onto BoS and BoM is not even here yet. Yesterday I jumped on Mano55's tail (he was in a yak) after he had just shot me down (normal mode) with about 4 other LW guys chasing him around the map for 5 minutes and he still managed to get 2 more of us! I have never seen anything like it yet and I was fuming hot smoke from my eyeballs from the audacity of it all. There are some amazing things about this game and the skill of some belies belief. Some guy has an online celebration at his first kill and how long it took him, then I see Wahn and MK_MR's stats and they have already notched 11 kills/0 deaths in a matter of 45 minutes on expert.

 

BoS has already created a great community with very little online abuse and ranting and its a beautiful game all in all. BoM is in the pipeline and the potential is certainly here. Just enjoy it and lets see what comes next.

[Bearcat]

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

inaccurate

 

 

-snip-

 

 

Nah, it's really not.

 

Obvious enough, really.

[SharpeXB]

Nah, it's really not.

 

Obvious enough, really.

There was a test posted here a while ago. Flying down a road lined with hundreds of objects. This was for MP I think. Edited May 26, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SYN_Mike77]

I just want to interrupt the name calling to point out that right now RoF can get 75 online at any one time.  The active front weekday missions on Syndicate can get a nice mix of ai flights and online players as well.  You can rustle up a good number of friends on any given day of the week and treat it like a co-op mission right now if you want!  And that is all with the Dn engine.

Edited May 26, 2015 by SYN_Mike77

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

@ SharpeXB - Link please. I have great faith in AM and he says when designed correctly there can be hundreds of ground objects on a map with excellent framerates. AI still seems to be limited ATM. As an MP'er AI isn't much of an issue for me but ground objects are. For the SP'ers I am hoping the AI hit can be optimised for good gameplay.

 

@Mike - good to know.

Edited May 26, 2015 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

@ SharpeXB - Link please.

It might take a while to find it...

[Bearcat]

There was a test posted here a while ago. Flying down a road lined with hundreds of objects. This was for MP I think.

 

 

@ SharpeXB - Link please. I have great faith in AM and he says when designed correctly there can be hundreds of ground objects on a map with excellent framerates. AI still seems to be limited ATM. As an MP'er AI isn't much of an issue for me but ground objects are. For the SP'ers I am hoping the AI hit can be optimised for good gameplay.

 

@Mike - good to know.

 

 

I remember that post...  It showed AM flying down a wall of smokestacks as an obstacle course...

[AbortedMan]

https://youtu.be/xwebS57OvLc

 

There's another one someone made with custom objects that's way more intensive, but I can't find it at the moment (at work).

 

Haven't read the thread, but short conclusion:

Ground objects: tons of em

AI aircraft: ~5 is the limit on mid range hardware

(For MP)

[BraveSirRobin]

AI aircraft: ~5 is the limit on mid range hardware

(For MP)

 

5 per side or 5 total?