Weathering?

[Finkeren]

I know this has been discussed before some months ago, but I still think about it from time to time.

 

Most aircraft skins in BoS, both the 'official' ones and custom skins, display the planes as heavily weathered with flaking paint, dirt and grime all over, large amounts of black residue behind the exhaust stacks and even around the gun barrels.

 

While I admit, that this does fit nicely into the atmosphere of war and the sense of operating under primitive conditions, it's most likely pretty far from the truth. If you study original colour photos of WW2 aircraft in active service, they hardly ever appear particularly weathered or even very dirty, in fact they often appear almost brand new, which they propably were.

 

It's a well known fact, that combat aircraft in WW2 in all air forces had quite short service lives before being either destroyed, written off or send to the rear echelons for a complete overhaul. I once calculated (based on Wikipedias numbers on serviceable aircraft against the total number of produced aircraft) that the average service life throughout the war of a single-seat fighter in the Luftwaffe was around 5-8 weeks. That means, that at any given time, the majority of LW fighters at the frontline were less than 2 months old and a significant portion even less than that.

I have made no such calculations for VVS aircraft, but I find it unlikely, that they had longer average service lives than their German counterparts.

 

I understand ofc, that flying under war conditions and the great frequency of missions would wear down much more in the aircraft than under peace time conditions. Especially dirt and grime would collect much faster on the airframes when operating from primitive aerodromes.

 

Still, the amount of weathering in BoS seems excessive to me, especially the black residue from the exhaust and the peeling off of paint.

 

What do you think? Should the amount of weathering be reduced(if posible) to better reflect the fact that most of these planes were brand new?

[sallee]

I have to say I'm with you there. Service life of aircraft on the Eastern front was not too long on average. The conditions were pretty awful and starting cold engines will have produced a bit of muck, but I think weathering may be a bit overdone...having said which, it looks pretty cool. The standard of paint was not like modern materials, so I might expect some heavy wearing. The Soviet winter distemper was notoriously awful stuff, so I'd exect that to look pretty shoddy after a short time.

[senseispcc]

I should also think that in WW2 planes did weather slowly and only during short period of intense use of the planes.

But the picture taken by official photograph in a propaganda view so planes should always be in good order but the real pictures are the one of enemy (not friendly) planes and judge the state pf aircrafts how where very clean. 

The planes in the game are mostly in my opinion to much in a dirty state

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by senseispcc

[pilotpierre]

Personally I like them weathered.

[smink1701]

Personally I like them weathered.

Word

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

Personally I like them weathered.

Word for Word !

[Bearcat]

I know this has been discussed before some months ago, but I still think about it from time to time.

 

Most aircraft skins in BoS, both the 'official' ones and custom skins, display the planes as heavily weathered with flaking paint, dirt and grime all over, large amounts of black residue behind the exhaust stacks and even around the gun barrels.

 

While I admit, that this does fit nicely into the atmosphere of war and the sense of operating under primitive conditions, it's most likely pretty far from the truth. If you study original colour photos of WW2 aircraft in active service, they hardly ever appear particularly weathered or even very dirty, in fact they often appear almost brand new, which they propably were.

 

It's a well known fact, that combat aircraft in WW2 in all air forces had quite short service lives before being either destroyed, written off or send to the rear echelons for a complete overhaul. I once calculated (based on Wikipedias numbers on serviceable aircraft against the total number of produced aircraft) that the average service life throughout the war of a single-seat fighter in the Luftwaffe was around 5-8 weeks. That means, that at any given time, the majority of LW fighters at the frontline were less than 2 months old and a significant portion even less than that.

I have made no such calculations for VVS aircraft, but I find it unlikely, that they had longer average service lives than their German counterparts.

 

I understand ofc, that flying under war conditions and the great frequency of missions would wear down much more in the aircraft than under peace time conditions. Especially dirt and grime would collect much faster on the airframes when operating from primitive aerodromes.

 

Still, the amount of weathering in BoS seems excessive to me, especially the black residue from the exhaust and the peeling off of paint.

 

What do you think? Should the amount of weathering be reduced(if posible) to better reflect the fact that most of these planes were brand new?

 

The weather layers are in the templates.. If you want a factory fresh paint job you can get one if you know how to skin. Things like that are up to the individual.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Every plane is weathered at some point after usage. a good maintianed plane has only slight weathering which is not visible in the distance but from far. In BoS small, ver fine weathering can't be modeled due to texture resolution limitations.

 

Other than that I'd say gun smoke and paint chicks are usually overdone when it comes to wetahering. Exhaust smoke on the other hand is and should be well visible. How visible depends on maintanance of course but you probably couldn't clean it up perfectly.

 

Don't know if there are any high res close up pictures from WW2 which could show weathering in detail of a machine in action. I guess most pics floating around were rather shot during preparation or breaktime rather than during combat.

 

Edit: Foudn this pic of Bf 109 Rote 13 again from afterflight. You can sure assume it's well maintained.

 

Now compare that to the Skyraider below. The difference should be clearly visible.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Finkeren]

I see what you mean 5stuka, but keep in mind, that the Skyraider in that picture has likely seen many more flight hours since its last paintjob than the average WW2 combat aircraft got to see in its entire service life. And still, even on that (supposedly) poorly maintained machine, the 'weathering' consists of nothing but dirt, grime and exhaust residue. There is none of the flaking paint that we see in BoS skins.

[Finkeren]

Tried to do a quick image search for color photos of WW2 aircraft in service (weathering is hard to make out in B/W) and these are some of the results. I found very few images, where the aircraft looked 'dirty' or had significant exhaust residue and almost none that showed any flaking of the paint:

 

This B-17 has clealy been in service long enough to get re-named, still there is no flaking paint to be seen.

These P-51s appear to be factory fresh, but you'll notice almost no difference to the planes that are in service.

Notice there's hardly any of the black colouring along the wing root, that we see so clearly in virtually every BF 109 skin.

 

The one kind of weathering, that we do see in these images is a general bleaching of the colours due to exposure to sunligt (especially apparent in the picture of the B-17 that had its original name painted over) This makes a lot of sense, since many of these aircraft spent most of their time parked outdoors. Perhaps we should focus on recreating the uneven bleaching of the paint rather than have the paint peeling off?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

The one picture I managed to find during my quick search which showed some flaking of paint was this:

 

And that's still a far cry from what we see in BoS.

[Finkeren]

Again: All of this is not to say, that we absolutely should go out and change existing skins or have no weathering on new skins we make. I personally like the weathered look and I'm not completely sure I want to change it. In ClOD the planes do seem to look 'plastic'-like and artificial, when you set the weathering to zero.

 

But I think, that it's interesting to discuss these things, and whether or not we are willing to sacrifice a little historical accuracy for the sake of atmosphere.

[Dakpilot]

Agree a bit about the weathering, but operating in the climatic conditions in the battle portrayed by the game was a lot different to a cosy Luftwaffe French base. allied bases even some forward ones were rarely short of personnel and materials, there is also a lot of evidence for Soviet paint and primers of that were not performing well at all, with the priority being on simply serviceable aircraft rather than finish, I think the whole logistical element of the Russian front war and weather conditions are very different from examples in other theatres. Simply finding water and cleaning materials at -40 when in a 'combat' situation was hard enough.

 

I would be embarrassed to post some pictures of the aircraft I flew even after a short period of heavy activity  and those being in easier conditions than seen at the frontline in Stalingrad or similar theatres.

 

Cheers dakpilot

[Finkeren]

I agree about the harsh conditions on the Eastern Front propably taking a bigger toll on the aircraft, but would it really cause the paint of the aircraft to just peel off?

 

Let's look at some aircraft in service on the Eastern Front or similarly harsh conditions like the desert or dusty airfields in southern Italy:

 

Image in low quality, but the 190s appear to be in mint condition and quite shiny.

This Ju 52 might be dirty, but there's no paint flaking off.

 

No paint missing but some exhaust marks.

 

Obvious scratches, where the ground crew and pilots have put their feet near the wing root, but nothing else.

 

Here we finally have some proper scratches, but very little despite the plane obviously being well used and very dirty.

[Finkeren]

Compare to a typical skin in BoS:

 

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Defiantly a "personal taste" thing ..... As Bear said, skin or have it skinned like you like ....

 

Chief

[SCG_Neun]

Good points Finkeren.  

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

As said the paint picks are a little overdone in my opinion. They should be limited to fine scratches but again texture resolution maxes it difficult to acchieve that (1 px wide scratches look silly and artificial)

 

As for the exhaust gases it really depends on the plane and amount of usage. A plane with healthy engine will pop out dark brone to black smoke leaving it's mark on the airframe. Those gases are hot so they additionally damage the paint beneth.

 

The point about climat conditions is well valid as well. On a sunny day above a snowy landscape the sunlight intensity is immense. Not to mention the thermal factors damaging the paint.

 

Still I think german paint was quite tough and didnt pop off the way it's visualized ingame.

 

The thing about weathering skins really reminds me ofbscale model builders. Some just try things that look cool like rusty tank tracks, others go ahead shifting their mind about whats realistic and compare it to pictures and historical refference.

 

Than there is a vast variaty of tecniqs to acchieve a certain effect provided you have the skill to use them.

 

The skins ingane probably combine elements of both.

[LukeFF]

Well, then there's the Pacific:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Context is everything.

[Finkeren]

Yes, I definately remember seing a lot of those pics of Japanese aircraft with the paint peeling off. I would've mentioned that as well.

 

The thing is: I've only ever really seen it on IJN/IJA aircraft, not even on USN/USAAF planes operating under the same conditions (though they often show extremely heavy bleaching), so I really wonder why the Japanese aircraft seem to have suffered from this to such an extent.

 

Did they use some truly awful paint that just didn't bind on metal surfaces or what?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Finkeren

[SCG_Neun]

Pacific.....sand....wind......salt.  Just a different environment altogether.  Also, cultural outlook and allocation of manpower based on priorities might have played a role as well.  Bottom line is my 109 needs to look cleaner.  I'm having mine washed and buffed as I type this.......Guys are complaining about the subzero temperatures...."wimps"...

[Elem]

Note that the Japanese a/c in the above photos show bare aluminium below which indicates that these a/c were painted in the field WITHOUT cromate primer. This article explains in good detail.....

 

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/weathering_question.htm

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Also the composition pf the paint is important. In late war stage germany lacked gas and thus mixed paint with water and other fluid. As result the paint became less occupant and resisting.

 

Without proper primer any paint has a hard time sticking to theor surface though, even more under pacific conditions.

[Finkeren]

Note that the Japanese a/c in the above photos show bare aluminium below which indicates that these a/c were painted in the field WITHOUT cromate primer. This article explains in good detail.....

 

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/weathering_question.htm

Thanks! That's exactly the explanation I was looking for

[Willy__]

I think its more of a personal matter, but I wouldnt complain if we got a cleaner 190 

 

 

Is this a early 190 or something ? Its missing his cannons!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2015 by istruba

[Hr_Rossi]

almost all of These Photos are colorized and surley unusable as reference for wathering and paintings !

[Dr_Molenbeek]

"Is this a early 190 or something ? Its missing his cannons!"

 

I don't know why it does not have cannons, but it looks like an A-5, for sure.

[Willy__]

 

 

almost all of These Photos are colorized and surley unusable as reference for wathering and paintings !

 

For coloring yes, but in the matter as they were talking, about paint peeling off the aircraft, like on those japanese planes, I think the use of colorized pictures still valid.

[sallee]

Note that the Japanese a/c in the above photos show bare aluminium below which indicates that these a/c were painted in the field WITHOUT cromate primer. This article explains in good detail.....

 

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/weathering_question.htm

Quite. There was a batch of Whirlwinds which had no primer applied and they look terrible! I'll try to find pics when I get home.

[Aufpassen]

Well, if I take a one day old car for an off-road drive, it is going to be VERY dirty. If I am not mistaken, weather conditions were not that great winter 41-42.

Having a few planes standing around with running engines on improvised airfields is going to throw up a lot of dirt.

My assumption, on the eastern front,  these planes were covered in dirt and dust most of the time.

Chipped paint is another matter.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Aufpassen

[Finkeren]

Yeah, no question about dirt, it's the chipped paint and heavy exhaust marks, I'm unsure about.

[sallee]

 

 

[Urra]

I agree about the harsh conditions on the Eastern Front propably taking a bigger toll on the aircraft, but would it really cause the paint of the aircraft to just peel off?

 

Here we finally have some proper scratches, but very little despite the plane obviously being well used and very dirty.

The above shows some black soot like we have in game above wing but below cockpit canopy...seems like...

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Is this a early 190 or something ? Its missing his cannons!

 

It is a captured Fw 190 being flown in the United States (Wright Patterson?) for evaluation. The incorrect crosses on the wings and fuselage are retouched by the censors.  

Edited May 5, 2015 by HerrMurf

[sallee]

Well, if I take a one day old car for an off-road drive, it is going to be VERY dirty. If I am not mistaken, weather conditions were not that great winter 41-42.

Having a few planes standing around with running engines on improvised airfields is going to throw up a lot of dirt.

My assumption, on the eastern front,  these planes were covered in dirt and dust most of the time.

Chipped paint is another matter.

Love the avatar. Is it something you own?

[Potenz]

If i recall correctly i read some where that weathering and paint peeling becomes more noticeable 

in the late state of the war, when paints and primers becomes less quality and more rushed, as seen

in pacific photos, and in the case of the black fumes marks, that should depend on the type of fuel

and the tunning of the engine.

 

I will make a factory new skin and do a comparison between weathered and brand new

Edited May 6, 2015 by Erg./JG54_Potenz

[C-Bag]

Most of the chipping I see on VVS a/c is on the inspection panels and it all looks like as a mechanic what I would expect to see. Unlike the LW a/c the front cowling was removed and set probably on the ground while working on the engine and guns. They were pretty flimsy looking too. And depending on how you applied the paint you might have to chip off the paint to get your tools to engage the fasteners that hold those panels on. Not to mention having to pry open panels that didn't want to come loose.

 

Most of the photos shown look either retouched or purposely of fresh aircraft. Why would you want ratty looking stuff in photos that are being taken for taxpayers back home? Especially the pics of the bombers. While going to aircraft school I had a neighbor who was a B-24 mechanic and the horror stories he told me of trying to keep those radials serviced made me glad I didn't have to work on them.

 

Someplace in my wanderings I was reading how VVS a/c were notorious for oil leaks and the pic showed the belly of a fighter (can't remember if it was a LAGG, or Yak) and the whole belly was just black. That to me would be particularly scary on a wood based airframe.