Bombsight interface

[[DBS]Chicky]

Hi,

 

I have a few suggestions regarding the bombsight interface (valid for both He-111 and Pe-2):

 

1. Make it possible to switch between the map and the bombsight with one key
   On the bombing run when you are searching for the right target, you want to consult the map quite often. Right now you have to:
   - switch from the bombsight to the cockpit (v)
   - display map all over the screen, so you lose a bit of of the situational awareness (p)
   - switch back to the cockpit (p)
   - switch to the bombsight view (v)
2. Do not reset the bombsight angle when switching to/fro the cockpit
   When you are manually looking forward with the bombsight to spot the target ahead and you switch to the cockpit (v) and back, the view angle is lost and you have to tilt the bombsight forward again. By this you are losing pretious time and positional awareness
3. Use the same setting for all bombsight modes (auto, manual, sight)
   The left-right alignment of the bombsight (correction for wind drift) is different in aiming / sighting modes, making it very hard to align properly on the target. When you finally recognize in the sighting view the target you are required to hit and turn the plane to fly towards it, there is too little time left to switch back to the aiming mode and realign the plane once more as the view is now off.
4. Hide the bombsight interface altogether
   Similarly as you can hide the HUD messages in the cockpit view (h), could you also hide the whole bombsight interface and maximize the actual bombsight circle to look more realistically?
    

Now there are some ideas regarding the functionality of the bombsight (actually something we know from the old IL-2 Sturmovik 1946):

1. It does not seem historical to enter the speed value from the gauge directly into the bombsight. Maybe this could be changed on the expert difficulty so the bombardier would need to make the conversion from IAS to TAS manually?
2. Would it be possible to move the bombsight left and right in the sighting view? That is ofen required to find the target and if you sometime in the future model B-24 with the Norden bombsight, that was how the whole plane was guided during the bomb run.

 

[[DBS]El_Marta]

I am with Chicky here except for the IAS TAS conversion. If this will be changed a calculator like this one link would come in handy as a map tool.

link2

[[DBS]TH0R]

Excellent suggestions Chicky.

 

I am with Chicky here except for the IAS TAS conversion. If this will be changed a calculator like this one link would come in handy as a map tool.

link2

 

That would not only be useful but would also add to the immersion.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

x100 with Chicky. 

 

Spot on remarks.

 

And Also things I've mentioned somewhere else :

 

5. Bring back Keyboard controls for the bomb sight

Using the mouse for turning all the knob is not user friendly, especially for the view angle lever wich sometimes behaves wierdly.

 

6. Allow the selection of both internal and external bombs at the same time for a bomb run 

Using mixed internal/external loadouts is annoying, as only one will be auto dropped, making the other fall way off target due to the long switching time

[Sokol1]

5. Bring back Keyboard controls for the bomb sight

Using the mouse for turning all the knob is not user friendly, especially for the view angle lever wich sometimes behaves wierdly.

 

6. Allow the selection of both internal and external bombs at the same time for a bomb run 

Using mixed internal/external loadouts is annoying, as only one will be auto dropped, making the other fall way off target due to the long switching time

 

Despite I like see a perfect modeled bombsight in games (the more close to this is the CloD Blenheim one, but his functionality is wrong/generic) the IAS/TAS conversion only will add work (IMO).

Actually some players dont try level bombing just because the need of convert wind parameters in angle correction...

 

But key/buttons controls for bombsight - besides the mouse control for casual gamers - will be nice, allowing use my "button box bombsight".

[jeanba]

Is there a possibility to "zoom" to better see ground objects from the bombsight interface ?

 

It is very hard "by default"

[LukeFF]

6. Allow the selection of both internal and external bombs at the same time for a bomb run 

Using mixed internal/external loadouts is annoying, as only one will be auto dropped, making the other fall way off target due to the long switching time

 

Very much in support of this one, yes. 

[LAL_Luny]

+1 to all of this

 

+ this one too :

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16014-heavy-bomber-bombsight-and-multiple-human-crew/

[F/JG300_Gruber]

On a side note, is it just me or does the auto-tracking winding up faster than what it should ?

 

To get an accurate tracking I usually need to enter a speed around 30km/h slower than what I'm actually flying, but this shifts the impact point upwards. 

I usually switch back to manual drop at the last moment to put the bombs where I want them with the right parameters (including wind). 

Edited May 1, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[LukeFF]

 

 

On a side note, is it just me or does the auto-tracking winding up faster than what it should ?

 

I'd check to make sure your other inputs are correct.  

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Ok, triple checked in offline quick mission, tracking is definitely not accurate.

 

 Tested both with dead down wind and 16m/s@2000m  blowing on my exact 6 o'clock.

 

Parameters entered for speed and altitude are the one given in the gauges in the bombsight view, stabilized for a couple minutes in leveled flight

300km/h and 3000m ASFC. Just for additional info, cockpit gauges were showing 295km/h for speed and 3170m altitude (airfield elevation)/ 3300m (standard pressure)

No variations observed in altitude during the whole test.

 

From 85° to 40° of angle, tracking is too fast. To get a good tracking, I need to substract 30km/h of indicated air speed, or add 400m of altitude

in the 40° to 20° range, tracking is quite accurate.

below 20°, tracking gets too slow (though we don't really care as bombs should be gone by the time)

Edited May 1, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[LukeFF]

I dunno, then. Are you accounting for the target's height above sea level?

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Nope I didn't,  but accounting for it goes in the error's direction :

 

I just made a reading, where I did the test was 150m above sea level

 

So at an altitude of 3000, my height up there was 2850m, and the height input needed in the lotfe to get accurate tracking was 3400m, so it increases inaccuracy by a further 150m 

[LukeFF]

The only other thing I can suggest, then, is to set up a quick mission with just your plane and with the game in Normal difficulty mode so you can see the floating bomb aimpoint marker. Then, switch the bombsight to Manual mode and watch how the aiming marker moves as you make adjustments to altitude, airspeed, etc. That helped me a lot with figuring out where I was going wrong with the He 111's bombsight. 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Already done that sir 

 

Why not trying it by yourself ? On stalingrad map, the spawn point in the bottom left corner (sector 511) is good for this, kilometers of flat terrain and no flak on the road if you keep it in autolevel.

try something like 3000 or 4000m and no wind, fiddle around with the bombsight settings to get the crosshair and the aimpoint matching and then try to track something on the ground starting at an angle around 70-75°. It will take you no more than 5 minutes.

Edited May 3, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[LukeFF]

Already done that sir 

 

Why not trying it by yourself ? On stalingrad map, the spawn point in the bottom left corner (sector 511) is good for this, kilometers of flat terrain and no flak on the road if you keep it in autolevel.

try something like 3000 or 4000m and no wind, fiddle around with the bombsight settings to get the crosshair and the aimpoint matching and then try to track something on the ground starting at an angle around 70-75°. It will take you no more than 5 minutes.

 

Well, actually I have. I can only assume at this point that the bombsight has been modeled according to its historical specs. However, I'll message VikS to have a look at this topic and see if he can provide any insight. 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Many thanks 

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

+100 to the changes suggested.  The access to the map while in the bombsight is most important IMO.

 

Did bombsights generally have the ability to zoom out to see a larger area?  I think this is in ROF, but I don't know if WWII sights actually had this ability.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Another suggestion would be to have gyro stabilization during turning / aligning with the target. The current implementation is awkward, especially when there is a strong cross wind present. You need to guess how much over the target you need to turn before the sight stabilizes itself directionally...

 

This is something real bomb sights did have, especially Norden (Lofte was based on IIRC).

Edited May 10, 2015 by [DBS]TH0R

[LukeFF]

Another suggestion would be to have gyro stabilization during turning / aligning with the target. The current implementation is awkward, especially when there is a strong cross wind present. You need to guess how much over the target you need to turn before the sight stabilizes itself directionally...

 

This is something real bomb sights did have, especially Norden (Lofte was based on IIRC).

 

Agreed, it can be quite frustrating right now making turns while in the bombsight view. 

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Recently my squadmates and me had a look at 1C's il2 Cliffs of Dover's way of implementing different bombsights. This is inddeed implemented very well. Each bombsight is modelled individually. While the in game bombsight calculating in BOS for sure is a big step forward, it's current implementation is not very handy and it looks and feels generic.

 

Sumarizing the posts above it would be great if during the future process of refining and developing the BOS BOM series the following enhancement could be achieved:

 

- keyboard controlls for speed, altitude, sight and windangle,

- gyro stabilisation (turning left and right without banking once level automisation is active),

- selection of all bomb hardpoints for one release possible,

- split up/ unclutter the current bombsight gui´into 2 if not 3 seperate functional entities:

 

- map should be accesible all the time,

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Recently my squadmates and me had a look at 1C's il2 Cliffs of Dover's way of implementing different bombsights. This is inddeed implemented very well. Each bombsight is modelled individually. While the in game bombsight calculating in BOS for sure is a big step forward, it's current implementation is not very handy and it looks and feels generic.

 

Sumarizing the posts above it would be great if during the future process of refining and developing the BOS BOM series the following enhancement could be achieved:

 

- keyboard controlls for speed, altitude, sight and windangle, (especially dragging the sight view distance/angle with the mouse on the final run  is very arkward, unprecise and, - excuse my french - , a litteral "PAIN IN THE ASS").

- gyro stabilisation (turning left and right without banking once level automisation is active),

- selection of all bomb hardpoints for one release possible,

- map should be accesible all the time,

- split up/ unclutter the current bombsight gui´into 2 if not 3 seperate functional entities:

  a) wind allowance calculations. This does not only affect bombing, but navigation in general. GUI background would be the map    

      prerferably. Navigation interface with course plotting tools, protractors and ETA calculations.

  b) altitude and wind dependent IAS TAS calculations, intervalometer settings, hardpoint and fuze selections, open/clos bomb doors.

      Similar to the current BOS GUI.

  c) bombsight reticule aiming view. Just like the 1946 gui: speed, alt, drift, relative wind angle, sight distance and map available, but

      more room for a zoomed in and stabilized view on the target.

Edited September 7, 2015 by [DBS]El_Marta

[LukeFF]

 

 

El_Marta' timestamp='1441639965' post='284813']selection of all bomb hardpoints for one release possible

 

I asked Han about this (in regards to the He 111), and he told me the current setup is correct. Whatever the case, it does make using a mixed internal/external bomb loadout with the He 111 a bit clunky.

[Matt]

Note sure if it's common knowledge, but you can also control all dials by using the mouse wheel while holding the mouse pointer over that dial. Way more intuitive than clicking on the dial and moving it around with the mouse imho.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

@Matt I did not know that. It is indeed much better.

[I./JG62_froNt]

+1 to all ideas!

 

Something I would like to add is, that the plane does not go on autolevel automatically, as soon I switch to the bombsight. 

This sometimes becomes an issue, when you're flying in formation or when you're climbing with your trimmed aircraft. 

 

 

On a side note, is it just me or does the auto-tracking winding up faster than what it should ?

 

To get an accurate tracking I usually need to enter a speed around 30km/h slower than what I'm actually flying, but this shifts the impact point upwards. 

I usually switch back to manual drop at the last moment to put the bombs where I want them with the right parameters (including wind). 

 

I'm also having the same troubles with the auto mode. What I do is, after I entered all correct values, I'm adjusting my Aim with the mouse manually a little bit (further/closer lever) to keep it at one spot. With this I get good results.

Of course it would be nice, if it would stay at one position though. Downloading Thors Level Bombing Guide right now 

[II./KG55-G_Feldges]

Reviving an old thread here, but...

 

+1 to adding key bindings to the bomb sight controls.

 

I enjoy level bombing and the challenges it presents to the player, so having better controls that don't depend on the mouse would be great!

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

which controls?
i take it you mean like set speed /alt/wind and so on?
even tho these should be mouse clicks representing a bomber using his hands

Other Than That The way it is now
You can already use Auto lvl left/right key bindings while in bombsight (the steering column thing you click with mouse does no move but the plane does)
You can open close bomb bay with keys, Change bomb pattern & delay
You no longer have to switch back and forth to see the map (just press o while in bombsight)

You can fly the plane manually while in bombsight with joystick (auto level off) and you can adjust power and engine params (which you should NOT be allowed to do)