The future looks better all the time.

[ShamrockOneFive]

It takes a technician to make a game engine. It takes an artist to design gameplay. It's tricky when a technician tries to do both.

 

So true. Confront this type of issue at work. I do think that BoS was created by artists as much as it was by programmers - the feeling of flight and the immersiveness that BoS has is far above anything else I've experienced and that would have taken both artistry and programming ability. Something that I'm still impressed by.

 

But gameplay design is another area of artistry that the new IL-2 series still needs some help on. I'm hoping they are listening and that BoS and BoM will benefit in the long run.

 

And on top of that it takes money. Hence the high preorder prices many payed willingly only to see this project growing further.

 

Coops are definetly interesting but should not be seen as a substitude for big PvP server mission. Ideally we could instead have both and please all folks equally.

 

I doubt anyone will ask for one over the other. Both are pretty high on most peoples lists I would make a pretty solid guess at. The thing with player limits is that its kind of been artificially imposed and I'd like to see the devs open it up and see if we can make it work on the available server hardware that some of us are capable of throwing at this. Call it a beta test with no support over 48 players... whatever... I know people would like to try and flight simmers are better at tinkering than any other gamer.

 

As it stands were trying to make dogfight servers into coop servers and doing a decent job of it.

 

I'm maintaining my optimism in this. We have great new content for BoS coming and BoM too. Meanwhile I'm going to make the assumption that the programmers are about as busy as the artists are. I haven't seen anything to suggest that support isn't on-going and I will maintain that my glass for now is half full.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ShamrockOneFive

[6./ZG26_Custard]

As it's already been pointed out, the MP numbers for the current serious WWII flight sims are minuscule compared to the top game lists across steam and other gaming charts websites. 

 

It has also been pointed out time and again that IL2,  IL21946 and CLOD have had years and 1000's of mod of hours to develop and are still not perfect. Ironically for all that effort they have almost virtually identical MP numbers.

 

 

 

As it stands were trying to make dogfight servers into coop servers and doing a decent job of it. I'm maintaining my optimism in this. We have great new content for BoS coming and BoM too. Meanwhile I'm going to make the assumption that the programmers are about as busy as the artists are. I haven't seen anything to suggest that support isn't on-going and I will maintain that my glass for now is half full.

 

I'm with Shamrock on this, I just hope more folks join the party because you never know they may end up enjoying themselves.

[Guest deleted@30725]

It takes a lot of skill for new players to flight sims to even leave the ground. Good players then fly circles around these new players who then get frustrated and quit.

 

The players in MP is not the problem, it's designing in servers for new players that don't feel intimidated for afraid to try and then be bad in a server and for the community to support new players who ask seemingly stupid questions and find it hard to fly initially.

 

Most flight sims take an amount of time to even be able to fly around in if you don't know the mechanics of flight or have only ever flown jets in sims.

 

I did not dare go online until 3 months had passed as I still struggled to shoot down the AI and thought I would get wrecked online. I actually found my skill to be fairly good. Still sucked at shooting down, but was able to hold my own flying.

 

Real pilots would never have been let loose on the top of the line fighting machines on day 1 so it's understandable that new players are going to find the learning curve hard.

 

I hope more people continue to do flight sims, but they require time to master.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Bunny is wise with the force and shizzle.

 

I found the solution to getting more players: we need to get a director/producer maybe George Lucas, to create an epic ww2 airwar based Oscar winning blockbuster that repopularizes

......ow crap this didn't work my bad next

Edited May 13, 2015 by AeroBase

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Well we have some people running big servers for RoF and other games in the comunity already. Assuming BoS is not way more ressource intensive, which I can not think of anyway, it should be safe to say it will work at least for some people using sufficient hardware.

 

As result we'll propably end up with some big servers feauturing 65-100 player limit (likely Syndicate, DeD Expert, Wings Of Liberty and Eagles Nest) and some smaller ones with the currently (officially supported) limit (48).

 

Big servers could than host big missions with long, ongoing battles fought with objectives while smaller ones can focus on Dogfight and simple / quick action missions.

 

That way MP offers the greatest variety for people with different interests. Want to do a 20 min run without navigating? Join smaller server. Want to get into a 3 hour long immersive mission? Joing the "big one".

 

That is the ideal case and exactly what we had seen growing so well back in Oct. When I first saw the LD server with 100 player limit I was blown away. By that time most did not believe we were ever going to be able to run big campaigns in BoS and they were proven wrong. Well at least until devs crushed this shortliving dream.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[[TWB]otavio]

 Well at least until devs crushed this shortliving dream.

 

Good thing we do know who's holding the whole community back. =)

Edited May 13, 2015 by [TWB]otavio

[JG27_Chivas]

It takes a technician to make a game engine. It takes an artist to design gameplay. It's tricky when a technician tries to do both.

 

Usually a development team is made up of a combination of technicians and artists, and seen nothing to suggest that the BOS team is made up of all technicians.  The new IL-2 series is in VERY early stages of development, where technicians have to create the sandbox for the artists to work.  I see no reason that the artists work won't start to be more apparent as the series progresses.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip- The new IL-2 series is in VERY early stages of development -snip-

 

Oh... That's interesting...

 

I could have sworn that they had released this product in full and that they were already working on their first expansion.

 

Silly me. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Current online numbers in BoS at 19:50 GMT 121  across 4 servers and in Clod across 4 servers, 78. Even the 100 slot servers don't seem to be doing the business.

Edited May 13, 2015 by JG5_Custard

[Chuck_Owl]

Wednesday nights are dead all around. Most people fly on week-ends.

[Finkeren]

Still, if 121 online at one time is 'dead', then it can't really look that bad, can it?

[LLv24_Zami]

Thats strange... After reading comments here I thought absolutely no one ever plays BoS MP. And every other sim has thousands of players roaming at servers 24/7.

Must be something wrong with statistics.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Well this was the state of play about 40 minutes ago. we are certainly in a niche market when it comes to two of the most popular WWII flight sims out there and people expecting to get 1000's of players across the board  ain't going to get them. its a sobering though that a fair few people are so willing to stick the knife in when we are so lacking for choice. This is why I for one are happy to wait for each update in BoS and will hopefully watch it develop and grow.

[No601_Swallow]

Great post, Custard. 

[Vaxxtx]

. its a sobering though that a fair few people are so willing to stick the knife in when we are so lacking for choice.

That's why a starving man eats bark, because its all he has. Does not mean the bark tastes good.

 

This common statement really looks like people are giving a pass to development issues and dumb decisions because they are starving. We don't care, we can look the other way, and oh well it could be worse.

 

Not sure how I would feel as a developer of people played my product because there is nothing else new in the arena.

 

Wouldn't it have been so neat if BoS was so dang good in all areas that people who didn't normally play flight sims even wanted to check it out? Yeah...that would have been neat. But people who keep making the excuses for the shortcomings can continue to nibble on scraps of a game....I mean its the only one right?

[[TWB]otavio]

Oh... That's interesting...

 

I could have sworn that they had released this product in full and that they were already working on their first expansion.

 

Silly me. 

 

Silly us...

[JG27_Chivas]

Oh... That's interesting...

 

I could have sworn that they had released this product in full and that they were already working on their first expansion.

 

Silly me. 

 

This is exactly the problem, and is exactly what some people don't quite understand.   Improvements to the sim aren't exclusive to each expansion.  Improvements to the  Game Engine optimizations, FM, DM, Terrain, FME, Net Code, etc etc etc are incorporated into the initial release as well as each expansion.   The original IL-2 was improved continuously for ten plus years, by the developer, and community.   Maybe if they understood this they MIGHT become just a little more patient.

[avlSteve]

Yes, the future looks brighter all the time, and it's pretty amazing as it stands right now.  And if we're seriously upset about shortcomings of BOS, then it's a testament to how charmed our lives actually are. 

[KoN_]

Well this was the state of play about 40 minutes ago. we are certainly in a niche market when it comes to two of the most popular WWII flight sims out there and people expecting to get 1000's of players across the board  ain't going to get them. its a sobering though that a fair few people are so willing to stick the knife in when we are so lacking for choice. This is why I for one are happy to wait for each update in BoS and will hopefully watch it develop and grow.

A good post , i must be missing every one , each time i log on they are empty most of the time , and im talking 20:20 gmt time . Mind you i only fly expert . 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

That's why a starving man eats bark, because its all he has. Does not mean the bark tastes good.

 

This common statement really looks like people are giving a pass to development issues and dumb decisions because they are starving. We don't care, we can look the other way, and oh well it could be worse.

 

Not sure how I would feel as a developer of people played my product because there is nothing else new in the arena.

 

Wouldn't it have been so neat if BoS was so dang good in all areas that people who didn't normally play flight sims even wanted to check it out? Yeah...that would have been neat. But people who keep making the excuses for the shortcomings can continue to nibble on scraps of a game....I mean its the only one right?

 

It's not the only one though is it. There is CLOD and DCS and last I check there weren't 1000s of players in those sims either.

 

There's loads of things I want to see implemented in BOS as well but trashing the game is only going to go one way.....people did that to CLOD and the developers went belly up....maybe you weren't around for that.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It's not the only one though is it. There is CLOD and DCS and last I check there weren't 1000s of players in those sims either.

 

There's loads of things I want to see implemented in BOS as well but trashing the game is only going to go one way.....people did that to CLOD and the developers went belly up....maybe you weren't around for that.

 

No, there aren't a 1000 players and that's fine. I still maintain that none of you want to fly with the War Thunder kids as bad as you think you do... But at least the engine Cliffs is using is now robust enough not to collapse on itself. Team Fusion has done incredible work for the community over in "The Other Game" and I imagine that they will continue to do so for some time - the things they are doing are amazing and the tools they are creating will only simply and accelerate the process of creating new content for the platform. Cliffs is only second to IL2 for supporting large-scale multiplayer campaigns - that is the the way it will be for the foreseeable future.

 

We're flying a Sunday campaign every week with 80+ members at a time in addition to dozens and dozens and dozens of AI (at least 50+ HE111's and Do17's)... We've also got a working Ground Control feature for the RAF...Try that in Digital Nature and let me know how that goes for you.

 

Even when we're using the DangerDogz server for training, we're regularly passing swarms of 20+ Wellingtons in addition to all of the other aircraft in the air. Try that in Digital Nature and see how that works out.

Edited May 14, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[Wulf]

As far as I'm concerned it starts and finishes with the FMs.  If you get those right (as is largely the case with the current iteration of CLOD) you get enthusiast buy-in.  If people believe the models available in the sim are accurate representations of the original aircraft, everything else will fall into place.  This is because the punters have faith that the fundamentals are right.

 

When the developers attempt to convince prospective purchasers that white is black and black is white, people start to lose faith.     People need to believe that the bottom-line begins and ends with fidelity.  For a sim to succeed in this day and age you need a  core group of true believers who accept that what they have been given is worthy of their ongoing support.  I think the opportunity for this existed at one stage in the sim's development but is now slipping away.   If this sim ultimately fails (and I sincerely hope that it doesn't) it will be the fault of the developers, not the wider purchasing public.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

No, there aren't a 1000 players and that's fine. I still maintain that none of you want to fly with the War Thunder kids as bad as you think you do... But at least the engine Cliffs is using is now robust enough not to collapse on itself. Team Fusion has done incredible work for the community over in "The Other Game" and I imagine that they will continue to do so for some time - the things they are doing are amazing and the tools they are creating will only simply and accelerate the process of creating new content for the platform. Cliffs is only second to IL2 for supporting large-scale multiplayer campaigns - that is the the way it will be for the foreseeable future.

 

We're flying a Sunday campaign every week with 80+ members at a time in addition to dozens and dozens and dozens of AI (at least 50+ HE111's and Do17's)... We've also got a working Ground Control feature for the RAF...Try that in Digital Nature and let me know how that goes for you.

 

Even when we're using the DangerDogz server for training, we're regularly passing swarms of 20+ Wellingtons in addition to all of the other aircraft in the air. Try that in Digital Nature and see how that works out.

 

There are plenty of short comings in all 3 sims. If you don't mind the flying on rails FM of CLOD, spitfires doing loop de loops at 8000m and laser beam like .303s plus terrible AI then great stuff and I'm glad you enjoy it.  

[BraveSirRobin]

It takes a technician to make a game engine. It takes an artist to design gameplay. It's tricky when a technician tries to do both.

 

Arrant nonsense.  It takes money and time.  Period.

[-=PHX=-Satch]

Oh! Clod... that beautiful DM for example... sooo many lucky people enjoying its delights...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vVckh40tAI

[LLv24_Zami]

Oh! Clod... that beautiful DM for example... sooo many lucky people enjoying its delights...

 

 

Oh, thats how they made clipped wing Spitfires

Edited May 14, 2015 by Zami

[Dakpilot]

Somehow 'The future looks better all the time' ends up with Luftwaffe FM's are porked and Clod is much better...oh well nothing much has changed then...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

That's why a starving man eats bark, because its all he has. Does not mean the bark tastes good. This common statement really looks like people are giving a pass to development issues and dumb decisions because they are starving. We don't care, we can look the other way, and oh well it could be worse.

I'm not starving and don't need to eat bark, but saying that I'm certainly not happy with all aspects of BoS because yep there are things wrong with it. I am willing to give it time though in the hope that it improves and sorts out the issues. Clod ,1946, DCS  et al have had years to develop and they still have issues from questionable FM's DM's to absolutely ridiculous AI.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

^^^^ yup saldy, back to op please.....

[6./ZG26_Custard]

^^^^ yup saldy, back to op please.....

Yup it's improving, slowing mind but looking forward to the next update    

[=VARP=Cygann]

Oh! Clod... that beautiful DM for example... sooo many lucky people enjoying its delights...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vVckh40tAI

 

Collision detection for Clod on the ground sucks as it's behaving same as if it was high speed in the air hit (guess they figured wings will not be crossed often down below but they will up there so programmers were lazy, much like with many other things before TF fixed it).

 

But why don't you show Clods detailed DM from bullets damage (both visually and it's effects on FM with shakes and drags), then compare it to ROF where I don't notice any FM performance impact when my plane is shot up badly (except engine and some extremes like broken struts). And BOS DM visuals are horrible even though FM performance drop it felt nice and convincing on a damaged plane (IMHO much much improved over ROF's and that is great).

 

Out of the three Clod would be most complete one in combat DM, so that is seriously not a thing you want to trash talk and compare against ROF/BOS if you favor those.

If you were as lucky as those enjoying its delights, you'd know that too.

Edited May 14, 2015 by EAF19_Cyclops

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Collision detection for Clod on the ground sucks as it's behaving same as if it was high speed in the air hit (guess they figured wings will not be crossed often down below but they will up there so programmers were lazy, much like with many other things before TF fixed it).

 

But why don't you show Clods detailed DM from bullets damage (both visually and it's effects on FM with shakes and drags), then compare it to ROF where I don't notice any FM performance impact when my plane is shot up badly (except engine and some extremes like broken struts). And BOS DM visuals are horrible even though FM performance drop it felt nice and convincing on a damaged plane (IMHO much much improved over ROF's and that is great).

 

Out of the three Clod would be most complete one in combat DM, so that is seriously not a thing you want to trash talk and compare against ROF/BOS if you favor those.

If you were as lucky as those enjoying its delights, you'd know that too.

 

I like the DM in clod to a point but you can still pull high g high stress manoeuvres with your wing looking like this. The damage decals in BoS look awful IMHO but the FM seems more believable when you have taken significant damage.  It's been said before that all the main WWII sims have issues within them.

 

Back on topic again, we have the aircraft set in BoM, summer and autumn maps, further updates and the excellent work the community are doing within the shared missions section to look forward to.

 

Quoting JagdNeun, "The future looks better all the time" even if its taking more time than some folks expect it should.

[jaydee]

Well this was the state of play about 40 minutes ago. we are certainly in a niche market when it comes to two of the most popular WWII flight sims out there and people expecting to get 1000's of players across the board  ain't going to get them. its a sobering though that a fair few people are so willing to stick the knife in when we are so lacking for choice. This is why I for one are happy to wait for each update in BoS and will hopefully watch it develop and grow.

Custard,the first post I have ever voted (up). ~S~. It  Is sobering for some (like me) who have "Flying a Plane on their PC" as their Hobby/Passion....The numbers are dwindling in my experience.

I fly "the others" as well (when I have time). Each have aspects I dislike and each have aspects that Keep ME flight simming !...No need to state pros and cons !

Since my "Banning" Elsewhere for expressing my views,I was just about finished with  Simming, Forums and some of the people present (here and there).

I tried other games ! Didn't work !

I came back to flying !....I love it (and ive spent more money than I should have on it) !

So this how I see simming now in 2015.

(1) We are a Niche market (Very, very small Globally ).

(2) Amongst our small Niche community(like all gatherings of People) we have a minority of Whingers !...We all know what Whingers are....we work with them, brothers, in-laws etc etc.  Always have to be Right and always Doom and Gloom. Their way or the Highway ! ...And if they don't get what they want, they will throw a tantrum and use every excuse to Justify that tantrum !

Hence Destructive Minority.IMHO

(3) Unless the small community unites to keep ALL  SIMS alive, I cant see ANY of them Succeeding if they have to Compete for a Very small market.

(4) This Elitest "attitude" that some our community have is (to me) arrogant to "New People" joining doesn't help.....BOS forums, today ! A new guy made a post about using a keyboard to fly. He got told to go back to WT . There was some very helpful replies ,but is that how we treat newcomers ?..And we are low in numbers !

 

Bottom line for me , I am Happy that my Hobby is Surviving (just about) and I am willing to compromise on my "Perfect Sim Ideology".

I just want to have fun Flyin !

~S~ to all

[ST_ami7b5]

+1

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Bottom line for me , I am Happy that my Hobby is Surviving (just about) and I am willing to compromise on my "Perfect Sim Ideology". I just want to have fun Flyin ! ~S~ to all

 

+1 Me too

[LLv24_Zami]

Wise words Custard and jaydee!

[312_Tygr]

+1 Me too

 

Yep. Always keep the positive attitude - this sim, or others, may not have all that I would want, but the progress is evident, and I'm grateful it's continuing!

[=VARP=Cygann]

I like the DM in clod to a point but you can still pull high g high stress manoeuvres with your wing looking like this. 

 

Are talking vanilla game when hurricane could fly without wing or most recent TF version?

 

Since on the latter, when your wing looks like that, you get such shakes and FM is impacted you can barely keep plane straight and anyone with any history of epilepsy should leave the room you play in. Not sure we played the same game if you could continue combat and pull hard turns looking like that. That is more in ROf domain, i get to finish my fights in ROF with wings like that...

 

BOS indeed has great 'feeling' of DM, as good as flying itself. That is perhaps BOS best part, but it needs more to become a legend worthy of IL2 name...

Edited May 14, 2015 by EAF19_Cyclops

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Are talking vanilla game when hurricane could fly without wing or most recent TF version?

 

Latest version, and I agree its harder to fly with that kind of damage but you can still pull high stress manoeuvres without the wings falling off, and land successfully.   

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Wait for it.....