BoS business model: similar to RoF?

[Dutch]

Which means the next patch is on time and does what it says on the tin! WIN!

Yep that's correct mate. As soon as they sell all those scarves and gauges and guns and that, it gives them enough money to recruit another employee to make sure that the updates come out in a timely fashion.

 

Yep. Quite correct. Nothing to do with profit, and the continuing obligation to pay the workforce or the funders. Just about making enough money to bring the updates out on time. That'll be it.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Yep that's correct mate. As soon as they sell all those scarves and gauges and guns and that, it gives them enough money to recruit another employee to make sure that the updates come out in a timely fashion.

 

Yep. Quite correct. Nothing to do with profit, and the continuing obligation to pay the workforce or the funders. Just about making enough money to bring the updates out on time. That'll be it.

......sorry Dutch, not doing it mate.

[Bearcat]

I cannot tell you all the specifics because I`d risk a ban.

I wonder if you actually know that you are the single moderator here that harasses me everytime I say something.

 

About your opinion on the gunpods, you seem to ignore that it was a part of the founder group that protested against it. I would expect yoo aswell as the devs giving more thought to their posts before you attack anyone else for voicing their opiinon in a respectful manner.

 

No Mac I don't harass you at all.. but when you make statements like the one quoted above you can expect to be called on it..

 

 

I'll have to step in on that particular part since those are two points that boggle my mind in the other thread as well and I'd like to maybe help clarify the reasons for bringing up that issue in the first place. (No offense, BC)

 

Comparing a 109 without gondolas to one with gondolas (as it was often done in other posts - not yours) IMHO doesn't quite hit the spot within the P2W argument or the gondola discussion. Both founders and non-founders can choose to fly with or without gondolas.

 

So lets's just compare the gun-pod 109s of founders and non-founders: non-founders get 15mm while founders get 20mm guns. Both are gondola-equipped so both share more or less the same disadvantages of having a much more sluggish aircraft compared to having no gondolas. However, the 20mm-equipped 109 should then be flat-out more powerful than the 15mm one - increased firepower with roughly the same weight/drag problems. (How much more is to be seen but there's a reason why the Luftwaffe refitted their machines with the MG 151/20).

 

The second point is "why not just preorder?". Yes, people who choose now, not to preorder, know what they are not getting, that's fine. But with the release in spring, the game will be featured in game magazines, there will be a lot of videos all over Youtube and the game will probably be more widely known than now. What about people who just discover the game then - they don't have a choice to preorder or not. They're just late and maybe they would have preordered if they had the chance.

 

I have the feeling that some people who so fiercely defend the exclusivity of their 20mm-gun-pod-F4s don't quite consider those points.

(If they do and just don't care, nevermind...)

 

None taken.. and to your second point .. you make a valid point.. however.. it is going to be how it is going to be.. and I don't think that the gameplay will suffer in the least.

 

It has already been said that the business model of BoS will be different from that of RoF and that has been reaffirmed by Jason so comparing the RoF model to BoS is a waste of time..

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I'd be quite happy to have individual aircraft and maps added for a price but not field mods and clothing etc. I think 777 recognized that there was a limit to what people didn't mind paying for.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

here you guys go you want P2W, http://battlefield.play4free.com

customizable, everything all the way from clothing to weapons mods.

[Sokol1]

 

I "paid to win" by buying TrackIR and a 32" monitor.  Do I have to send them back?

 

 

Exactly. Are the rudder pedals I'm thinking about buying 'pay to win'?

 

 

 

 

 

These are classified as "unfair advantage", argument for some people to demand things like "WW" view, moise aim, gamepad gameplay...

 

Sokol1

 

[I/JG27_Rollo]

[...] it is going to be how it is going to be  [...]

Absolutely.

I'm certain that BoS is going to be a great game regardless of any business model specifics.

[Dakpilot]

Two years from now.......in DCSwwII.....

 

"AAAHG! I just got shot down in my P-51 by an ME262, the Dora can never get me but that 262 is uber!!!! I DONT have one , CANT afford one ! this is PAY TO WIN!!!!! aaagh!!!  you guys are all XXXXXXX cheats"..ragequit.

 

LOL

 

There will always be someone better, have better equipment, have a better computer, have better internet connection etc. if people put as much time in learning to use what they have instead of whining, they would get more enjoyment out of life.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Klaue]

Two years from now.......in DCSwwII.....

 

"AAAHG! I just got shot down in my P-51 by an ME262, the Dora can never get me but that 262 is uber!!!! I DONT have one , CANT afford one ! this is PAY TO WIN!!!!! aaagh!!!  you guys are all XXXXXXX cheats"..ragequit.

 

LOL

 

There will always be someone better, have better equipment, have a better computer, have better internet connection etc. if people put as much time in learning to use what they have instead of whining, they would get more enjoyment out of life.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

+1

[SYN_Jedders]

I dont think anyone was "Whining" tbh. The OP got a very biased view on another forum, a forum that does little to promote RoF or BoS, and brought a valid question here looking for an answer. I think the fella now knows that RoF and BoS are not P2W....result.

[Dakpilot]

Sorry my tongue in cheek comment was not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general dig at all the whining and bitching, mainly from mis-information, that goes on....and will continue to go on LOL 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 9, 2013 by Dakpilot

[Matt]

I think this topic was pretty much over at post #27.

 

You can buy theatres and some planes (probably in packs with theatres). You can't buy mods. Pretty easy to understand i think.

 

Overall a mix between the classic IL-2 and RoF. Best of both worlds imho.

[VeryOldMan]

What? Pay them? Pssh. Back in the day we used to pay $50 for titles that had hundreds of planes, rich dynamic campaign (spare historical relevance/accuracy), manuals 250 pages thick, and neat little CDs that you could hold in your hands and amazing SVGA graphics - why should we pay more? It's not like the titles these days are more complex on the scale of a million fold.

 

 

But they are!

 

 Due to the growth of software industry,  hirign good programmers cost an average 3 times more than  10 years ago, same  with   artist guys. On the artist  guys its even worse.. because the standard for quality increased 10 fold, you basically need 10 times more artist time than  10 years ago to complete a AAA title.

 

Imagine the  work on making a cockpit as the DCS ones or even the BOS ones  for each of the planes in IL2 1946 ?  Hundreds of thousands of work hours.

 

That and the  custumers  shriked.  There is no escape ..  need  higher prices per plane.

 

that or people need to be less extreme into realism so more people would play..

 

your choice.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

"Founders" give your vote:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1568-poll-your-opinion-gift-exclusiveness/

[Tomsk]

I dont think anyone was "Whining" tbh. The OP got a very biased view on another forum, a forum that does little to promote RoF or BoS, and brought a valid question here looking for an answer. I think the fella now knows that RoF and BoS are not P2W....result.

 

Right, it was genuine question, one which I now consider answered. Even better, I'm very happy with the answer

 

Also some people on the ATAG forums are very anti-BoS, but many people are not. I also get the impression there are also a lot of people who were confused on this issue: we simply didn't know what the business model for BoS would be. It's good to have an answer to that question.

 

Now whether the paid for items in RoF are P2W or not: I couldn't say. P2W is very subjective, to me P2W is deliberately introducing paid for elements in to a game that give those paying more some kind of advantage, even if quite slight. However, it's obviously a scale with some games being very heavy on P2W, and others being much lighter. My sense is that RoF probably does have a few P2W elements (according to my definition), but the effect is quite small. Although, I haven't played it so I could be entirely wrong.

 

I think this topic was pretty much over at post #27.

 

You can buy theatres and some planes (probably in packs with theatres). You can't buy mods. Pretty easy to understand i think.

 

Overall a mix between the classic IL-2 and RoF. Best of both worlds imho.

 

I agree, I think that's a really nice balance and it's exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I think this topic was pretty much over at post #27.

 

You can buy theatres and some planes (probably in packs with theatres). You can't buy mods. Pretty easy to understand i think.

 

Overall a mix between the classic IL-2 and RoF. Best of both worlds imho.

 

Maybe best of both worlds to you.  But having to grind through SP missions to get things like weapons, armor, rear gunners, scarves, streamers, instrument gauges, or w/e  else they want you to "grind" for is pretty terrible.  I, like many others, are MP only players.  We should all have access to the same bits and pieces of a plane as any other player.   No serious flight sim has ever made you grind in a game mode you don't want to do in the 1st place to gain access to bits of a plane.  That is just plain stupid. 

 

Is the goal here to have a flight sim or World of Tanks type game?

[Mac_Messer]

You can buy theatres and some planes (probably in packs with theatres). You can't buy mods. Pretty easy to understand i think.

I think that the most important of the dev diaries should be compiled into a new FAQ that is divided into topic sections. Jason says they`ve been very specific. Maybe in dev diaries but the forum official FAQ is anything *but* specific.

This is aimed especially at those who just picked up the news about BoS but don`t have time to go through all the what, 35 parts?

Edited October 9, 2013 by Mac_Messer

[VeryOldMan]

Maybe best of both worlds to you.  But having to grind through SP missions to get things like weapons, armor, rear gunners, scarves, streamers, instrument gauges, or w/e  else they want you to "grind" for is pretty terrible.  I, like many others, are MP only players.  We should all have access to the same bits and pieces of a plane as any other player.   No serious flight sim has ever made you grind in a game mode you don't want to do in the 1st place to gain access to bits of a plane.  That is just plain stupid. 

 

Is the goal here to have a flight sim or World of Tanks type game?

 

 

I think the  middle ground woudl be ok. FOr online gaming you can use whatever you want but WITHIN a specific campaign you nee to reach certain levels to be able to use certain mods.

[Matt]

 

I think that the most important of the dev diaries should be compiled into a new FAQ that is divided into topic sections.

Indeed. Lack of specific and easy to find info leads to very confusing topic and too many questions.

 

 

Maybe best of both worlds to you.  But having to grind through SP missions to get things like weapons, armor, rear gunners, scarves, streamers, instrument gauges, or w/e  else they want you to "grind" for is pretty terrible.  I, like many others, are MP only players.  We should all have access to the same bits and pieces of a plane as any other player.   No serious flight sim has ever made you grind in a game mode you don't want to do in the 1st place to gain access to bits of a plane.

I'm a 95% MP player with very limited avaliable time for flightsimming. So yes, i don't like that feature myself and made a comment like that in the appropriate topic.

 

But something tells me, that this idea is not final or will be revised (see Yak 1 / 109 G series being avaliable from the very beginning, instead of the originally planned SP unlock for these planes). So let's wait and see.

[I/JG27_Rollo]

I think that the most important of the dev diaries should be compiled into a new FAQ that is divided into topic sections. Jason says they`ve been very specific. Maybe in dev diaries but the forum official FAQ is anything *but* specific.

This is aimed especially at those who just picked up the news about BoS but don`t have time to go through all the what, 35 parts?

For new people, who don't want to read the dev diary, Slm's thread is a good start: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/146-what-we-know-so-far-battle-stalingrad/

(Don't know if he is still updating it though...)

 

However, people who would like to have a say in things should definitely have read the diaries first imho...

[Zak]

I think that the most important of the dev diaries should be compiled into a new FAQ that is divided into topic sections. Jason says they`ve been very specific. Maybe in dev diaries but the forum official FAQ is anything *but* specific.

This is aimed especially at those who just picked up the news about BoS but don`t have time to go through all the what, 35 parts?

We'll figure out something, thanks for the suggestion.

[von_Tom]

Maybe best of both worlds to you.  But having to grind through SP missions to get things like weapons, armor, rear gunners, scarves, streamers, instrument gauges, or w/e  else they want you to "grind" for is pretty terrible.  I, like many others, are MP only players.  We should all have access to the same bits and pieces of a plane as any other player.   No serious flight sim has ever made you grind in a game mode you don't want to do in the 1st place to gain access to bits of a plane.  That is just plain stupid. 

 

Is the goal here to have a flight sim or World of Tanks type game?

 

 

Grind or don't grind, the choice is yours.  Currently I'm a 100% online player but I'm looking forward to a single player campaign with the unlocks.  It won't be a "grind" for me.

 

This is a game dynamic and, as has been said before, unlocks are not game breakers.  And it's no previous serious flight sim....  Welcome to the brave new world.

 

Mac_Messer - good idea.

 

Hood

[MadTommy]

Hmm so certain game elements will only become available via unlocking stuff in single player campaigns?  I can't cay i like the sound of that much.

 

Can someone point me towards more info on this please.  What kind of content are talking about here?

[Shadylurker]

You guys are focusing way to much on him saying Pay to win, when what he was saying is that if he has the aircraft he doesn't want to pay to unlock a load out.  I am with him in that.  However Jason stated that isn't the case, and the 20mm is just a thank you.   Which I am all for in this instance.

 

 

End of discussion.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Shadylurker

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Maybe best of both worlds to you.  But having to grind through SP missions to get things like weapons, armor, rear gunners, scarves, streamers, instrument gauges, or w/e  else they want you to "grind" for is pretty terrible.  I, like many others, are MP only players.  We should all have access to the same bits and pieces of a plane as any other player.   No serious flight sim has ever made you grind in a game mode you don't want to do in the 1st place to gain access to bits of a plane.  That is just plain stupid. 

 

Is the goal here to have a flight sim or World of Tanks type game?

 

 

Bliss, seriously, get a refund, BOS isn't the sim for you, it not what you want. You know it, i know it, everyone knows it. its not going to do what you want or perform the way you want it to.

The DM will not be good enough for you, the FM's will not meet your requirements, there will not be enough objects on the map or planes in the sky.

Better get a refund and wait for release and some reviews then decide, because clearly you don't agree with the way BOS will be set up, the way SP will be played, MP is not going to perform the way you want it to and doesn't have clickable cockpits.

 

 

Please get a refund, i don't want you to feel you have wasted your money on a sim that doesn't interest you or will make you happy.

 

Really, honestly, Bliss, BOS is not the sim you want.

Edited October 9, 2013 by =BKHZ=Furbs

[DD_Arthur]

Weather flash for Furbs! 

 

Sou' westers on.  Standby for a force-niner from the west!

[Mac_Messer]

Please get a refund, i don't want you to feel you have wasted your money on a sim that doesn't interest you or will make you happy.

 

Really, honestly, Bliss, BOS is not the sim you want.

I don`t know about that. Why would you feel that BoS is wasted money before playing it?

 

Bliss might actually give a fair and more honest BoS betarelease review than most yesmen here.

[AndyJWest]

Mac_Messer. Grow up. Or go away. You are pathetic...

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I don`t know about that. Why would you feel that BoS is wasted money before playing it?

 

Bliss might actually give a fair and more honest BoS betarelease review than most yesmen here.

 

 I don't think the money is wasted, not for me or a lot of people, i can't bloody wait.

 

As for Bliss, he has told me in no uncertain terms that what BOS will and wont be capable of, he has even suggested a wager he is that certain.

 

What im trying to do is save Bliss money and from being disappointed in a sim that will clearly to him, will not be good enough.

[FuriousMeow]

Bliss might actually give a fair and more honest BoS betarelease review than most yesmen here.

 

Which amounts to nothing. The beta will be very early, far from complete, so now you have a review on a product that hammers it because of it's state which is no reflection on the final polished product 7 months down the road.

[Mac_Messer]

I was thinking more along the lines of confirming the 777 quality work in the next IL2 release so fence sitters like me can finally decide to take the plunge.

Pretty obvious that beta is not final v1.0, so I see no worries here.

[OBT-Psycho]

hi everyone,

sometime I wonder how many people are seeing all this unlock stuff not being an issue at all. I agree it will be  an attempt to induce some changes in the way we play fightsims and the good old "why fix it if it is not broken" rings in my hear, but hear me out.

 

As I understand what has been told until now, there will be some server-dedicated SP side of the game in which you will have to gain experience in order to access some kind of special equipements. I don't really get if experience will be harvest through offline campaign only, or even through single mission or quick mission, and why not even through multiplayer missions.

 

talking about online side, I understand there will be two kind of online server. One will be "ranked" or official servers in which victories and all that stuff will be accounted as experience. But I think devs stated that this would be optional! Which seems to me to be the solution everyone forgets.

 

Because even if you have a few hours a week of fly time, and you for sure want to get the most of it so you go online with the squad. but as you don't play so much offline you don't have unlocked anything and you reeeaaalllyy want to blast the sky with those gondolas. Just connect to an "unranked" server and problem solved!

 

but the server managers should then have a way so make all unlocks avalaible for all players on these unranked servers.

[dkoor]

As far as i understood , 777 want sto sell scenarios with a planeset, than some additional planes for single purchase ( La5&Fw190 sure , IAR80/Mc202 & P-40/HurricaneII possible), than release the next scenario (rumors say Kuban 43 are a possible choice) again with a given planeset and so on...

 

Would really love to see Kuban theater.

[LukeFF]

I don`t know about that. Why would you feel that BoS is wasted money before playing it?

 

Bliss might actually give a fair and more honest BoS betarelease review than most yesmen here.

 

Bliss has a major axe to grind with 777 that goes back to the days of ROF. He's hardly fair and honest.

[Dutch]

Bliss has a major axe to grind with 777 that goes back to the days of ROF. He's hardly fair and honest.

Thankyou Luke, for revealing that precious nugget of information. Can you, pray tell, explain what this 'major axe to grind' is? Is it not also the case that as the author of the 'Rise of Flight' Manual, you also have an axe to grind? Albeit in the opposite direction?

 

Not that I'm particularly interested........

[LukeFF]

Not going to get into it here, Dutch. Enough has been said on the topic as it is. 

[Bearcat]

Hmm so certain game elements will only become available via unlocking stuff in single player campaigns?  I can't cay i like the sound of that much.

Can someone point me towards more info on this please.  What kind of content are talking about here?

 

 

I am not thrilled about it either to tell the truth because I fly offline when I can and I prefer to fly single missions and QMs offline.. but considering the team behind this and their willingness to work with us.. I will wait and see exactly how this whole proces is implemented before I pass judgement.

 

I don`t know about that. Why would you feel that BoS is wasted money before playing it?

Bliss might actually give a fair and more honest BoS betarelease review than most yesmen here.

 

You know Mac.. it is comments like this that make you stand out on these boards ..

 

I was thinking more along the lines of confirming the 777 quality work in the next IL2 release so fence sitters like me can finally decide to take the plunge.

Pretty obvious that beta is not final v1.0, so I see no worries here.

 

..............

 

Right, it was genuine question, one which I now consider answered. Even better, I'm very happy with the answer

 

Also some people on the ATAG forums are very anti-BoS, but many people are not. I also get the impression there are also a lot of people who were confused on this issue: we simply didn't know what the business model for BoS would be. It's good to have an answer to that question.

 

Now whether the paid for items in RoF are P2W or not: I couldn't say. P2W is very subjective, to me P2W is deliberately introducing paid for elements in to a game that give those paying more some kind of advantage, even if quite slight. However, it's obviously a scale with some games being very heavy on P2W, and others being much lighter. My sense is that RoF probably does have a few P2W elements (according to my definition), but the effect is quite small. Although, I haven't played it so I could be entirely wrong.

 

I think that's a really nice balance and it's exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for.

The fact that many folks on ATAG are anti BoS has less to do with anything wrong with BoS .. because let's face it .. it isn't even here yet.. not even in the Beta but more to do with their affinity for CoD and their perceived notion of how BoS has effected that sim's development.

 

but in light of the first and last  lines in your quoted post...