Good Roll Rate, what was it and how best to use it?

[Uriah]

I have some vague ideas and am likely wrong.

[Bussard_x]

Fw 190 has a great roll rate. You should try this. Push the stick left or right and the plane will roll in it's length axis.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Bussard

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Fw 190 has a great roll rate. You should try this. Push the stick left or right and the plane will roll in it's length axis.

 

LaGG-3 and La-5 roll better and you can't outroll effectively the Yak-1 because of the weird inertia that the Fw 190 has when it start to roll (never heard about it before i play BoS, btw).

 

In BoS the Fw 190 does not has roll rate advantage over its opponents, that's a fact... Fortunately, you can still use your speed.

[Finkeren]

There are two factors to consider when discussing roll rates:

 

The first which is also the most obvious and easy to test is the maximum roll rate, which is the highest speed by which the aircraft can revolve around its longitudenal axis at a given airspeed (measured in degrees per second or in number of seconds to complete a full 360) This number fluctuates a lot depending on air speed and roll rate generally gets better with higher air speed right up to the point, where the controls are getting too heavy for the pilot. In BoS all aircraft roll quite fast, some maybe too fast (especially the Bf 109s) but the Fw 190 still has an edge over all the others, as should be the case, the margin is just rater small.

 

The second (and more important) factor is how quickly the aircraft can initiate a roll (i.e. how fast does it reach maximum roll rate for the current airspeed) measured in degrees per second squared. This factor is far more useful on air combat since it's what allows you to quickly change the direction of the roll, which is important when doing feigning and evasive maneuvers and absolutely key to winning a scissors duel. In BoS the Fw 190 should have a clear advantage with its supremely effective ailerons, but currently it doesn't have the advantage here. At least the LaGG-3 and La-5 can initiate a roll faster, which doesn't quite jive with what I've read. The Lavochkins were strong rollers (as were pretty much all Soviet fighters of the era) but their control surfaces were nowhere near as effective as those found on the Fw 190.

[Finkeren]

As for how to take advantage of a good roll rate:

 

You can claim the advantage in a scissors duel, because you change direction more quickly and can stay ahead of your opponents actions.

 

You can use it defensively by rapidly changing direction with an enemy on your tail. Most often swerving left and right won't get him off your six, but it will likely make him miss his shots. I've often fired off an entire ammo supply trying to shoot down a good Fw 190 pilot and hit nothing but air despite being right on his six o'clock the whole time.

 

You can also make feigning maneuvers when in a high speed pursuit or turnfight by pretending to be turning one direction and then quickly reversing after your opponent has started his turn.

 

Finally a good roll rate allows you to quickly flip your plane on its back, making for a fast split-S and dive, which can be useful both as a defensive maneuver and to quickly dive into an attack on a plane below.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

If you really wanna get a good feeling for why a good roll rate is important, try playing Rise Of Flight right after flying in BoS.

 

The flying box kites of WW1 could turn extremely fast but were notoriously slow in the rolling plane, and some were also quite unstable in a roll or had asymetrical roll characteristics. This is modelled quite well in RoF - just try scissoring in a Nieuport 17 without using flick rolls, and you'll see what I mean.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Finkeren

[ShamrockOneFive]

Three moves that I find are really useful with a quick roll rate... Split S, Overhead Yo-Yo, and Scissors. The Yo-Yo I find is the best... you can counter a faster turning plane by using the roll rate and some cool angle tricks to get back on their six. The other two are more defensive in nature but it really helps.

[69th_chuter]

There are two factors to consider when discussing roll rates:

 

The first which is also the most obvious and easy to test is the maximum roll rate, which is the highest speed by which the aircraft can revolve around its longitudenal axis at a given airspeed (measured in degrees per second or in number of seconds to complete a full 360) This number fluctuates a lot depending on air speed and roll rate generally gets better with higher air speed right up to the point, where the controls are getting too heavy for the pilot. In BoS all aircraft roll quite fast, some maybe too fast (especially the Bf 109s) but the Fw 190 still has an edge over all the others, as should be the case, the margin is just rater small.

 

The second (and more important) factor is how quickly the aircraft can initiate a roll (i.e. how fast does it reach maximum roll rate for the current airspeed) measured in degrees per second squared. This factor is far more useful on air combat since it's what allows you to quickly change the direction of the roll, which is important when doing feigning and evasive maneuvers and absolutely key to winning a scissors duel. In BoS the Fw 190 should have a clear advantage with its supremely effective ailerons, but currently it doesn't have the advantage here. At least the LaGG-3 and La-5 can initiate a roll faster, which doesn't quite jive with what I've read. The Lavochkins were strong rollers (as were pretty much all Soviet fighters of the era) but their control surfaces were nowhere near as effective as those found on the Fw 190.

 

 

That second part (initial roll) is helped dramatically (or hurt dramatically) by decreasing (or increasing) weight out on the wing.  The 190 without outboard guns should have a noticeable advantage in initial roll over a stock 190 and a 109 with gunpods should be noticeably slower in initial roll over one without.  A Stuka with 250's on wing should have a slower initial response ... I guess I'm being repetitive.  I can't say I've ever seen any difference, though, in any flight sim, frankly.

[Finkeren]

I can't say I've ever seen any difference, though, in any flight sim, frankly.

I don't agree. I think there is a noticeable difference between the different planes in BoS (though perhaps not enough) I can out-scissor all opponents in the La-5 precisely for that reason.

 

But if you wanna experience a sim, where initial roll rate really makes a difference, try RoF.

[303_Kwiatek]

This is why I was interested in this thread: an interst in how to use it.

 

I was on-line the other day in an La-5, I don't normally fly this but like to try all the planes. I was flying level and was suprised by a 109 I think. I managed to break and disengage, and took minimal hits because the La-5 rolled so quick (maybe the shooter had a poor bit of luck too). But it was a real pleasure and moment of enlightenment for me to consider how the La-5 could be flown succesfully.

 

Everytime I make it home I'm thankful!

 

Very historical Some things in these game are really eastern joke

Edited April 18, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[6./ZG26_Emil]

This is why I was interested in this thread: an interst in how to use it.

 

I was on-line the other day in an La-5, I don't normally fly this but like to try all the planes. I was flying level and was suprised by a 109 I think. I managed to break and disengage, and took minimal hits because the La-5 rolled so quick (maybe the shooter had a poor bit of luck too). But it was a real pleasure and moment of enlightenment for me to consider how the La-5 could be flown succesfully.

 

Everytime I make it home I'm thankful!

 

Yep if you're getting attacked by a 109 at high speed you can turn one way, once that 109 starts to turn to lead your aircraft you can then reverse your turn quickly and move out of his way. You need to know he's coming and time it well.

[LukeFF]

Very historical Some things in these game are really eastern joke

 

Spare use the national-bias nonsense already. 

[Finkeren]

Very historical Some things in these game are really eastern joke

So you're saying the La-5 shouldn't out-roll the Bf 109s? I disagree.

[303_Kwiatek]

La5F probably yes. But standart La5 wasn't anything special here. BOS La5 and Lagg3 roll rate like maximum dive speeds are joke actually.

Edited April 19, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[GP*]

Faster roll rate = faster lift vector reorientation.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

If you really wanna get a good feeling for why a good roll rate is important, try playing Rise Of Flight right after flying in BoS.

 

The flying box kites of WW1 could turn extremely fast but were notoriously slow in the rolling plane, and some were also quite unstable in a roll or had asymetrical roll characteristics. This is modelled quite well in RoF - just try scissoring in a Nieuport 17 without using flick rolls, and you'll see what I mean.

Are you using only ailerons to roll your ROF plane or with help of rudder?

[Finkeren]

Are you using only ailerons to roll your ROF plane or with help of rudder?

I use a lot of rudder ofc, except when actually testing roll rate, but even with the help of rudder, the roll rate of planes in RoF is generally much slower than in BoS (as they should be) and I find the N 17 particularly reluctant to roll.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Playing more ROF than BOS somethimes i think what author of Stick and Rudder said about how wrong is using rudder to change direction of motion. And how it was used mostly in begining of aviation.

Edited April 23, 2015 by tomcatqw

[Finkeren]

Well, to be true I dob't use the rudder to turn (except in the DR.1) I use it to keep stable during the turn and to initiate a flick roll.

[Finkeren]

What is a flick roll?

It's also called a 'snap roll' and it's a very fast and only partially controllable rolling maneuver that's initiated solely through pitch an yaw control input with no aileron (or very little).

 

It's actually closer to a forced spin than an actual maneuver and is generally discouraged in most situations, but it's a great defensive maneuver because it's all but imposible to follow and bleeds energy very quickly forcing your attacker to overshoot. In RoF the Sopwith Camel is the master of flick rolls, but most of the other rotary-engined fighters are good at it as well.

 

https://www.aerobatics.org.uk/judging/topics/flick-rolls

Edited April 23, 2015 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

Here is Requiems demonstration video of the maneuver (he calls it a 'snap roll'):

 

 

Notice how fast it is.

[Uriah]

ok FinKeren, I re-installed RoF and yes, those WWI birds don't want to turn on their axis very well of fast. But this flick roll, is it a good combat maneuver in WWII?

[Finkeren]

ok FinKeren, I re-installed RoF and yes, those WWI birds don't want to turn on their axis very well of fast. But this flick roll, is it a good combat maneuver in WWII?

I don't use it in BoS, because the roll rate of all the planes is already good enough, so I don't think it's worth the loss of energy and the momentary loss of control. If you're unlucky a flick roll can sometimes result in an inverted flat spin, so it's not without risk.

 

In IL2 1946 the flick roll was a favourite defensive maneuver in the I-16 and a few other planes, but not particularly common.

 

I have seen people use it in BoS, especially in the Fw 190, but not a whole lot.

[Quax]

.... but the Fw 190 still has an edge over all the others, as should be the case, the margin is just rater small.

 

 In BoS the Fw 190 should have a clear advantage with its supremely effective ailerons, but currently it doesn't have the advantage here. 

 

And that is exactly, how my friend remembers it:  "I don´t recall any significant difference of the roll rate"  (109 vs 190)

 

Only the snap roll in the 190 was easier to initiate. (and this was only used in evasive manouvering) 

[Finkeren]

And that is exactly, how my friend remembers it: "I don´t recall any significant difference of the roll rate" (109 vs 190)

 

Only the snap roll in the 190 was easier to initiate. (and this was only used in evasive manouvering)

I'd like to believe that, but unfortunately anecdotal evidence is not really that useful in building FMs.