Getting the feel of the combat behind the game

[SCG_Neun]

Interesting comments about combat, pilots, damage, heat of battle, from The German Aces Speak Volume II

 

Regarding this mission, we had flown eight of our Me- 109s to look for a group of [ilyushin] Il- 2 Shturmovik bombers, and we found over a dozen of them with a like number of fighter escorts, mostly Yaks. These fighter pilots were not the usual suspects, and their markings indicated a Red Banner unit. These were the fighter units that contained the best and brightest Soviet pilots, real hot shots who knew how to fly and fight. They looked for a fight, unlike the average enemy pilot. The Yak was also a fighter that you could not underestimate. It had great speed, could outdive us, outclimb us, and was just as good, if not better, in a turning fight. Unlike their brothers in the more traditional units, these men wanted to fight. Once you engaged, you had to keep your head. The Red Banner fighters would dogfight with you, and then ram you if they could once they were out of ammunition. I saw this happen on more than one occasion. It happened to me once, while I was flying with Dieter Hrabak as the element leader. 11 One of our guys called out “enemy aircraft” at nine o’clock low. We had the altitude advantage, about two thousand meters in fact, so I banked over and told my wingman, who I believe was Heinz Ewald, to follow me. I went into a shallow dive, pulled up and closed in quickly on the trailing Il- 2, and when I was perhaps three hundred meters away I fired. I continued firing as I closed the distance, short bursts, cannon only. The rear gunner was hit; I knew this as glass flew everywhere, it just exploded. Almost immediately afterward, the engine started smoking, so I continued on. I stepped on the left rudder and drifted into a really good firing position to engage another bomber. I scored some good hits on him and the aircraft’s engine exploded, the range was only one hundred meters, so I kicked more rudder to avoid a collision. The engine fire turned to black smoke and he dropped out of formation. Ewald called out more “Indians” and we attacked, as they were below us, two Il- 2 Shturmoviks . Ewald managed to shoot one down, and another pilot got the second, both using the standard method: close in and hit the oil cooler. This was really the only way to shoot down one of these airplanes. I had once wasted an entire inventory of ammunition, to include all of the ammunition in my 20mm cannon into just one Shturmovik to bring it down. These planes were built like tanks, and could withstand all but the heaviest 88mm and larger AA fire. I was once able to inspect a crash- landed Il- 2 and I studied it closely, all of us did. We located the bomber’s Achilles’ heel. The radiator coolant system was centrally located, and if you could come up from below and attack, that was the place to aim for. I taught Hartmann this, as well as many others as I mentioned before. 12 I flew into a formation of eight Il- 2s, and I followed them right through our flak screen. Now this was not the brightest thing to do, but I really wanted to get a couple of kills. Suddenly, one of the enemy bombers took a direct flak hit, and the entire plane was thrown up about a hundred feet straight up, above the others. It was still flying, streaming smoke. Never one to pass up an opportunity, I pulled the nose up and finished him off. Then I kicked left rudder and fired into the cockpit of the nearest Il- 2. He started smoking and went down, both men bailing out. I then knew I had enough ammunition for a third pass, when suddenly my fighter was hit by flak. I felt the engine dismount from the brackets forward of the firewall. Shrapnel had torn dozens of holes in the right wing. The canopy was blown off and smoke was coming into the cockpit. I smelled burning oil, and then decided to bail out. I looked up and released my straps to climb out, but when I looked up, I saw the ground. I was upside down and did not know it, so I moved the stick all the way to the left, but the plane would not respond. I looked at the altimeter, which had disappeared, as the instrument panel was gone. Well, as I could see soldiers clearly on the ground, bailing out was not an option, and landing upside down was definitely not my first choice. As if by divine intervention, my 109 was rocked again by flak, which luckily righted the plane. I looked ahead, saw an open field, and then decided not to trust the landing gear. I plowed right into a smooth landing, perhaps the smoothest forced landing I ever had. I got out, walked away as my plane started to burn furiously. Three of my friends flew overhead and I waved that I was fine. Once I had a similar situation, not too long after this event. We were flying a mission to support a Stuka strike, and the flight in was very uneventful. I had flown perhaps almost a dozen flights with no action at all, so I guess I was becoming complacent. Then we saw a flight of over twenty Il- 2s and a like number of escort fighters, which woke me up. I heard Ewald call them out over the radio. We had, I think, seventeen Me- 109s, the Gustav models, in this flight. We divided into two sections; the first flight attacked the fighters to keep them busy, while I led the flight to hit the bombers. The bomber formation was slightly below us at our two o’clock, while the fighters were about five thousand feet higher. I called the attack, kicked the right rudder, and threw the stick hard right. I rolled over and glanced behind me, and saw my seven comrades following me. I remember that Rall had just returned to flight status again, but he was not on this mission, and neither was Hrabak. Graf was, and he had two kills, I think. I had two new pilots who were on their first war patrol, and that made me a little nervous. I also wished that Hartmann was with us, but he was not up there that day either. I began closing on the bombers, and they definitely saw us. They seemed to try and take evasive action, but at the speed we had in closing on them, it was no use. I closed in on one, about the third from the right, and fired into him. I saw the cannon shells strike, but having little effect other than shattering a glass pane where the pilot sat in the cockpit. The plane was not smoking, but it did go straight down. I did not bother to see if it crashed, as I was rather busy. I heard “ Horrido! ” and knew someone had scored a kill. I pulled up and then hauled back hard on the stick, kicked left rudder, and banked left to come around again. I immediately came up on the right rear seven o’clock position on another Il- 2 and fired. He started smoking and lost altitude in a shallow dive, and then he started burning, leaving a thick black smoke trail. I knew I had enough ammunition for another attack and I was undamaged. I called out my status and learned that all of my flight were undamaged, and six kills were confirmed. After hitting the second bomber, which I knew was a confirmed kill, I flew through the formation, losing altitude to gather airspeed, and then I pulled into a climb again. My wingman, the ever- present Ewald, called in a kill of his own, which I saw. As I pulled the nose up, I banked right in a shallow turn and could see four bombers going down and only three parachutes. I also saw a Messerschmitt going down trailing smoke, followed by four Yaks, Red Banner boys that were followed in their dive by a single 109. I saw from the markings that it was Barkhorn firing, and one of the bombers just exploded and then careened into another Il- 2, and both fell in flames. Then he pulled up to avoid the falling wreckage and almost collided with another Il- 2. He would have clipped it with his wing if he had not rolled over to the right in his climb. His wingman killed that one, and the fourth and last one turned into me. I thought, “Damn, two kills for Gerd, maybe I can get this guy.” Then I felt the “whump whump whump” as my fighter was hit. I looked at the instruments, and all seemed fine, although I then noticed a rather large hole in the left side of my canopy. Had I banked left instead of right, the force of banking would have placed my head right where the cannon shell had penetrated. That was the wake- up call I needed. The shell had continued and went through the left corner of my windscreen, so I now had the slipstream pouring in on me. My wingman, Ewald, chopped his throttle and slid in behind my enemy, who was trying to kill me. He shot him down, which was his second kill, but then he radioed that he was also hit. Then I saw a Yak flash past me from above, and I tried to pull the nose up to shoot him down, but I was near stalling, so I rolled upside down and pulled the stick back. I decided to dive away and gather speed, allowing me to pull up and then have a better look. Well, this one guy stayed with me through the maneuver, which was a reverse split- S by the time I was finished. I rolled upside right and level, gained more altitude, and then saw another Il- 2 headed east, so I fire walled the throttle and closed the distance. I looked behind me and I was clear on my tail, and Ewald was smoking. Again I had the bumpy aftereffect of enemy rounds hitting my fighter, and my wingman called out the problem: another Yak had caught me while it was in the dive, shooting me up pretty good. I radioed back that I was well aware of the problem, because I had a burning smell in my cockpit, but saw no flames or smoke. Then out of nowhere, I heard a call sign, and a “ Horrido! ” I think it was Heinz Sachsenberg, who was also another outstanding fighter pilot. He joined the battle and made two kills in a row, and the irony of it was that he was not even assigned to fly on that mission. He was in the process of ferrying a repaired 109 from another unit, where the pilot had landed it after a fight a few weeks ago. He just happened to hear the fight over the radio, and decided to join in. I decided that it was time to break off and go home. I heard over the radio that my comrades had called out nine kills, one loss to us, which must have been the 109 I saw going down. That was a bad feeling, because we all knew that nothing good could come of being captured by the Soviets. I found out it was one of the new men whose name I cannot remember. The other new pilot claimed a probable, but definitely damaged an Il- 2, which was later confirmed as a kill by ground troops. Barkhorn had also fired on the same bomber, which was the last one I saw and wanted to get, but when the new pilot fired and then finished it off, Gerd gave him the kill. That was the kind of guy he was. My fuel warning light was on, and I was losing fuel, as Ewald said he saw the vapor trail from my fuselage and wing. That sober reality was probably more influential in keeping me aware of my fuel than anything else.

 

It's from Krupinski, JG52...

[SCG_Neun]

Sorry for long post... At conference bored, so shared on my phone....

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Should it not be 'bf109' not 'me 109' (I only think this from having read wiki entries so don't hold myself as a knowledge on this)?

Me 109 as it was most often incorrectly called by allied pilots and aircrew.

[SCG_Neun]

Funny, many moons ago I did a post on this kicking the rudder comment in reference to our FM . I'm sure it was in the old 109 FM threads.... I thought it was interesting also what he said about the Yak....and its capabilities..for all you Yak pilots out there...

[=VARP=Cygann]

Would you be so kind to edit it just a little to include some paragraphs and other sort of formatting. Wall of text this size is hard to read this way, makes me want to hold my breath :D

[SCG_Neun]

Sorry...was on my phone.....and hard to format

[VR-DriftaholiC]

All the Germans I've watched interview referred to them as Messerschmidt or the one hundred and nine

[SCG_Neun]

Regarding this mission, we had flown eight of our Me- 109s to look for a group of [ilyushin] Il- 2 Shturmovik bombers, and we found over a dozen of them with a like number of fighter escorts, mostly Yaks. These fighter pilots were not the usual suspects, and their markings indicated a Red Banner unit. These were the fighter units that contained the best and brightest Soviet pilots, real hot shots who knew how to fly and fight. They looked for a fight, unlike the average enemy pilot.

 

The Yak was also a fighter that you could not underestimate. It had great speed, could outdive us, outclimb us, and was just as good, if not better, in a turning fight. Unlike their brothers in the more traditional units, these men wanted to fight. Once you engaged, you had to keep your head. The Red Banner fighters would dogfight with you, and then ram you if they could once they were out of ammunition. I saw this happen on more than one occasion. It happened to me once, while I was flying with Dieter Hrabak as the element leader. 11

 

One of our guys called out “enemy aircraft” at nine o’clock low. We had the altitude advantage, about two thousand meters in fact, so I banked over and told my wingman, who I believe was Heinz Ewald, to follow me. I went into a shallow dive, pulled up and closed in quickly on the trailing Il- 2, and when I was perhaps three hundred meters away I fired. I continued firing as I closed the distance, short bursts, cannon only.

 

The rear gunner was hit; I knew this as glass flew everywhere, it just exploded. Almost immediately afterward, the engine started smoking, so I continued on. I stepped on the left rudder and drifted into a really good firing position to engage another bomber. I scored some good hits on him and the aircraft’s engine exploded, the range was only one hundred meters, so I kicked more rudder to avoid a collision. The engine fire turned to black smoke and he dropped out of formation.

 

Ewald called out more “Indians” and we attacked, as they were below us, two Il- 2 Shturmoviks . Ewald managed to shoot one down, and another pilot got the second, both using the standard method: close in and hit the oil cooler. This was really the only way to shoot down one of these airplanes. I had once wasted an entire inventory of ammunition, to include all of the ammunition in my 20mm cannon into just one Shturmovik to bring it down. These planes were built like tanks, and could withstand all but the heaviest 88mm and larger AA fire.

 

I was once able to inspect a crash- landed Il- 2 and I studied it closely, all of us did. We located the bomber’s Achilles’ heel. The radiator coolant system was centrally located, and if you could come up from below and attack, that was the place to aim for. I taught Hartmann this, as well as many others as I mentioned before. 12

 

I flew into a formation of eight Il- 2s, and I followed them right through our flak screen. Now this was not the brightest thing to do, but I really wanted to get a couple of kills. Suddenly, one of the enemy bombers took a direct flak hit, and the entire plane was thrown up about a hundred feet straight up, above the others. It was still flying, streaming smoke. Never one to pass up an opportunity, I pulled the nose up and finished him off. Then I kicked left rudder and fired into the cockpit of the nearest Il- 2. He started smoking and went down, both men bailing out.

 

I then knew I had enough ammunition for a third pass, when suddenly my fighter was hit by flak. I felt the engine dismount from the brackets forward of the firewall. Shrapnel had torn dozens of holes in the right wing. The canopy was blown off and smoke was coming into the cockpit. I smelled burning oil, and then decided to bail out. I looked up and released my straps to climb out, but when I looked up, I saw the ground. I was upside down and did not know it, so I moved the stick all the way to the left, but the plane would not respond. I looked at the altimeter, which had disappeared, as the instrument panel was gone.

 

Well, as I could see soldiers clearly on the ground, bailing out was not an option, and landing upside down was definitely not my first choice. As if by divine intervention, my 109 was rocked again by flak, which luckily righted the plane. I looked ahead, saw an open field, and then decided not to trust the landing gear. I plowed right into a smooth landing, perhaps the smoothest forced landing I ever had. I got out, walked away as my plane started to burn furiously. Three of my friends flew overhead and I waved that I was fine.

 

Once I had a similar situation, not too long after this event. We were flying a mission to support a Stuka strike, and the flight in was very uneventful. I had flown perhaps almost a dozen flights with no action at all, so I guess I was becoming complacent. Then we saw a flight of over twenty Il- 2s and a like number of escort fighters, which woke me up. I heard Ewald call them out over the radio. We had, I think, seventeen Me- 109s, the Gustav models, in this flight. We divided into two sections; the first flight attacked the fighters to keep them busy, while I led the flight to hit the bombers.

 

The bomber formation was slightly below us at our two o’clock, while the fighters were about five thousand feet higher. I called the attack, kicked the right rudder, and threw the stick hard right. I rolled over and glanced behind me, and saw my seven comrades following me. I remember that Rall had just returned to flight status again, but he was not on this mission, and neither was Hrabak. Graf was, and he had two kills, I think. I had two new pilots who were on their first war patrol, and that made me a little nervous. I also wished that Hartmann was with us, but he was not up there that day either.

 

I began closing on the bombers, and they definitely saw us. They seemed to try and take evasive action, but at the speed we had in closing on them, it was no use. I closed in on one, about the third from the right, and fired into him. I saw the cannon shells strike, but having little effect other than shattering a glass pane where the pilot sat in the cockpit. The plane was not smoking, but it did go straight down. I did not bother to see if it crashed, as I was rather busy. I heard “ Horrido! ” and knew someone had scored a kill.

 

I pulled up and then hauled back hard on the stick, kicked left rudder, and banked left to come around again. I immediately came up on the right rear seven o’clock position on another Il- 2 and fired. He started smoking and lost altitude in a shallow dive, and then he started burning, leaving a thick black smoke trail. I knew I had enough ammunition for another attack and I was undamaged. I called out my status and learned that all of my flight were undamaged, and six kills were confirmed.

 

After hitting the second bomber, which I knew was a confirmed kill, I flew through the formation, losing altitude to gather airspeed, and then I pulled into a climb again. My wingman, the ever- present Ewald, called in a kill of his own, which I saw. As I pulled the nose up, I banked right in a shallow turn and could see four bombers going down and only three parachutes.

 

I also saw a Messerschmitt going down trailing smoke, followed by four Yaks, Red Banner boys that were followed in their dive by a single 109. I saw from the markings that it was Barkhorn firing, and one of the bombers just exploded and then careened into another Il- 2, and both fell in flames. Then he pulled up to avoid the falling wreckage and almost collided with another Il- 2. He would have clipped it with his wing if he had not rolled over to the right in his climb. His wingman killed that one, and the fourth and last one turned into me. I thought, “Damn, two kills for Gerd, maybe I can get this guy.”

 

Then I felt the “whump whump whump” as my fighter was hit. I looked at the instruments, and all seemed fine, although I then noticed a rather large hole in the left side of my canopy. Had I banked left instead of right, the force of banking would have placed my head right where the cannon shell had penetrated. That was the wake- up call I needed. The shell had continued and went through the left corner of my windscreen, so I now had the slipstream pouring in on me.

 

My wingman, Ewald, chopped his throttle and slid in behind my enemy, who was trying to kill me. He shot him down, which was his second kill, but then he radioed that he was also hit. Then I saw a Yak flash past me from above, and I tried to pull the nose up to shoot him down, but I was near stalling, so I rolled upside down and pulled the stick back. I decided to dive away and gather speed, allowing me to pull up and then have a better look.

 

Well, this one guy stayed with me through the maneuver, which was a reverse split- S by the time I was finished. I rolled upside right and level, gained more altitude, and then saw another Il- 2 headed east, so I fire walled the throttle and closed the distance. I looked behind me and I was clear on my tail, and Ewald was smoking.

 

Again I had the bumpy aftereffect of enemy rounds hitting my fighter, and my wingman called out the problem: another Yak had caught me while it was in the dive, shooting me up pretty good. I radioed back that I was well aware of the problem, because I had a burning smell in my cockpit, but saw no flames or smoke.

 

Then out of nowhere, I heard a call sign, and a “ Horrido! ” I think it was Heinz Sachsenberg, who was also another outstanding fighter pilot. He joined the battle and made two kills in a row, and the irony of it was that he was not even assigned to fly on that mission. He was in the process of ferrying a repaired 109 from another unit, where the pilot had landed it after a fight a few weeks ago. He just happened to hear the fight over the radio, and decided to join in.

 

I decided that it was time to break off and go home. I heard over the radio that my comrades had called out nine kills, one loss to us, which must have been the 109 I saw going down. That was a bad feeling, because we all knew that nothing good could come of being captured by the Soviets. I found out it was one of the new men whose name I cannot remember. The other new pilot claimed a probable, but definitely damaged an Il- 2, which was later confirmed as a kill by ground troops.

 

Barkhorn had also fired on the same bomber, which was the last one I saw and wanted to get, but when the new pilot fired and then finished it off, Gerd gave him the kill. That was the kind of guy he was. My fuel warning light was on, and I was losing fuel, as Ewald said he saw the vapor trail from my fuselage and wing. That sober reality was probably more influential in keeping me aware of my fuel than anything else.

[StG2_Manfred]

An interesting read.

 

The pedantic me:

 

Should it not be 'bf109' not 'me 109' (I only think this from having read wiki entries so don't hold myself as a knowledge on this)?

 

 

The company name was Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG which was overtaken by Willy Messerschmitt and others in 1928. In 1938 the company was changed to Messerschmitt AG. So correctly the early 109s are called Bf 109 and the later ones are Me 109. But it became usual to call them all Me 109, also in the old original so called Wochenschau.

Edited May 14, 2015 by StG2_Manfred

[simplyjames]

Great read thanks!

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Probably converted in translation then? I just thought it would be strange for a German to call lit an me-109.

 

...Give me a tiny tidbit of knowledge and look at me lording it about!

 

Oh I say

[Sokol1]

The tank  myth - against the "two 20mm is sufficient " game myth : "....both using the standard method: close in and hit the oil cooler. This was really the only way to shoot down one of these airplanes. I had once wasted an entire inventory of ammunition, to include all of the ammunition in my 20mm cannon into just one Shturmovik to bring it down. These planes were built like tanks, and could withstand all but the heaviest 88mm and larger AA fire."   

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sokol1

[Roo5ter]

Funny, many moons ago I did a post on this kicking the rudder comment in reference to our FM . I'm sure it was in the old 109 FM threads.... I thought it was interesting also what he said about the Yak....and its capabilities..for all you Yak pilots out there...

Of course the Yak is OP in his story.  The Yak is always OP when I'm not the person flying it too.

[BlueHeron]

That was exciting to read.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 

I've read combat accounts before where it mentions drifting/kicking the rudder, specifically to gain a shooting opportunity...but I've never got the hang of this (in Clod either) I normally just do some crazy spin or whatnot. I assume by 'kick' the rudder they don't mean KICK the rudder, but 'depress' or 'gently push as you would nudge a timid kitten outside when it is raining'.

Kicking it is surely just for going into that flick spin or something? To actually drift does it mena a combo of stick in the opposite direction?

I'll give this rudder action some practice I think.

 

 

Yeh I do stamp on my rudders at times but it's often at very high speeds where ailerons and elevators have little authority. If you line it up right the rudders are very useful and give you that little bit extra when making a hard deflection shot. I think that first yak we had the other night was like that, I was probably doing 650+ kph and he was flying towards me 'quartering' from right to left. If I had tried to roll it wouldn't have worked so I stood on my left rudder and managed to put the rounds in his path.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I use rudders primarily to counter yaw on take offs, a little quicker to initiate rolls, a little slower to fine tune or spread the love around in gun passes. While learning to spread the love practice your technique in the QMB on empty bombers and ground targets. Remember the rudder will also induce some roll and you have to account for that as you intentionally yaw through the horizontal plane.

[TheElf]

Funny, many moons ago I did a post on this kicking the rudder comment in reference to our FM . I'm sure it was in the old 109 FM threads.... I thought it was interesting also what he said about the Yak....and its capabilities..for all you Yak pilots out there...

 

JagdNeun,  you need to be careful about this.  The excerpt you posted, while excellent anecdotal first hand material, does not specify what type of Yak was being engaged.  When you talk about a "Yak" capabilites, you have to qualify which "Yak" you are talking about.  Given the names dropped by the author, Barkhorn, Hartmann, & Ewald, one might conclude that this story takes place in mid to late 1943, as the context that Hartmann's name is mentioned in makes you think he has already established himself as a formidable component of JG 52.  Hartmann didn't fly his first combat mission until 14 Oct 42.  He scored 50 kills by Aug '43.  This is a full 6 months after the end of the BoS.  

 

Based on the high praise of the author of the anecdote, this would likely be a Yak-9, NOT a Yak-1 or even a -7b.  The Yak-9 was introduced operationally Oct 1942 at the BoS.   Someone might get the wrong idea about this anecdote and conclude that the Yak-1 should be able to out climb, outdive, and out turn the Bf-109G.  Which we all know it couldn't... it can only out turn it below 3000m....

 

Please, please, please be careful about drawing performance conclusions from anecdotal stories such as these and espousing a general statement as a specific fact.

Edited May 15, 2015 by TheElf

[SCG_Neun]

Im just posting what Krupinski is saying.... Please, it's not about flight models for our gsme, just take it as the real German Ace is relating it to us...Not sure what model but theres more to it than just the plane. He is also crediting the pilots....it probably is a Yak 9, thanks for pointing that out Elf

Edited May 15, 2015 by JagdNeun

[von_Tom]

 

 

They probably did have to kick the rudder pedals because it would be a lot harder to shift the rudder with air flowing over it.

 

von Tom

[Dakpilot]

'Kicking rudder' is just a pilot 'banter' term much the same way as a racing driver says 'thowing out the anchors' it should not be taken too literally   

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=LD=Penshoon]

I always interpreted that "kicking the rudder" was just another way of saying you banked and turned the plane aggressively. 

 

When I use full stick deflection to put the plane in a bank for a turn or a reversal I have to "kick" the rudder in the start of the bank and ease back when desired bank angle is established to stay coordinated. With the roll rate of these fighters you only have to apply increased rudder for a small amount of time so it kinda becomes a kicking motion. 

[SCG_Neun]

'Kicking rudder' is just a pilot 'banter' term much the same way as a racing driver says 'thowing out the anchors' it should not be taken to literally.

Cheers Dakpilot

Thanks for that insight. That makes sense...

I always interpreted that "kicking the rudder" was just another way of saying you banked and turned the plane aggressively.

 

When I use full stick deflection to put the plane in a bank for a turn or a reversal I have to "kick" the rudder in the start of the bank and ease back when desired bank angle is established to stay coordinated. With the roll rate of these fighters you only have to apply increased rudder for a small amount of time so it kinda becomes a kicking motion.

Got it, thanks.... Edited May 15, 2015 by JagdNeun

[Wulf]

The company name was Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG which was overtaken by Willy Messerschmitt and others in 1928. In 1938 the company was changed to Messerschmitt AG. So correctly the early 109s are called Bf 109 and the later ones are Me 109. But it became usual to call them all Me 109, also in the old original so called Wochenschau.

 

 

That isn't my understanding.  As far as I'm aware, ALL 109 variants should be prefixed with Bf, because the 109 'type' was developed by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke.  Other aircraft types developed by the company after it became Messerschmitt AG, such as the 262 and 163, are correctly prefixed with Me.

 

In reality, however, Me was often used, even in official documents, after the re-structuring of the company, to describe 109s.  Whether this was done deliberately or not isn't known.  I suspect, even if this blurring of the lines is technically incorrect, it just reflected the new reality.  That said, as far as I'm aware, Bf remained the correct designation for the type.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Wulf

[StG2_Manfred]

Jep, you could be right Wulf. I'm not sure whether the prefix changed officially if a new company was just responsible for a new evolution of the type. Anyway, I just wanted to explain why there are the two occurrences...

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

That isn't my understanding.  As far as I'm aware, ALL 109 variants should be prefixed with Bf, because the 109 'type' was developed by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke.  Other aircraft types developed by the company after it became Messerschmitt AG, such as the 262 and 163, are correctly prefixed with Me.

 

In reality, however, Me was often used, even in official documents, after the re-structuring of the company, to describe 109s.  Whether this was done deliberately or not isn't known.  I suspect, even if this blurring of the lines is technically incorrect, it just reflected the new reality.  That said, as far as I'm aware, Bf remained the correct designation for the type.

 

This is the correct answer.

[ST_ami7b5]

Thanks J9!

[=VARP=Cygann]

Sorry...was on my phone.....and hard to format

 

Hehe I was joking (well half joking, it is harder to read that way) but did not think you'd actually go and format it. I am not that lazy to read it as it was

 

Still thank you since you took the time to do it.

 

S!

[LukeFF]

Based on the high praise of the author of the anecdote, this would likely be a Yak-9, NOT a Yak-1 or even a -7b.  The Yak-9 was introduced operationally Oct 1942 at the BoS.   Someone might get the wrong idea about this anecdote and conclude that the Yak-1 should be able to out climb, outdive, and out turn the Bf-109G.  Which we all know it couldn't... it can only out turn it below 3000m....

 

On the contrary, the Yak-1 was in production until well into 1944, so it easily could have been Yak-1s.  

Jep, you could be right Wulf. I'm not sure whether the prefix changed officially if a new company was just responsible for a new evolution of the type. Anyway, I just wanted to explain why there are the two occurrences...

 

Everything up to '162' built by Messerschmitt was prefaced with Bf. Starting with the Me 163, Me became the norm for anything built by Messerschmitt AG. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by LukeFF

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

That isn't my understanding.  As far as I'm aware, ALL 109 variants should be prefixed with Bf, because the 109 'type' was developed by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke.  Other aircraft types developed by the company after it became Messerschmitt AG, such as the 262 and 163, are correctly prefixed with Me.

 

In reality, however, Me was often used, even in official documents, after the re-structuring of the company, to describe 109s.  Whether this was done deliberately or not isn't known.  I suspect, even if this blurring of the lines is technically incorrect, it just reflected the new reality.  That said, as far as I'm aware, Bf remained the correct designation for the type.

Agreed.

 

I found a very well researched British paper on this and how the confusion came about but cannot find the reference. 109 and 110 should be Bf regardless of the model. Luke, I forgot about the -163 and thought the ME designation started with the -210. Still scouring the internets for that document.

[SCG_Neun]

On the contrary, the Yak-1 was in production until well into 1944, so it easily could have been Yak-1s.

 

 

Everything up to '162' built by Messerschmitt was prefaced with Bf. Starting with the Me 163, Me became the norm for anything built by Messerschmitt AG.

Thanks Luke for the information....

[TheElf]

@LukeFF, not if its out climbing, out turning, and out diving a 109...that would have to be a Yak-3, and perhaps a Yak-9. Definitely not a Yak-1.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

@LukeFF, not if its out climbing, out turning, and out diving a 109...that would have to be a Yak-3, and perhaps a Yak-9. Definitely not a Yak-1.

Yes