BoS business model: similar to RoF?

[Tomsk]

Hello,

 

 

There's been an interesting discussion over on the ATAG forums (if people know ATAG) over what the business model for Battle of Stalingrid will be. In particularly, people have been concerned that the game might have some "Pay to Win" elements similar to the paid for "Field mods" and "Weapon mods" for Rise of Flight. The general feeling of the people on the ATAG forums (myself included) seemed to be that this would be rather unwelcome.

 

Does anyone know anything about what the business model will be for BoS? I haven't been able to find anything very specific from the developers. Will it be free-to-play, with paid for upgrades? Or will it be a more traditional pay-for-upfront sim? Or is the plan to have some free planes up front, with other planes paid for if you want them? If there are free planes, and paid for planes, will paid-for planes be stronger? Or will you only have access to the best equipment for your plane if you pay for it?

 

People on the ATAG forum seem to be quite unsure about this aspect of BoS, which at the moment is putting a lot of people off pre-ordering BoS. I have pre-ordered BoS because I'm a big fan of flight sims, which I see as a bit of a very dying genre, and would like to make every effort to keep the genre alive. However, I am also finding myself concerned about what the business model will be.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Tomsk

Edited October 8, 2013 by Tomsk

[Mac_Messer]

Well, apparently at least on of the field mods is an exclusive founder content, unavailable to anyone else even on buying offer.

 

I cannot tell you all the specifics because I`d risk a ban.

[Requiem]

I've had the impression they were unlocked as you progressed through a SP campaign. Hopefully the confusion is sorted out when they announce the beta release.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

he speaks about the 20mm gondolas for the 109F, they are available, as it looks , ONLY if you preorderd BoS. The 15mm gondolas are a normal modification for it, that you have to earn via singleplayercampaign.

But yes, perhaps there was a missunderstanding....time will tell.

 

The "pay to win" factor of BoS is that kind, that you have to buy from time to time planes. So ,the La 5 and Fw190 are available for single purchase AFTER the game is released in 2014. If you not buy their cockpits , the planes are still in game as AI aircraft.

As far as i understood , 777 want sto sell scenarios with a planeset, than some additional planes for single purchase ( La5&Fw190 sure , IAR80/Mc202 & P-40/HurricaneII possible), than release the next scenario (rumors say Kuban 43 are a possible choice) again with a given planeset and so on...

 

But 777 WILL NOT sell special engines or weapons for the planes, if you buy a plane, all of its features are inclusive( hence you have to earn them in playing singleplayercampaign). At least thats the plan for now

Edited October 8, 2013 by III/JG53Frankyboy

[Feathered_IV]

The pay to win label for RoF weapon and field mods originates more from people who don't have them and those with their own little axe to grind. 

None of them are magic bullets that give you an unfair advantage.  The cockpit items are things you'd beg, steal or swap a bottle of cognac for in real life.  Things the machines didn't have when they arrived from the depot.  The weapon mods are contraptions that would likewise be installed at unit level at the initiative of the assigned pilot.  They all have their own weight and drag penalties and not a one is in the pay to win category.

[Mac_Messer]

The weapon mods are contraptions that would likewise be installed at unit level at the initiative of the assigned pilot.  They all have their own weight and drag penalties and not a one is in the pay to win category.

I disagree. Pay to win does not have to be positive bonus only. The gunpods obviously offer an easier way to accomplish specific objectives and as that can be qualified as pay to win.

[SYN_Jedders]

Developers, successful ones anyway, will adopt a business model that will give them revenue over time. In that respect BoS will release items to purchase. No purchase is mandatory nor is any purchase going to give someone a huge advantage. It wont turn a bad pilot into a good one if thats what you are asking. This model works in our very limited Combat Flight simulation market. Expect to see more of it.

 

Dont believe everything you read on forums

I disagree. Pay to win does not have to be positive bonus only. The gunpods obviously offer an easier way to accomplish specific objectives and as that can be qualified as pay to win.

 

Only if it cannot be done with the standard setup.

[Mac_Messer]

Only if it cannot be done with the standard setup.

+1, thanks.

[ST_ami7b5]

Well, apparently at least on of the field mods is an exclusive founder content, unavailable to anyone else even on buying offer.

 

I cannot tell you all the specifics because I`d risk a ban.

 

Why do you stil have some problems with BoS, Mac?

I have bought CloD, most of DCS:World modules, preordered BoS and backed DCS:WWII - no prob with any of them.

Can't understand you rly...

You don't miss a single opportunity to attack BoS.

Edited October 8, 2013 by ami7b5

[ATAG_Slipstream]

afaik they are changing the RoF business model in some way.Personally speaking I hope the single player missions/campaign needed to unlock stuff have a super easy/quick option.With luck I can turn autopilot on to do the mission and go an do something/anything else.I have zero interest in single player and would rather just buy the stuff if I have to,I loathe single player that much :-)

Still, we shall see at launch what the devs have planned for us!

[DD_Arthur]

The pay to win label for RoF weapon and field mods originates more from people who don't have them and those with their own little axe to grind. 

None of them are magic bullets that give you an unfair advantage.  The cockpit items are things you'd beg, steal or swap a bottle of cognac for in real life.  Things the machines didn't have when they arrived from the depot.  The weapon mods are contraptions that would likewise be installed at unit level at the initiative of the assigned pilot.  They all have their own weight and drag penalties and not a one is in the pay to win category.

 

Tomsk, this is what it boils down to. There is no "pay to win" in RoF. 

[von_Tom]

I disagree. Pay to win does not have to be positive bonus only. The gunpods obviously offer an easier way to accomplish specific objectives and as that can be qualified as pay to win.

 

 

Um, yes it does.  "To win" is a positive outcome isn't it?  Easier way to accomplish specific objectives is a positive bonus I'd say.

 

I'm not so sure that telling us the specifics will resuly in a ban, unless it's a veiled vitriolic attack on the developers.  I'd like to know what the unlock path will be in the Bf109.

 

Regarding the ROF stuff, those extra weapon mods make the fighters handle like pigs.  Much easier to stay 10m behind someone if you're not lugging that extra weight around.  That's why I won't be using gunpods as I won't want the penalty against VVS fighters.  It's a nice reward that can be used by those that want to - jabo pilots or dedicated IL2/bomber killers mainly I suppose.

 

Hood

[SYN_Mike77]

If the question were; something like the RoF business model or no new flight sims, which would you choose?  I own about 90% of the add ons in RoF.  I use maybe 10% of them when I fly on line and none of those are weapons mods.  I find the trade off with the mods is too steep on line.  Sometimes when I fly in single player I mess around with them for S & G's.  Pay to win? Hardly.  Pay to play is more like it.

Edited October 8, 2013 by SYN_Mike77

[Mac_Messer]

Um, yes it does.  "To win" is a positive outcome isn't it?  Easier way to accomplish specific objectives is a positive bonus I'd say.

 

(...)

 

That's why I won't be using gunpods as I won't want the penalty against VVS fighters.  It's a nice reward that can be used by those that want to - jabo pilots or dedicated IL2/bomber killers mainly I suppose.

Positive outcome accomplished by using a mod that has certain traits : pros and cons. In certain mission conditions.  Point :  the actual gunpods mod does not only have positive features although it makes winning in certain mission conditions easier.

 

I disagree about the second quote. The gunpods mod can also easily be used by fighters against fighters with success.

[Tomsk]

The "pay to win" factor of BoS is that kind, that you have to buy from time to time planes. So ,the La 5 and Fw190 are available for single purchase AFTER the game is released in 2014. If you not buy their cockpits , the planes are still in game as AI aircraft. As far as i understood , 777 want sto sell scenarios with a planeset, than some additional planes for single purchase ( La5&Fw190 sure , IAR80/Mc202 & P-40/HurricaneII possible), than release the next scenario (rumors say Kuban 43 are a possible choice) again with a given planeset and so on...

 

But 777 WILL NOT sell special engines or weapons for the planes, if you buy a plane, all of its features are inclusive( hence you have to earn them in playing singleplayercampaign). At least thats the plan for now

 

So I have absolutely no objection to "pay for content". Paying for access to a new plane, or certain campaigns or scenarios seems absolutely entirely fair to me. It took the developers time and money to make those things, so they should be paid for them.

 

The pay to win label for RoF weapon and field mods originates more from people who don't have them and those with their own little axe to grind. 

None of them are magic bullets that give you an unfair advantage.  The cockpit items are things you'd beg, steal or swap a bottle of cognac for in real life.  Things the machines didn't have when they arrived from the depot.  The weapon mods are contraptions that would likewise be installed at unit level at the initiative of the assigned pilot.  They all have their own weight and drag penalties and not a one is in the pay to win category.

 

Right, I haven't played Rise of Flight so I'm only reporting what others have said. It's entirely possible that these things give you almost no advantage at all, and simply allow you to play in a different style. My question was really more around "What is the business model for the game?", I just gave RoF as an example because I know it's made by the same developers and has lots of paid for items. Perhaps a better title would have been "What is the BoS business model?".

 

I guess maybe people are just a bit wary as other games (it shall remain nameless) have taught us that free-to-play with paid-for upgrades can end up vastly changing the very nature of the game. They start off being billed as simulations with simplified training modes, but can quickly end up catering to the lowest common denominator in order to keep the business model running. Having a certain business model can end up shaping the game in order to fit the business model, something which is not always very desirable for simmers.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Tomsk

[FlatSpinMan]

"Positive outcome accomplished by using a mod that has certain traits : pros and cons. In certain mission conditions.  Point :  the actual gunpods mod does not only have positive features although it makes winning in certain mission conditions easier."

 

So hang on, a certain mod with both good and bad points might help you in certain circumstances? That's hardly earth-shattering, nor does it seem purely beneficial. 

Isn't the converse that it might disadvantage you in others?

Really, is that play to win? That sounds more like "pay to have something you want, which has both good and bad points depending on the circumstances - or don't", or "PTHSYWWHGABPDOTC-OD", for short.

[Bearcat]

Hello,

 

 

There's been an interesting discussion over on the ATAG forums (if people know ATAG) over what the business model for Battle of Stalingrid will be. In particularly, people have been concerned that the game might have some "Pay to Win" elements similar to the paid for "Field mods" and "Weapon mods" for Rise of Flight. The general feeling of the people on the ATAG forums (myself included) seemed to be that this would be rather unwelcome.

 

Does anyone know anything about what the business model will be for BoS? I haven't been able to find anything very specific from the developers. Will it be free-to-play, with paid for upgrades? Or will it be a more traditional pay-for-upfront sim? Or is the plan to have some free planes up front, with other planes paid for if you want them? If there are free planes, and paid for planes, will paid-for planes be stronger? Or will you only have access to the best equipment for your plane if you pay for it?

 

People on the ATAG forum seem to be quite unsure about this aspect of BoS, which at the moment is putting a lot of people off pre-ordering BoS. I have pre-ordered BoS because I'm a big fan of flight sims, which I see as a bit of a very dying genre, and would like to make every effort to keep the genre alive. However, I am also finding myself concerned about what the business model will be.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Tomsk

 

That's not the case. Even the weapon mods and field mods in RoF are not pay to win. What I suggest you do is go to the Rise of Flight Store and check out some of the field mods and weapon mods yourself.. Consider the pricing and consider mod. Also consider how much of them are historic in nature.  Then ask yourself how that could be pay to win if it adds a penalty.

 

Well, apparently at least on of the field mods is an exclusive founder content, unavailable to anyone else even on buying offer.

 

I cannot tell you all the specifics because I`d risk a ban.

 

 Apparently you risk a ban every time you open your mouth because you just cannot help yourself with that spoon you keep stirring things up with.

 

The pay to win label for RoF weapon and field mods originates more from people who don't have them and those with their own little axe to grind. 

None of them are magic bullets that give you an unfair advantage.  The cockpit items are things you'd beg, steal or swap a bottle of cognac for in real life.  Things the machines didn't have when they arrived from the depot.  The weapon mods are contraptions that would likewise be installed at unit level at the initiative of the assigned pilot.  They all have their own weight and drag penalties and not a one is in the pay to win category.

 

Exactly.. sort of like the 20mm gun pods in BoS that some people are so obsessed with. When you consider that the 15mm gunpods will be available to everyone.. and if it matters so much to some people then why not just pre order... even if you only go standard which is likely what the finished sim will sell for and you will wind up paying anyway after release.. but nope. Some people would rather just stir that pot and keep stuff going because it is what they do.... When you factor in that there is a definite penalty for many of the weapon mods including the gun pods in BoS .. one that in fact removes most of the advantages in maneuverability that a 109 would have without the gun pods ... is it really pay to win? I don't think so and it makes you wonder why so many folks are constantly whining and crying and making issues where they do not exist.

 

Why do you stil have some problems with BoS, Mac?

I have bought CloD, most of DCS:World modules, preordered BoS and backed DCS:WWII - no prob with any of them.

Can't understand you rly...

You don't miss a single opportunity to attack BoS.

 

................

[Revvin]

I wish I could pay a little something to stop me being shot down as someone who owns a large chunk of RoF content it's definately not pay to win

[Mac_Messer]

 

 Apparently you risk a ban every time you open your mouth because you just cannot help yourself with that spoon you keep stirring things up with.

 

 

Exactly.. sort of like the 20mm gun pods in BoS that some people are so obsessed with. When you consider that the 15mm gunpods will be available to everyone.. and if it matters so much to some people then why not just pre order... even if you only go standard which is likely what the finished sim will sell for and you will wind up paying anyway after release.. but nope. Some people would rather just stir that pot and keep stuff going because it is what they do.... When you factor in that there is a definite penalty for many of the weapon mods including the gun pods in BoS .. one that in fact removes most of the advantages in maneuverability that a 109 would have without the gun pods ... is it really pay to win? I don't think so and it makes you wonder why so many folks are constantly whining and crying and making issues where they do not exist.

I wonder if you actually know that you are the single moderator here that harasses me everytime I say something.

 

About your opinion on the gunpods, you seem to ignore that it was a part of the founder group that protested against it. I would expect yoo aswell as the devs giving more thought to their posts before you attack anyone else for voicing their opiinon in a respectful manner.

"Positive outcome accomplished by using a mod that has certain traits : pros and cons. In certain mission conditions.  Point :  the actual gunpods mod does not only have positive features although it makes winning in certain mission conditions easier."

 

So hang on, a certain mod with both good and bad points might help you in certain circumstances? That's hardly earth-shattering, nor does it seem purely beneficial. 

Isn't the converse that it might disadvantage you in others?

Really, is that play to win? That sounds more like "pay to have something you want, which has both good and bad points depending on the circumstances - or don't", or "PTHSYWWHGABPDOTC-OD", for short.

Well I do not expect every other forum member to share my opinion on this. This is how I see it, few other see it too like that. It is beneficial to me in proportions of 80% good, 20% bad. The gunpods can really be the feature that draws success. Now, if you tell me that it needs to be used in a proper way to be effective, doesn`t that count for every P2W feature?

 

Others I think are against the idea for different reasons which btw I applause. In fact, it is one of the reasons why this community still lives and prospers.

[Mmaruda]

Weapon mods pay to win? Not really. First of all, bigger gunpods mean more drag and increased weight and remember, you still have to get onto someone's six to actually get the kill.

 

I have played the hell out of 1946 and all I can say is, heavier loadouts are something of a placebo efect. People use them, becasue they have difficulties getting kills without them and the sad truth is, bigger guns don't make you a better pilot. I wouldn't be surprised if the gunpods become something of a flight sim equivelant of a noob-tube. The good pilots will be able to do good without them, the people who lack skill won't benefit much from heavier artillery, becasue they can still be outflown, especially with the weight and drag "penalty".

[I/JG27_Rollo]

 When you consider that the 15mm gunpods will be available to everyone.. and if it matters so much to some people then why not just pre order...

I'll have to step in on that particular part since those are two points that boggle my mind in the other thread as well and I'd like to maybe help clarify the reasons for bringing up that issue in the first place. (No offense, BC)

 

Comparing a 109 without gondolas to one with gondolas (as it was often done in other posts - not yours) IMHO doesn't quite hit the spot within the P2W argument or the gondola discussion. Both founders and non-founders can choose to fly with or without gondolas.

 

So lets's just compare the gun-pod 109s of founders and non-founders: non-founders get 15mm while founders get 20mm guns. Both are gondola-equipped so both share more or less the same disadvantages of having a much more sluggish aircraft compared to having no gondolas. However, the 20mm-equipped 109 should then be flat-out more powerful than the 15mm one - increased firepower with roughly the same weight/drag problems. (How much more is to be seen but there's a reason why the Luftwaffe refitted their machines with the MG 151/20).

 

The second point is "why not just preorder?". Yes, people who choose now, not to preorder, know what they are not getting, that's fine. But with the release in spring, the game will be featured in game magazines, there will be a lot of videos all over Youtube and the game will probably be more widely known than now. What about people who just discover the game then - they don't have a choice to preorder or not. They're just late and maybe they would have preordered if they had the chance.

 

I have the feeling that some people who so fiercely defend the exclusivity of their 20mm-gun-pod-F4s don't quite consider those points.

(If they do and just don't care, nevermind...)

[Mac_Messer]

Weapon mods pay to win? Not really. First of all, bigger gunpods mean more drag and increased weight and remember, you still have to get onto someone's six to actually get the kill.

 

I have played the hell out of 1946 and all I can say is, heavier loadouts are something of a placebo efect. People use them, becasue they have difficulties getting kills without them and the sad truth is, bigger guns don't make you a better pilot. I wouldn't be surprised if the gunpods become something of a flight sim equivelant of a noob-tube. The good pilots will be able to do good without them, the people who lack skill won't benefit much from heavier artillery, becasue they can still be outflown, especially with the weight and drag "penalty".

 

Actually, you don`t. Scoring kills is doable from just about any angle of attack and speed.

 

I have also played the hell out of IL2 and imo the MG151/20 gunpods provide firepower equal to that of FW190 but do not neuter the 109 enough to reflect 190 sluggish maneuverability. In a IL2 hunting mission with gunpods I get up to 5 kills, without a max of 3. In both combat situations I risk getting jumped by a fighter, no difference for me here.  So in answer to your post, the good pilots will do even better, while those lacking skill will get close to no difference.

 

Besides, what about scenarios where VVS aircraft are heavily armed also?Rocket sniping was one of the biggest LW pilots` fear in the first years of Soviet online war campaign.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Mac_Messer

[von_Tom]

Positive outcome accomplished by using a mod that has certain traits : pros and cons. In certain mission conditions.  Point :  the actual gunpods mod does not only have positive features although it makes winning in certain mission conditions easier.

 

I disagree about the second quote. The gunpods mod can also easily be used by fighters against fighters with success.

 

Pay to win was your reference point.  Pay to win has to have a positive outcome otherwise it isn't pay to win.  Do you mean - Pay to have certain options that may or may not enable one to win in certain situations when the particular option may assist over and above the "standard" options - this doesn't quite slip off the tongue though. 

 

This misses a central premise though, which is that nobody has paid to win.  No money has changed hands other than the pre-order payment (which when I pre-ordered was for the premium deal - this did not include gunpods or a rear gunner).

 

As for gunpods, they can pretty much be used in most scenarios I can envisage in BoS.  As I said though, I won't be using them as I don't want the weight/drag penalty that comes with them.

 

I really think you're missing the target here.  It cannot be pay to win if you haven't paid for anything "extra".  Even if you pay for an optional extra, with attendant pros and cons, this is not pay to win.

 

Hood

 

Edit:  For me the only argument that holds water is that those new to the game will not have the 20mm gunpods available.  Even so, that's how it goes with part crowd-funded games these days - look at Star Citizen etc.  It's tough but there you go.  If you want to you can justify it historically - they weren't that common so not everyone should have them.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Hood

[J2_Trupobaw]

The RoF weapon mods are definately not "pay to win" - most of them are "pay to die in interesting way by overloading a perfectly good fighter" or  "pay to give yourself little more chance in fights you should have avoided in this plane".   They are sometimes good in single player career where performance is less important and you care about number of planes you can down in single mission. 

The closest thing to pay-to-win are better gunsights on some planes.

The latest steam release of RoF sells planes in packs along with all field / weapon mods. We'll see if it's sign of things to come.

@ I/JG27_Rollo - notice that nowhere it has been said that 20mm gunpods will stay exclusive to founders forever. Only that they will not be available at the moment of release. I see them weaseling their way into the game when they stop being a novelty.

Also, notice that they don't give a founder advantage when fighting a not-founder - they give founder better chance when fighting third player in heavy plane like Il-2. If you sit in Il-2 and other guy attacks you with 20mm cannons, being a fonder will not help you. Pay to score more rather than pay to win against guy who did not pay if that . 

A question I still think needs a clear answer - will the 109-F with 20mm canons will be able to do anything that either 109-F with no pods or 109-G can't do better? If pods are an "pay to not have to switch to 109-G" option, I think we can live with that.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Trupobaw

[JtD]

I sure hope it will be like Il-2 used to be. Plenty of aircraft, lots of loadouts in bigger bundles, for a fairly low price if not for free.

[BraveSirRobin]

I "paid to win" by buying TrackIR and a 32" monitor.  Do I have to send them back?

 

The weapon mods in RoF don't help you win.  If anything they get you killed.

[Jason_Williams]

I'm not sure about the purpose of this post. We have been plenty specific. The rumors are started by those that have an agenda. Let me be clear once again.

 

- It's not Free2PLay like ROF.

- We will focus on theatres with the occasional a la carte plane released.

- You cannot purchase plane mods like in ROF and any plane mods you earn are historical in nature. This is not WT. 

- The gunpods were given as a gift to our most dedicated customers who took a chance and bought in early. We appreciate the support.

 

So whatever you think Pay to Win means foes not fit this product. You want to win, practice and then practice some more.

 

Jason

[Tomsk]

I'm not sure about the purpose of this post. We have been plenty specific. The rumors are started by those that have an agenda.

 

So I honestly do not have an agenda, it was a genuine question. My post probably wasn't well worded, I probably should have realized that even mentioning the term "Pay to Win" would stir up a hornets nest and derail the thread. Live and learn eh! In my defense, you probably have been specific but there do seem to be quite a few people who are equally confused. Maybe some of them do have an agenda, but not all. I did look over the IL2 BoS website, but it doesn't appear to mention anything relating to the business model. 

 

Thanks for answering my question, and I'm really pleased that you are not following the WT model. You've definitely set my mind at ease there.

 

I've only recently got interested in WW2 flight sims (although I've been a jet sim enthusiast for years) and I'm really excited about BoS. I'm thinking that this is definitely a great time for me to be getting into WWII flight sims.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Tomsk

[AndyJWest]

I "paid to win" by buying TrackIR and a 32" monitor.  Do I have to send them back?

 

Exactly. Are the rudder pedals I'm thinking about buying 'pay to win'? 

[Revvin]

 

The second point is "why not just preorder?". Yes, people who choose now, not to preorder, know what they are not getting, that's fine. But with the release in spring, the game will be featured in game magazines, there will be a lot of videos all over Youtube and the game will probably be more widely known than now. What about people who just discover the game then - they don't have a choice to preorder or not. They're just late and maybe they would have preordered if they had the chance.

 

 

I've missed out on freebies and incentives in the past with games and online services I just chalk it down to bad luck but the gunpod's are really not that big a deal. 777 Wanted to reward customers who 'bought in' early it doesn't matter if the freebie were gunpod's or a trip to the moon, someone would miss out somewhere but what are 777 supposed to do? not give anything as a gift? Mac knows what's on offer, if he misses out that's his choice

[I/JG27_Rollo]

[...] but what are 777 supposed to do? not give anything as a gift? Mac knows what's on offer, if he misses out that's his choice

Alternatives have been suggested, you know that.

And I'm not defending Mac or anyone, I'm not advocating that BoS is P2W and I certainly don't have an agenda... just clarifying the essential points of my opinion in that matter.

Edited October 8, 2013 by I/JG27_Rollo

[Mac_Messer]

Pay to win was your reference point.  Pay to win has to have a positive outcome otherwise it isn't pay to win.  Do you mean - Pay to have certain options that may or may not enable one to win in certain situations when the particular option may assist over and above the "standard" options - this doesn't quite slip off the tongue though. 

 

This misses a central premise though, which is that nobody has paid to win.  No money has changed hands other than the pre-order payment (which when I pre-ordered was for the premium deal - this did not include gunpods or a rear gunner).

 

As for gunpods, they can pretty much be used in most scenarios I can envisage in BoS.  As I said though, I won't be using them as I don't want the weight/drag penalty that comes with them.

 

I really think you're missing the target here.  It cannot be pay to win if you haven't paid for anything "extra".  Even if you pay for an optional extra, with attendant pros and cons, this is not pay to win.

 

Hood

 

Edit:  For me the only argument that holds water is that those new to the game will not have the 20mm gunpods available.  Even so, that's how it goes with part crowd-funded games these days - look at Star Citizen etc.  It's tough but there you go.  If you want to you can justify it historically - they weren't that common so not everyone should have them.

Yes, this makes sence. So maybe I went too far calling it P2W. I guess the gunpods are a huge loss only for me and maybe few others, but I don`t exactly see the majority seeing it like that. Comes out being very subjective on my part.

 

However I stand by the last paragraph. Those who didn`t have the choice to take the premium founder purchase will miss out and that`s pretty bad.

[SYN_Haashashin]

RoF pay to win?? I have allmost everything you could buy so if its a pay to win situation I should be winning a lot right??... well....please take a look at my stats hahahaha Not the case what so ever. Never understood how something that gives you disadvantages can be considered pay to win. A real pay to win situation?? GTA V Online, great game by the way, but been able to buy virtual money with your credit card and spend it in houses, cars, ammo and guns!! others cant pay for with real money..thats pay to win for me (clear advantage and no disadvantages at all.)

 

And about the 20mm-15mm debate, people: Come on there is a 5mm only difference, why people get so upset about sizes?? (and I know it makes a difference when we are talking about ammo).

[ImPeRaToR]

I sure hope it will be like Il-2 used to be. Plenty of aircraft, lots of loadouts in bigger bundles, for a fairly low price if not for free.

Who is going to pay the guy who worked 22 weeks on a single plane?

[FuriousMeow]

Who is going to pay the guy who worked 22 weeks on a single plane?

 

What? Pay them? Pssh. Back in the day we used to pay $50 for titles that had hundreds of planes, rich dynamic campaign (spare historical relevance/accuracy), manuals 250 pages thick, and neat little CDs that you could hold in your hands and amazing SVGA graphics - why should we pay more? It's not like the titles these days are more complex on the scale of a million fold.

Edited October 8, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

What? Pay them? Pssh. Back in the day we used to pay $50 for titles that had hundreds of planes, rich dynamic campaign (spare historical relevance/accuracy), manuals 250 pages thick, and neat little CDs that you could hold in your hands and amazing SVGA graphics - why should we pay more? It's not like the titles these days are more complex on the scale of a million fold.

Rubbish! just look at this...

 

 

The maps, cockpits, landscape, aircraft models...

Edited October 8, 2013 by =BKHZ=Furbs

[Dutch]

Tomsk, this is what it boils down to. There is no "pay to win" in RoF. 

Quite true. Rise of Flight is not 'pay to win'. But everyone who sees those guns for sale wonders 'would that give me an advantage?' So they buy them. This doesn't give them any advantage in combat, but it does provide the developers with a much needed cashflow.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Quite true. Rise of Flight is not 'pay to win'. But everyone who sees those guns for sale wonders 'would that give me an advantage?' So they buy them. This doesn't give them any advantage in combat, but it does provide the developers with a much needed cashflow.

Which means the next patch is on time and does what it says on the tin! WIN!

[Tomsk]

Quite true. Rise of Flight is not 'pay to win'. But everyone who sees those guns for sale wonders 'would that give me an advantage?' So they buy them. This doesn't give them any advantage in combat, but it does provide the developers with a much needed cashflow.

 

And here was me with my foolish notion that people would only pay for something that was actually useful ... When will I ever learn?

 

I can see that paid for items can be a nightmare for a developer:

 

Developer: starting today we are offering the new "ExtremeRipper" cannon as a premium item.

Gamer A: wow, that looks cool, I should buy that, then I will be uber.

Gamer B: Ah this game is totally going "Pay to win"!!!

Developer: no the "ExtremeRipper" cannon isn't pay to win, it actually has no use whatsoever.

Gamer A: oh in that case I guess I don't need to buy it after all

Developer: no, it's erm ... really awesome, it'll make you 10 times better if you buy it

Gamer B: Pay to win!!

Edited October 8, 2013 by Tomsk

[dburne]

What? Pay them? Pssh. Back in the day we used to pay $50 for titles that had hundreds of planes, rich dynamic campaign (spare historical relevance/accuracy), manuals 250 pages thick, and neat little CDs that you could hold in your hands and amazing SVGA graphics - why should we pay more? It's not like the titles these days are more complex on the scale of a million fold.

 

Dang I sure miss those days...