Game Modes

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

As the game evolves I think it is important to revisit game modes from time to time. This is another short article on the difference between each of the modes with updates to the game in mind since the last time I addressed the issue. There should be a much bigger difference between modes. And, in my opinion, a critical need is a lite mode for beginners.

 

 

Light or Easy DF:

What is currently the Normal mode should be modified ever so slightly and be renamed Light or Easy mode. The 9km icons are good for this mode and it is probably good to see through the aircraft and clouds. No changes to FM/DM but CEM should be off. (I’d be OK if the DM only was a little easier here. If it would draw in more casual gamers but that is for another post.) Lighten the AAA or remove it completely but add a ton more static ground objects. These are the arenas new pilots should be starting off in to learn the basics and how to get their planes into the air. Combat should be geared to the beginners - AAA would be less or no concern at all. Basic flight and simple combat maneuvering should be the focus in the, "Light," servers.

 

This is where the, “noobs,” should be making the transition from mouse games to flight sims. It would be a really good place for squads to take new guys for training and teamwork exercises. All of the external views, "on." These servers would be good for the action junkies and furballers and ‘I only have a half hour to fly guys’. They would be very popular with that crowd.

 

Maps should have the full radar and reporting. Full GPS for all aircraft within 9 km. AC reporting ‘on’ from friendly sources, as long as they are in immediate contact/eyes on, but fading within 30 seconds if the friendly pilot is not looking directly at them.

 

Weather and wind should be off except for some high clouds.

 

Normal:

 

Normal, at the moment has very little in common with what is Normal in the real world. This mode should get a makeover.

 

Change the distance counter. Kill the 9km icon distances immediately! And NO screen edge flags – why is this 1990’s holdover one of the things we decided to bring forward? They are horrible!

 

Make icons only become visible at 2 or 2.5km and never have the screen edge flags. Make spotting become more important at distances over 2.5km. Let the counter fade in as the aircraft gets closer like it does now. At 1.5km it should change to the correct/full color and aircraft type. At .5km it should say the pilot’s name.

 

I currently can determine the style of flight for a couple of dozen well known pilots. Make it more of a mystery who they are unless we are close enough to see the whites of each others eyes.

 

Right now there is no way to set up a proper bounce in a Normal server. This needs to be addressed.

 

Normal should be the stepping stone to Expert just as Easy should be the stepping stone to Normal.

 

Anything that is blind in real life should be blind in the game; clouds, seat armor, wings/fuselage, and AAA spotting from the ground through clouds should be eliminated. This is where traditional flight simmers and rusty combat veterans would mix it up.  It would force you to hunt and track considerably more actively, allow sneak attacks to develop more naturally, and be a true check six server.

 

All of the opponent and object external views, "OFF." Right now there is almost no situational awareness required.  It should be more of a priority in a Normal server. I’d be OK with external views of your own AC though I rarely use them personally.

 

CEM ‘on’ and later add the full manual startup sequence, minus engine warmup times.

 

NO RADAR and GPS for just my aircraft position.

 

Full AAA would be implemented. A good variety of wind at the ground level to make landings more difficult/interesting should always be on. No gusting. Plenty of cloud types.

 

Normal by definition should be normal. This is the mode where most of your clientele should be playing.

 

Expert:

 

Expert should be largely unchanged. The onIy monumental change should be NO radar or GPS of any kind. Just the navigational beacons.

 

CEM should be as complex as possible and the full manual startup sequence should be implemented, including warmup times.

 

Insane AAA and dynamic weather should always be on.

 

I mostly like the expert mode. So, no significant changes. Hardcore mode should be VERY hard to play well and it is.

 

 

 

MODS: Could you leave this in general for a day before moving it to suggestions so the conversation can take hold first?

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

U have some sound ideas. I feel that there should be an in between mode as normal for me is made too tedious because of the current icon system, killing a lot of game play possibilities and hardcore is fine but I will only play if there is a proper mission with people on team speak etc.

 

 

I'm for your "normal" idea!! 1946 had a customisable icon system that allowed you to change the range visibility, strength of colour and also it even had one colour icons for all planes I.e. so you still had to visually identify the type at close range.

 

I don't want to blow the thread but this basically comes down to opening full control of all these features and not having the "game like" two setting. This way we could have a server for everyone's taste. The more options the better. Sadly for what ever reason I don't see the devs changing this

 

I really hope they sort it out

Edited May 19, 2015 by AeroBase

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Well, Black Six is on so it's getting read.

It really is mostly minor changes and not much coding but the upside has a good chance at really making a difference in gameplay. It gives the newst pilots a place to start, gamers and action junkies a place to find the quickest action, improves the experienced pilots, uh, experience in normal, and leaves the expert servers mostly untouched and hardcore. 

 

Lite/Easy needs to be implemented and normal should definitely be a little harder.

 

All of it without the DEV headache of full custom free for all hell.

Edited May 19, 2015 by HerrMurf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Implement the NORMAL changes on the 1CGS server and look at the feedback. That way you don't have a full rollout without testing it first.

[Danziger]

This is a good idea

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Oh, and bind the rudder in Lite/Easy mode only. Take some burden off the newest guys on purchasing hardware. Every other flight sim has had this though it might neccesitate air starts only.

Edited May 19, 2015 by HerrMurf

[NastyDog]

Love to see normal whit no icons so i need to spot enemy plane and ground targets by my self ,and on the main time dont have to check my engine management

,because still have problem whit that , i hope some squadrons who build missions now fore expert put a sever up whit there missions in a normal mod ,only 

 than whit out engine management

Edited May 19, 2015 by NastyDog

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Implement the NORMAL changes on the 1CGS server and look at the feedback. That way you don't have a full rollout without testing it first.

+1

[coconut]

HerrMurf, I think you got good ideas in your post regarding improved icons.

 

I think however we should distinguish between aids (icons, automated CEM, views...) and environmental danger (AAA, wind, weather, AI levels...). It makes sense to blend easy controls with a dangerous environment, or realistic controls with "sight-seeing"-levels of combat heat.

 

I would also put the first category under "server options" (DServer.exe), and the second category is mostly mission design (FMB).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yes and No. I want the newest pilots to concentrate on the flying, combat maneuvering and the joys/fun of entry level sim combat, not the environmental aspects of the game. So, I've used a unified approach to the problem while improving the Normal mode as well. Again, at the lowest level of coding and headaches for the DEVS. I'm OK with modes of play as they envision it. I just think one more option would really open it up for simmers to match their play style with the game.

Edited May 19, 2015 by HerrMurf

[TheNotoriousFNG]

Excellent! I agree with these ideas, it would certainly help to attract new players and ease them into all of what BoS has to offer should they decide to progress that far. I had a similar idea in a different thread but yours is much better fleshed out and makes more sense, IMO.

 

My only suggestion would be perhaps to meet in the middle for CEM in Normal mode...maybe have there be no protection for engine limits but still some assists such as with radiators, pitch and mixture?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'd leave mixture out of it if we wanted to include radiators and prop pitch. Close to what the original had on the servers I used in the early 2000's. Mixture is a bit of voodoo science to many.

[No601_Swallow]

Great topic Murf.

 

I think "easy" mode is a great idea. There must be aspects to the sim that will cater for the generation that will never have Crimson Skies (my own entre' into simming!   ) etc, etc, to hone their airborne instincts...  Errrr... Not much else to add, since I more or less agree with all of it. Erm... rename "easy/light" mode "rookie mode"? Is that all I can think of? Modding of in-flight icons would be great. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by No601_Swallow

[Albino]

I would be inclined to learn CEM if a Normal server as HerrMurf describes were available.

 

With only FaceTrackNOIR my tracking solution isn't stable enough for true spotting so icons are necessary.

 

Can anybody explain whether Icons blocked by line of site (eg; clouds, cockpit interiors and terrain) are possible? Is this difficult functionality to add to the engine?

 

Regards

Albino

Edited May 20, 2015 by Albino

[SharpeXB]

There are not enough players online to support more than three modes in multiplayer. There's already a Custom mode in addition to Normal and Expert. The "Modes" also at least at this stage don't really mean anything since all they do is establish how many points you earn. But the points have no meaning so why bother creating more Modes.

And instead of trying to cater to every whim of game aids. Players should be encouraged to fly Expert where none of this matters.

For new players, online is not really the place to learn or practice. That's what SP is for.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I disagree out of hand.

 

That is the elitist attitude that ensures new players will stay away from this sim. One only needs to look at WT to disprove almost your entire premise. Scalability/difficulty levels give everyone the ability to find servers within their ability levels and find enjoyment/satisfaction within the sim.

[SharpeXB]

I disagree out of hand.

That is the elitist attitude that ensures new players will stay away from this sim. One only needs to look at WT to disprove almost your entire premise. Scalability/difficulty levels give everyone the ability to find servers within their ability levels and find enjoyment/satisfaction within the sim.

Yes but the difficulty modes in BoS only affect the SP campaign. They have no function in multiplayer. The servers don't even show which options are selected, something that should be improved.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I disagree out of hand.

 

That is the elitist attitude that ensures new players will stay away from this sim. One only needs to look at WT to disprove almost your entire premise. Scalability/difficulty levels give everyone the ability to find servers within their ability levels and find enjoyment/satisfaction within the sim.

 

Totally agree.

[SharpeXB]

Totally agree.

Agree too. But BoS already has a multitude of game aid options. It really doesn't need to be made more elaborate by classifying them as separate mode. RoF already went through this and replaced its original 5 levels of difficulty with 3. Which are similar to BoS. So it's not likely BoS will reverse course. What BoS did differently is within the two presets for Normal and Expert are a bunch of options like enabling CEM in Normal or having navigation icons in Expert. You can just switch these in or off if you want. So there's no need for more levels. The only purpose for these levels in BoS is to score the campaign and win unlocks. In MP currently they have no purpose. Edited May 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yes, but if you re-read the post you will see it gives meaning to the levels. And I'll add your suggestion from two posts ago. Use chevrons and stars in that left column to quickly indicate what level of server you are using. It seems really easy to implement most of the OP, clean up some issues, make MP entry into the sim more accessible and make Normal more realistic without impacting Expert much at all.

 

The key here, from a dev standpoint, is minimal headache and coding except for a little heavy lifting to introduce an easy mode.

 

Easy mode can wait. Normal should get its facelift ASAP.

 

*As for normal, if you can't hide the icons behind visual obstacles for technical reasons, then make them all gray but keep the modified distances and make identification slightly more important than it is now.

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

Suggested

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16386-show-difficulty-realism-options-mp-gui/

[-TBC-AeroAce]

*As for normal, if you can't hide the icons behind visual obstacles for technical reasons, then make them all gray but keep the modified distances and make identification slightly more important than it is now.

+1

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

+1

I think you may have suggested it, Aero. I am not above plagerizing for the good of the game.

[SharpeXB]

*As for normal, if you can't hide the icons behind visual obstacles for technical reasons, then make them all gray but keep the modified distances and make identification slightly more important than it is now.

I gather that there are players who need the icons visible through the cockpit because they lack head tracking and can't easily see around canopy frames etc. There's no "virtual cockpit" view available in BoS but it's replaced by having icons that aren't hidden. I figure that's why it is how it is.

There's nothing realistic about icons anyways so it matters little whether they're hidden or how they appear. The best option if you don't like them is to turn them off.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'm fine with icons in Normal. They are just way too obvious right now. They should be an, aid in close, for dogfighting. Not a crutch for basic airmanship.

 

Additionally, I flew '46 without head tracking for years and it's pretty obvious Mr.X flys with the coolie hat. It's advantageous but not a necessity.

 

These are good conversations, good arguments and good ideas. That is where progress is made. Hope to get some percentage of it implemented.

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

They should be an aid in close for dogfighting.

At close range you don't need icons. Actually you don't need them at any range. BoS has very good detail and the ability to spot and ID objects is very well done. They're really a beginners or training aid especially for understanding how to judge range. For for decent gameplay they should be off IMO. They spoil the look of the game first of all and in MP who wants a big "shoot me" symbol floating above their plane? They make most realistic tactics ie bounces or evasive maneuvers impossible.

Edited May 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Agreed, and why they should be off in expert, as they are. Normal, by definition is where your average pilots, and bulk of your clientele, should be playing. Aids are important here to keep the field level'ish. Expert should be for veterans and tier I pilots. I fly normal for fun. I fly expert for immersion and the challenge (of surviving).

 

Using the icon modifications above and no screen edge flags would make bounces exponentially more achievable. You'd have to scan, even if through the AC and in color, instead of going "oh, a flag has suddenly appeared. Maybe I should look around a bit."

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

SharpeXB, I think all of your arguments are valid but many seem to be geared towards expert as opposed to normal. But I'm happy to keep discussing it and defending my thesis

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

SharpeXB, I think all of your arguments are valid but many seem to be geared towards expert as opposed to normal. But I'm happy to keep discussing it and defending my thesis

Sure. I think in progression that players go through in developing skills and appreciation for these aspects in sims is that by the time you've got a view towards what's "realistic" then just move on to Expert. It's hard for the developer to keep tinkering with "normal" when it's not really possible to satisfy everyone with what that definition should be. Expert is easy enough to define. So there's two game modes. One is Expert and the other isn't. I think they did a good job in BoS by allowing some variation within those presets. Edited May 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The dichotomy is too broad and the basis for my argument. There is room, for not much design investment, to make both (and all three) modes better. Normal could be considerably better with some small tweaks and not much investment.

 

Going slightly OT, The Eastern Front has a broad appeal for WWII enthusiasts and our Russian brothers. That is who is flying here, now. When we get to the Med, as I suspect we will, it has the chance to draw in many more casual western flyers as the plane set will appeal to them much more. I don't want them to go, "Eh, too hard. I'm sticking with WT." There are lots of arguments about theater, players and how to draw them in but that is for another thread. My point is, let's not lose the ones we do get as soon as we get them. An easy mode and a better normal mode could provide dividends in recruiting new players to MP over here.

 

As you can see from the OP, my main focus is on improving MP Normal settings. Secondary concern is implementing an Easy mode for players new to MP or coming from sim extra-light. I leave Expert alone for the most part.

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I would be inclined to learn CEM if a Normal server as HerrMurf describes were available

Albino

U can use CEM in normal as it stands now!!!

 

L or R shift + n,m,r allows u to set rpm, radiators and mixture all manually

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's hard for the developer to keep tinkering with "normal" when it's not really possible to satisfy everyone with what that definition should be.

 

I just think the definition could use a little refinement. Normal tactics should be the, uh, norm in Normal servers. Modifying the icons would be a huge step toward that goal without eliminating them completely and overlapping with the Expert mode.

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

I don't want them to go, "Eh, too hard. I'm sticking with WT."

I don't worry about competition between sims so much. A game like War Thunder draws people into the genre with flashy graphics and easier gameplay. That will whet the appetite for many players to try something more realistic and difficult eventually. So if anything more variety of products out there helps everyone.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

OK, Mods, I think it's run it's course and I've said my piece. Thanks for letting it run a bit first. Also, thanks to all who took the time to comment and argue in a healthy way. Probably time to move this to the Suggestions thread but I'll keep monitoring.

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[TheNotoriousFNG]

I'm fine with icons in Normal. They are just way too obvious right now. They should be an, aid in close, for dogfighting. Not a crutch for basic airmanship.

 

Additionally, I flew '46 without head tracking for years and it's pretty obvious Mr.X flys with the coolie hat. It's advantageous but not a necessity.

 

These are good conversations, good arguments and good ideas. That is where progress is made. Hope to get some percentage of it implemented.

 

I'm with you on all of this. I think all of your ideas are great and should be implemented in some form, especially for Normal modes before BoM! I don't know how much control those who run servers have (I remember in '46 the icon tweaks could be setup server side), but I'd hope they can adjust the icons in some form. At least get rid of those crutch icon flags...it ruins BnZ/ambush tactics, teaching players to rely on those fancy warnings rather than maintaining some kind of situation awareness, IMO.

 

On a side note, I was thinking about how to modify Normal CEM...manual, but offer some kind of on screen assistance telling players when they're approaching the limits? I realize this already mostly enabled with the "techno jargon" that appears, but a more pronounced version of it? I haven't flown Expert in a while (I'm mostly campaign on Normal to check out some of the world with externals/grinding for skin unlocks; or custom QMB sessions with only externals enabled) so I have no idea if these warnings can be completely disabled for online sessions. I'd prefer the only thing I see are control input changes (flaps retract, trim %, gear, etc.) as my controllers are aging and do have a bit of ghosting, I need to be on top of catching them if they start to do something crazy, like fiddle with mixture/pitch so I'd prefer if that stayed the same. I'd love to see the damage alerts and limitations/warnings be disabled for Expert...kind of kills the immersion when I know exactly what happened to my aircraft rather than trying to read information from gauges/visible damage.

[Porkman]

I'd like to add my opinion on game modes before the thread gets moved.  I have been playing in the official normal server for the past couple of months, and I would really like to see a mode in between normal and expert.  Pretty much the same settings as the normal we have now, but with plane icons set to around 3-5 km (for the mini-map, fullscreen "O" map and for 1st person view) and not shown behind clouds and objects.  Allow outside aircraft views (combat camera, flyby and pan) but have padlock disabled.  I would prefer the edge icons on all the time as we have them now.  Part of the reason I stay in the normal server is because I have no head tracking, and must rely on the hat switch and "thumb gymnastics," as I once read another forum poster use the term.  This is pretty much the only thing keeping me, and probably most people, from expert mode is my own inability to afford better hardware.  

 

I really think this game would benefit from three game modes based on the following assumption of user hardware:  (I am taking an educated guess, but I am willing to bet that 99% of people currently flying BOS will fall into one of these three categories)

 

Expert mode should be the only mode which assumes the user has the full monty of hardware (throttle/stick, rudder pedals, headtracking...basically a full sim pit) and have no icons and all aids off.

 

I think normal mode should assume the user has a decent stick with a hat switch and twist rudder and can control all aircraft axis and look around at the same time (but may or may not have throttle).  Settings would be my recommendation above, full edge icons, 3-5km all other icons (hidden when view is obstructed), user choice to use CEM aid or turn it off, and allow outside aircraft views but maybe have padlock off.

 

Easy mode, or call it whatever, should assume the user has a cheap stick that can only controls two axis (no twist rudder, can only pitch and roll) and that is it besides keyboard and mouse.  I think it should basically be the normal mode we currently have, but with some sort of rudder aid that would allow someone with this setup to actually take off and land with no rudder control.  IMO this should be the only mode with the full GPS map of where aircraft are at all times, that we currently have in normal mode.

 

 

IMO all modes should have the same FM/DM.  

 

 

Even if you disagree on the exact settings I have suggested for these possible modes, please consider and comment on what you think about my suggestion of having 3 different modes with the assumptions of hardware that I described above.  To me it makes perfect sense to have 3 different modes based on these 3 possibilities of users hardware, regardless of what the exact settings end up being.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I don't remember the sequence but techno chat can be turned off with a series of keystrokes. I haven't ever used it. I have HUD and icons on in normal servers but no technojargon (funny!).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Porkman, we are pretty close in our opinions of mode and hardware. I think, however the edge flags are both awful and unnecessary. See my comments on it above/mid-thread. You can scan with a coolie hat or assign keys on the left side of the keyboard. That's how we did it old school and Mr.X does it now.

 

I should be looking around quite a bit more than I do now. I, for sure, used to in '46 without the edge flags. I bet you probably should while performing thumb gymnastics. The edge flags have made me lazy. I'm super paranoid in expert because of it and I shouldn't be.

 

BTW, I've flown against you a bit. You do well with limited hardware.

Edited May 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

My snap views in the bad old days were coolie: neutral/normal forward view, left/left, right/right, forward/up 45, back/ either straight up or back depending on what the individual game allowed. (SWOTL/EAW/Janes/CFS/Il2/'46)

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Just thinking about this, I think the devs are set in using their current system for what ever reasons, fair play I accept that but that's not to say the custom mode cant gain more features.

 

The easiest solution IMO would be not to create another mode per-say but just expand on the custom settings we have atm in a Kazien(a bit at a time) manner so that devs can also keep normal development at a pace. This way a server host, SP mission builder or SP QM flyer can fully tweak all the settings.

 

My suggestions for a more advance system would be:

 

Visuals

-a range slider for the icons

-A two stage customiseable graded colour system  so that say at range x target is one colour and at range y it changes red, blue or stays the same

-some basic colour options such as brightness, transparency (two later also based on range), what overall colour(i.e same, red, blue...) etc.

-Icon sizing and label control (Text, no text just a small dot....)

-also a option to switch off the pointer arrows

 

Im not sure about visibility through objects thou as I feel that with my limited programming knowledge that this would be fundamentally more of a challenge, maybe im wrong.

 

FM/CEM

-As murf said an auto rudder, that kinda thing (IM NOT ADVICATING MOUSE FLYING ETC, just somthing a little more to help people with the most basic of hardware)

-Auto CEM is fine

 

Also this whole hardcore is more real, blah.... learn that and this is just silly. Its all down to personal preference and anything that could bring more people to the seen will benefit the game by the simple fact more are playing and wanting to progress to harder difficulties or if u think people dont progress everyone will still benefit indirectly as there will be more cash flow, allowing for richer content!!!

 

I think people confuse the meaning of sim and realism too often. A sim in this sense IMO is an environment that can be used to replicate the real world in as much "realism" as possible YES but also the opposite!!! This is for various reason such as human, hardware, software limitations, the ability to focus on one aspect in more detail whilst neglecting other factors ............ Variation and customisation is the key to any sim.

 

At the end of the day as long as the devs dont lose track and pander just to the more simple simmers, additions like this can only help the sim!!! I see everyone complaining about numbers etc but when a suggestion like this comes up it is shot down. I see this as a good thing 

 

Peace out 

 

PLEASE NO HARDCORE VS NORMAL IS BETTER RUBBISH!!!!! every mode and any possible mode is as good as the person that flies it thinks it is 

Edited May 20, 2015 by [TBC]AeroACE