My concerns about IL2 BoM/BoS

[BraveSirRobin]

I keep forgetting what company names were on the box of that title.....

 

I have no idea why you think that is relevant to the hellish nightmare of writing a new game engine.

[SKG51_robtek]

I have no idea why you think that is relevant to the hellish nightmare of writing a new game engine.

Instead trying to change software someone else has written, yep, thats a piece of cake, IF the software is documented.

[SKG51_robtek]

All evidence from the 100 year Storm of War/Cliffs of Dover development death march to the contrary...

The problem there was that the new software was too capable, has too many possibilities and options and wasn't documented as it should have been.

 

Here, with BoS/BoM we have the opposite, well known engine, well known limitations, hopefully good documented so it can become a capable game.

Edited April 10, 2015 by I./ZG15_robtek

[BraveSirRobin]

The problem there was that the new software was too capable, has too many possibilities and options and wasn't documented as it should have been.

 

Completely and totally irrelevant.  

 

Maddox decided to create a new game engine.  That is going to be a HUGE project, no matter what excuses you want to make for him now.  The idea that creating an entirely new game engine would be cheaper than porting DX12 into an existing engine (your claim), is absurd. 

 

 

Afaik is it cheaper to build a new engine than trying to change a existing one on such a basic level.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2015 by BraveSirRobin

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

You are arguing with a brick wall.

 

I really, really wouldn't bother.

[SKG51_robtek]

You are arguing with a brick wall.

 

I really, really wouldn't bother.

In german I would say: "Fuer manche ist das Brett vor dem Kopf der Horizont"

or: for some people the horizon is a circle with the radius zero, and that is their pov

[Feuerfalke]

The engine does quite a good job. It has come a long way and will improve further, no doubt.

 

But although I am a day1-supporter for RoF and BoS, I will pass on this one.

 

 

The eastern front is an interesting setting for many reasons and it was as appealing in BoS as it was in the original IL2.

However: IL2 quickly evolved beyond that, adding more diversity, more theaters and planes to the simulation.

 

Please don't get me wrong: I know we won't reach the numbers of planes in the same period of time, simply because they are a hell of a lot more complicated to model and simulate. I know it's more difficult to develop a new setting (e.g. research, modelling assets and stuff). But even if I take all this into account, BoM feels like an addon with virtually the same landscape (hopefully this time without snow) and a bunch more crappy planes.

 

But even as the crappy-plane-lover I am, I will probably fly no more than 2 planes of this collection on a regular basis.

And for me, that's not worth 79 $.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Feuerfalke

[BraveSirRobin]

You are arguing with a brick wall.

 

lol  A brick wall with 30+ years of programming experience,  That gives me 30+ years of programming experience more than him.

In german I would say: "Fuer manche ist das Brett vor dem Kopf der Horizont"

or: for some people the horizon is a circle with the radius zero, and that is their pov

 

 

Does that circle include people with no programming experience telling the rest of us how it's done?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

In german I would say: "Fuer manche ist das Brett vor dem Kopf der Horizont"

or: for some people the horizon is a circle with the radius zero, and that is their pov

 

Like I said. 

 

Programming experience =/= Game design experience

Edited April 10, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[BraveSirRobin]

Like I said. 

 

Programming experience =/= Game design experience

 

If you want details on how easy it is to create a game engine, you should give Oleg a call.

[Feathered_IV]

You have 30 years of programming experience Robin? I really don't believe that. Programming your microwave doesn't count.

The suggestion that you are over 30 is improbable enough.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

If you want details on how easy it is to create a game engine, you should give Oleg a call.

 

And now for the irrelevant comment.

 

[Rjel]

In the nearly 20 years I've been coming to flight sim forums, I wonder if there's been a single incidence where an opinion has been changed in a thread like this. The same people continue to argue from the same perspective regardless of the topic. It's all so predictable.

[BraveSirRobin]

And now for the irrelevant comment.

 

 

Why is it irrelevant?  He did exactly that.  It took 100 years and destroyed his company.  So it probably isn't easy.

[Feathered_IV]

Five years, and it was luthier.

[Jupp]

~S~ Everyone,

 

Microsoft had positioned itself by purchase and product, above all others, hands down, by the time computers became personal.

 

They modeled the entire world, and made it open code with the intention of it being fleshed out by third party companies like Abacus.

 

Wasn't long after that, modding came into the picture and more and more and more user content was also created by us customers.

 

This also lead to "cheating", as if computer simulation is ever fair given hardware, connection, and free time variables (and FM info) that are constantly challenged.

 

And yes, I do know actual cheating did, and does still exist in nearly every sim, in some iteration of it, and if it doesn't, there's potential given computing's nature.

 

 

Then, onto the scene comes IL-2 Sturmovik. I still remember the flat tire look of it's infant state. Everyone marveled at it's "everyone flies the same game"-ness.

 

Wasn't long after that, the proverbial code was cracked and modding came into the picture as more and more user content was also created by us customers.

 

 

It's very hard to not expect or want every airplane in every theatre available especially given what the last twenty years have given and taken from us die-hards.

 

The fidelity of everything involved, the complexity and costs, of making something purely for the sake of entertainment, the risk vs. the reward, is mind boggling.

 

 

As a fan of the hobby, who virtually taught himself computing through these products, I have zero regrets in kicking a few dollars towards the next twenty years of it.

 

And, given the history of flight simming (the new Summer / Fall maps are indeed the work of a "modder" who was plucked out of cyberspace) I suspect more of the same.

 

 

Give this series a chance, support it, and watch it grow as it already has. Our friends wringing out the last few hours on their Win XP 512mb Cards will come around in time.

 

 

Blue Skies,

 

-Jupp-

Edited April 11, 2015 by Jupp

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Why is it irrelevant?  He did exactly that.  It took 100 years and destroyed his company.  So it probably isn't easy.

 

Wouldn't you know, though? You're a programmer with 30 years of experience after all!

 

[BraveSirRobin]

Wouldn't you know, though? You're a programmer with 30 years of experience after all!

 

 

I do know.  And the Cliffs of Dover death march confirms it.

[ST_ami7b5]

In the nearly 20 years I've been coming to flight sim forums, I wonder if there's been a single incidence where an opinion has been changed in a thread like this. The same people continue to argue from the same perspective regardless of the topic. It's all so predictable.

 

"Ignore" list is your friend...

 

Seems almost as if some (from my list) would buy flight sims only to be able to quarrel with other users on forums.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ami

[senseispcc]

BOS is not cheap and even BOM that is a little cheaper is still expensive.

 

But between the original IL2 and BOS/BOM and ROF series the money has devaluated a lot and I remember that the original IL2 game, the first, was not cheap also. Do not forget the  2008 economic back step that hurt all of us. The price was less but the value the same.

 

At that time it was the only really "simulation" off WW2 air battles and everything was, after a patch or five, everything was possible to do into the game.

 

Create missions, skins, campaigns and you could play single player, duels multiplayers and coop multiplayers. 

 

Now in BOS and BOM this is little by little possible also, maybe not the coop multiplayers but the rest indeed is possible even if it is more complicated than before!

 

This a great dev team and I always thanks them for the great job they did and do remember that simulating reality is impossible in the confines of a PC?

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by senseispcc

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I think it is cheap. A day's fishing costs me £25, a day's shooting £55, a meal out £70 and going anywhere in my car seems to cost a fortune. Even a couple of coffees and a bit of cake the other day cost us £12 which was more than 1/5 of the cost of BOM. I can't think of many things I do that are as cheap as flying sims.

[sallee]

In the nearly 20 years I've been coming to flight sim forums, I wonder if there's been a single incidence where an opinion has been changed in a thread like this. The same people continue to argue from the same perspective regardless of the topic. It's all so predictable.

Quite. It would be good to have a feature where each antithetical comment deleted the last so you'd only see the last one...or if, after five antithetical exchanges the entire exchange was locked and deleted.....

[Bearcat]

1. Just like in ROF the server will be plane dependent, so the server admin has control of what planes will be there for BOM.
2. When the new textures for summer fall come out you will definitely see an increase in players
3. just like it took ROF 6 years to mature and now has a free to play version, more than likely will see the same 5 to 6 years down the road for BOS and BOM...

don't quote me, as I'm not affiliated with 1CGMS/777Studios just a tester and ROF I bought when it first came out and was a wreak, 777Studios saved that game.

 

 

Indeed. As quiet as it is kept 777 did a lot more for this genre than some peop0le even realize and had it not been for them we would have far less in the way of options and many of their greatest detractors would have a lot less to be beating their chests about. That is  a fact.

 

I keep forgetting what company names were on the box of that title.....

 

The engine does quite a good job. It has come a long way and will improve further, no doubt.

 

But although I am a day1-supporter for RoF and BoS, I will pass on this one.

 

 

The eastern front is an interesting setting for many reasons and it was as appealing in BoS as it was in the original IL2.

However: IL2 quickly evolved beyond that, adding more diversity, more theaters and planes to the simulation.

 

Please don't get me wrong: I know we won't reach the numbers of planes in the same period of time, simply because they are a hell of a lot more complicated to model and simulate. I know it's more difficult to develop a new setting (e.g. research, modelling assets and stuff). But even if I take all this into account, BoM feels like an addon with virtually the same landscape (hopefully this time without snow) and a bunch more crappy planes.

 

But even as the crappy-plane-lover I am, I will probably fly no more than 2 planes of this collection on a regular basis.

And for me, that's not worth 79 $.

 

Some folks keep forgetting a lot of things.... For one thing IL2 did not move on to another theater for almost two years.. Granted they did move on to other seasons ... as is this sim... well actually it had other seasons from the start..but people seem to forget that this sim is only 6 months old. The fact that it uses a proven game engine is irrelevant..  even given that fact it still took time to get it to where it was at released and even then it was and still is an ongoing work of progress.. People keep wanting to look at BoM as another product.. when in reality it is an add on that can also be used as a stand alone.

 

If you want details on how easy it is to create a game engine, you should give Oleg a call.

 

Why is it irrelevant?  He did exactly that.  It took 100 years and destroyed his company.  So it probably isn't easy.

 

These kinds of comments are totally uncalled for .... and exaggerations like the 100 years nonsense render whatever salient point you were trying to make moot.

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

People keep wanting to look at BoM as another product.. when in reality it is an add on...

 

 

 

 

 

So why is it not priced like one Bearcat?

 

Just another poke in the eye for the customer.    Those of us that already have BoS should not be paying for another full sim just to get a DLC package.

 

No one is just going to buy BoM on it's own without BoS.   How would they be compatible online?

 

It's just as silly to me as the people that only purchased Pacific Fighters, then complained when they were unable to join online as PF was a stand alone.

 

Jason, Loft and crew keep saying they want/need our support, yet they continue to make business decisions that leave the player base scratching our collective heads trying to understand.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I look at the price point like this. £55 for BoS - 10 aircraft, new theatre/seasons etc. 

 

DCS £55 - 1 and 3 quarters of an aircraft currently no WWII theatre.  

 

War thunder free but......

 

CLOD £10 no new content another than reliance on the modding community.

 

IL2 1946 £7 see CLOD above

 

2 cinema tickets and a meal for 2 £68

 

I personally don't think that the price is that unreasonable, could it be cheaper, yes indeed but that goes for most things in life. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

And that should be BoM  

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

Hello, pilots.

since BoM will be launched this year, i'd like to share some of my concerns with you. 

Before I start the topic,

I want you to know that, I do love BoS a lot and i think it has so much potential even thou im not quite satisfied with a lot things so far (FMs and such, but i wont talk about it here).

And I wish this topic will help devs to improve the game, and successfully launch BoM in the coming up future.

In addition, Im from an non-English speaking country, so my thoughts may not be clearly expressed. Please excuse me if there is going to be some grammar errors and such.

 

 

First, Battle of Moscow happened earlier than Battle of Stalingrad.

Therefore as you all know, IL-2 BoM will provide older planes than BoS. (E.g I16, Bf109E)

The problem is... if BoM players ever happen to be in a combined battle with BoS players, they will have a great disadvantage since BoS players will most likely to fly far advanced planes.

Also, the people who only have BoS or BoM will not have much choice when choosing planes.

 

Second, I hardly find full servers in BoS nowadays, and Im afraid that it will might get worse once BoM launches. I believe BoS needs some more contents to attract more people before BoM comes out. Otherwise both BoS and BoM wont be successful since players will be divded into half.

Some people might say BoS still have enough players (it really depends on time, isnt it?), but I can surely say a lot of people already left BoS and I really believe that this happened due to the lack of contents.

I think adding contents can be done simple.

For example, adding expert dogfghting servers, summer Stalingrad maps, letting users to personalize thier planes by adding pictures into cockpits or putting decals on planes.

These will attract a lot of players.

(I know it can be really hard for devs to work on them, but im just giving you examples.)

 

Third, I think the pirce is too high.. for BoS. (I think BoM will be expensive too)

A lot of people play War Thunder nowadays because it provides a plenty of contents for free, and it is easy to access. I've seen plenty of people (mostly WT sim mod players) not bothering to try out BoS due to the high price, and again, lack of contents.

I think devs can release some free planes so that a lot of people can try out this game before purchasing, or lower the price.

I'm not saying devs arent working hard on this game, but i really wanna say there are a lot cheap/free flight sims out there today and and BoS should find some more creative ways to attract people.

 

 

Thank you.

My thoughts on war thunder is that it's quantity over quality. The cockpits are of pretty poor quality all 2d. The planes don't fly like real planes(I'm a real world pilot and own a Yak-52) Yes it's free but the multiplayer mode is horrible ie once you crash you have to leave the session or just watch others fly...I fly war thunder some but only because my little brother wants to fly with me and he's to cheap to buy a real sim.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

I look at the price point like this. £55 for BoS - 10 aircraft, new theatre/seasons etc. 

 

DCS £55 - 1 and 3 quarters of an aircraft currently no WWII theatre.  

 

War thunder free but......

 

CLOD £10 no new content another than reliance on the modding community.

 

IL2 1946 £7 see CLOD above

 

2 cinema tickets and a meal for 2 £68

 

I personally don't think that the price is that unreasonable, could it be cheaper, yes indeed but that goes for most things in life. 

 

true, the community has provided very little in the way of content since 2006.................

[[KWN]T-oddball]

 

Some folks keep forgetting a lot of things.... For one thing IL2 did not move on to another theater for almost two years.. Granted they did move on to other seasons ... as is this sim... well actually it had other seasons from the start..but people seem to forget that this sim is only 6 months old. The fact that it uses a proven game engine is irrelevant..  even given that fact it still took time to get it to where it was at released and even then it was and still is an ongoing work of progress.. People keep wanting to look at BoM as another product.. when in reality it is an add on that can also be used as a stand alone.

 

 

What is Battle of Stalingrad?

IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad is the next generation of the legendary IL-2 Sturmovik series that has set the standard for PC combat flight games for more than ten years. This new entry into the series will offer virtual pilots an even more accurate simulation of the most famous air battles of World War II. Better quality of content, bigger scale, new physics, more realistic aerodynamics and new game elements set this title apart from all which came before. We have only one goal - To give you a New Higher Level of Immersion!

 

 

for the sake of argument BC I have to tell you are are wrong, star citizen is a WIP ,BOS is a WW2 expansion of ROF as BOM is just a DLC/expansion and to be honest calling BOS a WIP is a bit misleading, it's really DLC being added to an existing platform that has has had no fundamental changes, thats why DServer and FMB worked right of the bat and the game browser is featureless and there is no ability to host locally and no CO-OP feature. I will truly see this as a WIP when the afore mentioned items are being worked on.

 

Good news is we have another choice beyond CLOD,WT,DCS (50 qwid for a plane...pfffft). I watched a video some made the other day called wet bandits and it reminded what made me buy this game in the first place...but what stuck out was he was by him self and not with 20 other guys in formation or loose laughing on TS  or hearing people yelling CHECK6! or someone say clear my  TAIL!, if some would post video like that it would help a great deal to get people online even as clunky as it is right now.

Edited April 11, 2015 by T-oddball

[361fundahl]

Yeah a meal for two here is like $14 when I can afford it.... And I don't go to the movie theater... Was hoping to buy it this Friday but insurance and credit card payment leaves me with less than $120 for the rest of the week....

I agree DCS is a rip. It is interesting if you really want to learn all the tech stuff of flying a specific aircraft... But they have no way of getting my money at the moment.

[361fundahl]

I'm hoping to pick it up within 2 weeks... Willing to keep this series alive so we can have a 1946 style collection with this modern engine. (Then I'll end up have to buy the next new engine lol)

 

I really enjoyed the experimental planes as well... Thank you devs!!

[Bearcat]

So why is it not priced like one Bearcat?

 

Just another poke in the eye for the customer.    Those of us that already have BoS should not be paying for another full sim just to get a DLC package.

 

No one is just going to buy BoM on it's own without BoS.   How would they be compatible online?

 

It's just as silly to me as the people that only purchased Pacific Fighters, then complained when they were unable to join online as PF was a stand alone.

 

Jason, Loft and crew keep saying they want/need our support, yet they continue to make business decisions that leave the player base scratching our collective heads trying to understand.

 

It is $10 less than what I paid for BoS.. which as an early access flyer I got for $10 less than it is now...

[sallee]

So why is it not priced like one Bearcat?

 

Just another poke in the eye for the customer.    Those of us that already have BoS should not be paying for another full sim just to get a DLC package.

 

No one is just going to buy BoM on it's own without BoS.   How would they be compatible online?

 

It's just as silly to me as the people that only purchased Pacific Fighters, then complained when they were unable to join online as PF was a stand alone.

 

Jason, Loft and crew keep saying they want/need our support, yet they continue to make business decisions that leave the player base scratching our collective heads trying to understand.

Erm...I'm not scratching my head and it looks if a lot of others aren't.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

true, the community has provided very little in the way of content since 2006.................

You know it has and so do I, my point is we are relying on the goodwill, generosity and the spare time of a group of dedicated enthusiasts and that can be a long and drawn out process. 

 

Many may think that BoM is too high a price to pay, that's fair enough but looking at the current game and sim market I don't.  

[BlitzPig_EL]

Erm...I'm not scratching my head and it looks if a lot of others aren't.

 

Well, if you only look at the folks on this forum I could see how you would think that.

 

There are a large number of flight sim enthusiasts that NEVER set foot in the forums, most of my "squad" mates for example, and many more, that just cannot be bothered to express their opinions on any gaming forum, but that none the less take a deep interest in their hobby.

 

Lots of them are hoping for a Western developer to step up and bring out a WW2 sim, because frankly, our friends in Moscow just don't get it.  It's a pity too, as Oleg sure did, at least during the time of the real IL2.

Edited April 11, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

[Vaxxtx]

Erm...I'm not scratching my head and it looks if a lot of others aren't.

I am. Well more like shaking it in disbelief.

 

Very high priced DLC to add on to an already content barren, RoF expansion of WWII.

 

How much will the Russian version be after they tapped the market here?

[Sunde]

Way too many people still seem to be under the impression that making advanced flight sims like this is a cheap process, and that the devs are simply doing whatever they can to steal our money so they can become rich and buy more vodka.   
The fact is that the alternative is that all flight sims shut down, and start making games like warthunder etc, since you are so damn offended by devs that wants money for the work they do. 

[Vaxxtx]

Way too many people still seem to be under the impression that making advanced flight sims like this is a cheap process, and that the devs are simply doing whatever they can to steal our money so they can become rich and buy more vodka.   

The fact is that the alternative is that all flight sims shut down, and start making games like warthunder etc, since you are so damn offended by devs that wants money for the work they do. 

Way too many people seem to be under the impression that they know exactly what goes into this particular game, and that the devs are working on the streets in the middle of winter begging for bread in between programming.

 

The only people who know where the money is going is the company, and being a Russian one I doubt you will see the figures. And how big is 1c? Last time I read about them, they were far from being a small indie producer......

 

Fact is the value of a purchase varies from person to person. I would pay $300 for a sim that had features from IL246 like a dynamic campaign, and large formations, and mods, and custom graphics, etc. etc. I value BoS currently at $9 right now. That's my value, and its probably different than others.

[Sunde]

Way too many people seem to be under the impression that they know exactly what goes into this particular game, and that the devs are working on the streets in the middle of winter begging for bread in between programming.

 

The only people who know where the money is going is the company, and being a Russian one I doubt you will see the figures. And how big is 1c? Last time I read about them, they were far from being a small indie producer......

 

Fact is the value of a purchase varies from person to person. I would pay $300 for a sim that had features from IL246 like a dynamic campaign, and large formations, and mods, and custom graphics, etc. etc. I value BoS currently at $9 right now. That's my value, and its probably different than others.

When i sit down with all my equipment and jump on teamspeak with 2-3 friends and dogfight in the skies above Stalingrad, i am very entertained, and that is what i want to be, and what i pay for. Flightsimming is a hobby (in my openion), and im willing to pay abit extra here and there to keep it going. If you value all the content found in BoS at 9$, fair enough, good luck finding a sim that does what BoS does for that price. 1946? Yeahhh no. (unless flying on rails is your thing) Enjoy. 

[Vaxxtx]

When i sit down with all my equipment and jump on teamspeak with 2-3 friends and dogfight in the skies above Stalingrad, i am very entertained, and that is what i want to be, and what i pay for. Flightsimming is a hobby (in my openion), and im willing to pay abit extra here and there to keep it going. If you value all the content found in BoS at 9$, fair enough, good luck finding a sim that does what BoS does for that price. 1946? Yeahhh no. (unless flying on rails is your thing) Enjoy. 

I am happy for you.

 

As I said, value varies from person to person.

 

And thanks, when I want my WWII CFS kick, there are 2 I play valued at that price that I enjoy. But thanks for the concern.