Scripted DM?

[sturmkraehe]

Maybe this thread title will draw some polemics (hopefully not turning into a flame war) but it condenses best my impression I have from flying the past two weaks online on a daily basis.

 

When I get hit I observe a strange multiplication of quite distinct damage scenarios that I can count by my fingers of one hand if I had one finger amputated.

 

In 99.9% of the cases I get engine damage.

In 95% of the cases I get fuel leaks

In 30% of cases I get some control surface damage, sometimes more.

in 90% of cases I get wounded.

 

Very rarely does my plane start to burn (I guess something between 7-10%)

More rarely I lose a wing.

 

I barely just get some structural damage alone.

 

While I concede that fuel leaks may be something quite frequent I cannot understand why I basically always get an engine damage and even more so why I so often get wounded.

 

I admit that this statistic is a bit drawn from my impressions. I will do a proper statistics during the next weeks. 

[LukeFF]

It's not scripted.

[Rolling_Thunder]

It's not scripted.

You care to expand on that?

[361fundahl]

I just had my 109 structure damaged last night, engine fine, I pull hard on the stick back to initiate a turn horizontally and my wing folds off...

 

Next I burn and crash in a yak after my pilot and engine get torn up....

 

Definitely depends on where you are hit, what you are hit by and what you are flying.

Edited May 13, 2015 by 361fundahl

[SCG_Neun]

So let me see.....that means between 99.9 % and 90% of the time you are receiving engine damage, fuel leaks and getting wounded all at the same time?

Edited May 13, 2015 by JagdNeun

[Finkeren]

No, damage isn't scripted at all. Make yourself a track, slow it down and watch where the bullets hit, and you'll see, that the damage corresponds nicely with where the hits land.

 

It's true, that before update 1.009 we used to see far more structural damage (and before that far more fuel fires - especially in Soviet aircraft) but that was IMHO a good change. Before 1.009 almost half my kills were planes losing a wing or tail, which is far too frequent.

 

I personally think, there's now a good balance between the different types of damage (if anything the fuel fires might be a bit too rare now, but that's a minor point) You might disagree about that balance, but it doesn't change the fact, that the DM is not scripted and never was.

 

As to why you get so much engine damage and pilot wounds: Try looking at a see-through drawing of a WW2 fighter (preferably one that us in BoS) and tell me, how exactly it could be otherwise.

 

In most of these aircraft, the engine and cockpit takes up more than half the fuselage and almost the entire target profile, when you're hit from either 12 or 6 o'clock, as most of us are most of the time. Usually around half the cannon shells that hit you are AP rounds, and if you're hit from dead six, that round will go right through the entire length of the aircraft, pass through the cockpit (don't count on your armoured seat to stop a 20mm AP round) and bury itself in the engine block or puncture the radiator system. It'll be a minor miracle, if it doesn't either wound/kill you or severely damage the engine.

 

Part of what makes the DM so good IMO is, that while planes are generally tougher than pre-1.009 you can never, ever count on your aircraft to just soak up damage. Get hit, and something bad will happen 8 times out of 10.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Finkeren

[Sokol1]

 

 

More rarely I lose a wing.

 

Fortunately, this should be a  rare occurrency - this planes loosing entire (in games) parts - "surgical" cut - looks too "gamey".   

[Y-29.Silky]

My pilot rarely gets wounded and I think 90% of the time, he should get wounded. It was extremely rare for even the top German aces to walk away from being shot down without being injured. Shrapnel from the rounds and aircraft played the most part.

[Finkeren]

Really? I get wounded quite a lot, especially online (think it has something to do with human players generally aiming for the center of the fuselage)

 

I think maybe 50% of the times I get significantly damaged (enough to put me out of the fight) I'm also wounded.

[sturmkraehe]

My pilot rarely gets wounded and I think 90% of the time, he should get wounded. It was extremely rare for even the top German aces to walk away from being shot down without being injured. Shrapnel from the rounds and aircraft played the most part.

 

Please make a distinction between injuries from the enemy hits and injuries during forced landing or parachuting. 

 

I get wounded almost everytime. And sorry the cockpit is a very small compartment that is usually quite well protected (compared to wings or rear fuselage). I understand that it does not provide full protection and while I can accept high injury probability, 90% seems a lot! For your information, when I talk about "wounded" I am talking about the red blur with reduced controllability as implemented in the game. While in real life "injury" can mean a lot - including injuries that are just minor wounds that don't impair the pilot for continueing the fight.

 

I also would like to point out that while perhaps 50% of the fuselage may be made up by the cockpit AND the engine this does not explain why I get wounded so often - remember: compared to the engine the pilot takes up only a small volume. Cockpit hits should not automatically equate to injury btw.

 

Also only very rare shots are made from straight astern or straigh forward. There is also a certain probability to hit the wings. Well, at least I often hit the wings while I aim for the fuselage. While I concede that I may be not a great shooter I dare say (without meaning any offence) quite a lot of other players are like me. So how come that I can almost be sure to get wounded after each hit?

 

I will continue to record the occurance of certain damage types for the statistics during the coming weeks so maybe we can get more quantified data on this. If others participated that would be great.

[Sunde]

Just do as finkeren already suggested! Make yourself a track of a plane firing at you. Slow it down, watch where you are hit, and then compare the points of impact with the damage that you suffer. If you find that a hit on the wing causes "pilot damage". Please do share the track file, i find that the damage that i take, and my target, usually corresponds with where im hit or where i hit. However i do find that engines, especially radials will suffer catastrophic failures from very few hits. 

 

[361fundahl]

Yes and remember latency online can make bullets seem slightly out of place or "jumpy"

But you can honestly blow a plane apart piece by piece.... There is even a difference between bending the propellers and snapping them.... Also they each have their own model! (You can bend 2/3 for example if you touch nose and your engine already siezed)

Edited May 13, 2015 by 361fundahl

[ACG_pezman]

Take comfort in the fact that it happens to us all. I almost always get wounded when hit, but I know when I score hits the other guy probably gets wounded too. Its the rules of the world we fly in.

 

Besides, I think I speak for the majority when I say that, for all the little things that are wrong or seem wrong, the product the devs gave us is by far the best WWII flight sim out there and just an overall great piece of work.

 

Also this product is still being polished, so the issue may be fixed before too long, if in fact there is an issue.

[361fundahl]

The only issue is we need more planes and things to attack! I think being able to man some ground AA would be really fun as well.

Of course any improvement to the damage model is welcome.

[Y-29.Silky]

Please make a distinction between injuries from the enemy hits and injuries during forced landing or parachuting. 

 

When a 20mm hits a wing, it kind of explodes throwing debris at all angles, including the canopy. The concussion alone most likely rattles the pilot a little bit. Everything I've read about the aces, they were almost always injured from hits (especially their arms and legs) and crash/forced landing vs parachuting. For an example, Batz was shot down 4 times and wounded 3, Rall shot down 8 times wounded 3, so I guess it varies on luck. Maybe it's a good idea to not remove that back head plate in the 109. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by [Y-29]Silky

[Voidhunger]

today I received 3 direct hits from La5 into canopy of my bf 109g2 and nothing happened. There was a load bang sound everytime but canopy and pilot were ok. The plane started slightly turning to the left.  I wasn´t injured and the plane skin was without a scratch.

I looked for the hits in the track in slow time. Maybe I was saved by the armored glass behind the pilot but I think that the protection glass effect is not modeled. But maybe I´m wrong.

Unfortunately i deleted the track.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

When a 20mm hits a wing, it kind of explodes throwing debris at all angles, including the canopy.

 

-snip-

 

That is entirely dependent on the ammunition being used.

[Y-29.Silky]

That is entirely dependent on the ammunition being used.

I'm not talking about a literal explosion, but I have to assume there is debris regardless.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I'm not talking about a literal explosion, but I have to assume there is debris regardless.

 

Right, and I am saying that some shells (HE included and most prevalent) were designed for fragmentation whereas others were designed as pure HE.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Silky' timestamp='1431551415' post='259166'] Maybe it's a good idea to not remove that back head plate in the 109.

It really isn't

 

 

 

Maybe I was saved by the armored glass behind the pilot but I think that the protection glass effect is not modeled. But maybe I´m wrong. Unfortunately i deleted the track.

I have taken hits to the rear of the cockpit with and without the armoured glass headrest. Without it was lights out, using it I managed to RTB but didn't see damage effects on it. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by JG5_Custard

[Finkeren]

today I received 3 direct hits from La5 into canopy of my bf 109g2 and nothing happened. There was a load bang sound everytime but canopy and pilot were ok. The plane started slightly turning to the left. I wasn´t injured and the plane skin was without a scratch.

I looked for the hits in the track in slow time. Maybe I was saved by the armored glass behind the pilot but I think that the protection glass effect is not modeled. But maybe I´m wrong.

Unfortunately i deleted the track.

The protection is modeled. That goes for the armoured windscreens as well, but they don't all show the damage.

 

I have also sometimes been hit with individual HE shells without visible results. Not sure what to make of it, whether it's a glitch or simply a result of how the DM works, but it happens rarely enough that it doesn't break the sim either way.

[Livai]

It's not scripted.

 

How about the instruments that show the results what you do and what happend - Is that not scripted? Or how about hits to the oil or water tank what damage follow after that - Is that not scripted?  More?

 

No, damage isn't scripted at all. Make yourself a track, slow it down and watch where the bullets hit, and you'll see, that the damage corresponds nicely with where the hits

 

Very difficult to create a track how the bullets hit, because hits from AI to AI plane doesn't count. And I can't rotate or zoom the camera after the track is recorded. And I need the rotate and zoom function after the track is recorded to watch how I aimed and where the bullets hit and what damage follow after that.

[216th_Jordan]

How about the instruments that show the results what you do and what happend - Is that not scripted? Or how about hits to the oil or water tank what damage follow after that - Is that not scripted?  More?

 

 

Very difficult to create a track how the bullets hit, because hits from AI to AI plane doesn't count. And I can't rotate or zoom the camera after the track is recorded. And I need the rotate and zoom function after the track is recorded to watch how I aimed and where the bullets hit and what damage follow after that.

 

You can rotate and zoom in records and records do record damage from ai. Maybe you need to check you recording settings again and enable record AI and ground objects also.

[Livai]

You can rotate and zoom in records and records do record damage from ai. Maybe you need to check you recording settings again and enable record AI and ground objects also.

 

Thanks for the info!

 

I look again into the recording settings. I had many times this problem that I needed to rotate and zoom during the recording what was a lot difficult for me to get the best results what detail I want to see or to show.

[SCG_Neun]

It really isn't

 

 

 

 

I have taken hits to the rear of the cockpit with and without the armoured glass headrest. Without it was lights out, using it I managed to RTB but didn't see damage effects on it.

That's great, I was wondering about that.

Edited May 14, 2015 by JagdNeun

[Dakpilot]

have had a few cool 'Starred' armoured glass moments when in the G2 which would certainly have been an 'instakill' if had been in the F4, gave me a visual and aural jump!

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[LukeFF]

have had a few cool 'Starred' armoured glass moments when in the G2 which would certainly have been an 'instakill' if had been in the F4, gave me a visual and aural jump!

 

That's why I always use the armored glass mod in the F-4.

[SharpeXB]

So how come that I can almost be sure to get wounded after each hit?

Maybe you forgot to duck?

I get "wounded" so infrequently, even with cockpit damage that for a while I though BoS didn't have this effect. The frequency of this happening doesn't seem wrong to me.

And I can't rotate or zoom the camera after the track is recorded.

Press "H" to hide the track counter and then you can rotate and zoom. For some reason this is locked when the film strip bar below is on.

[Willy__]

That's why I always use the armored glass mod in the F-4.

 

There is no armored glass in F4, only default armor plate or without it.

 

Armored glass option only in G2.

Edited May 16, 2015 by istruba

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

There is no armored glass in F4, only default armor plate or without it.

 

Armored glass option only in G2.

 

Uh, no..?

 

There certainly is an armored glass windscreen option in the F4.

 

Bf109 F4 unlocks:

• No headrest.
• 4X50SC bombs.
• Armored windscreen.
• 1X250SC bomb.
• 2X15mm gunpods.
• 2X20mm gunpods.

[Willy__]

Uh, no..?   There certainly is an armored glass windscreen option in the F4.

 

The armored glass which we were refering was the one at the back of your head, not the windscreen. In the F4 you dont have the option of the armored glass, but you can remove the plating selecting the "No headrest." unlock, something most of us do due to the improved visibility.

 

This one:

 

Edited May 16, 2015 by istruba

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

The armored glass which we were refering was the one at the back of your head, not the windscreen. In the F4 you dont have the option of the armored glass, but you can remove the plating selecting the "No headrest." unlock, something most of us do due to the improved visibility.

 

-snip-

 

That may be what you're referring to but Luke and Dakpilot were referring to the frontal armored glass.

 

This is evident by Dak having said "a few cool 'Starred' armoured glass moments" and "certainly have been an 'instakill' if had been in the F4" - there is no physical damage model for the Gallandpanzer so the only logical deduction is that they were both referring to frontal armored glass..

Edited May 17, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[Willy__]

This is evident by Dak having said "a few cool 'Starred' armoured glass moments" and "certainly have been an 'instakill' if had been in the F4" - there is no physical damage model for the Gallandpanzer so the only logical deduction is that they were both referring to frontal armored glass..

 

To me, as I understood (I could be wrong), Luke was talking about the windscreen and Dakpilot was talking about the backplate/armored glass, but keeping on this is just pointless, let just get back to the topic.

 

Since 1.010 I got a lot more variation of damage, going from fuel leaks, engine and weapon damage, radiator leaks to lost control surfaces, also got shot up in the oxygen system only once, if it were on the earlier patches I would be dead/caught fire. Also, I dont keep track how many times I got wounded, but I dont think its excessive. Most of my kills before 1.010 was due to fires, now after the patch most of my kills are divided mainly in two categories: engine damage and shooting the control surfaces (mainly elevators and rudder).

 

Btw, I wonder if the headrest of the 190 is bulletproof ? Anyone know about this ?

Edited May 17, 2015 by istruba

[Dakpilot]

Just to clarify I was talking about the default G2 and F4, and the front windscreen, it was quite cool to get a big bang and a starred bullet impact right 'between the eyes' in the G2,

 

you can fit the armoured glass to the F4, but if I had been in a standard F4 that would have been the end for me in that flight, as it was I was able to RTB with a bit limited visibility, nice immersion and DM in that aspect

 

Cheers Dakpilot