Normal vs Expert

March 30, 2015

Holy crap Batman! I have pretty much done all my flying in normal mode having only ventured into expert once or twice. I was completely new to MP with BOS and normal seemed the way to go. Last night I decided to try flying in expert mode so I set up a flight of 3 Yaks vs 3 109Fs. In the first flight I had my butt handed to me, a little better on the second flight. On the third I managed to get one of those pesky 109's and then managed to make it back to base and land.

But I have come to the conclusion that for total immersion expert is the way to go! No HUD, no in-game map, no ID markers on planes and no little arrows showing the planes. I learned quickly how to keep checking my six and head tracking makes that easier (expect a stiff neck). So if you been stuck in normal go ahead and try out expert mode. It may not be everybody's cup of tea...but I really had some fun!

I probably won't fly expert all the time until after I do some more practicing on my navigation skills, and ID'ing planes. No rants or complaints, just wanted to let folks know how much fun BOS is!

March 30, 2015

Yes Expert is definitely the way to go. More challenge and more fun. With practice navigating and IDing aircraft will become second nature and you'll develop much better situational awareness without the crutch of labels and icons. For spotting make sure to have the zoom axis or buttons set to something you can use easily since it's needed much more.

In the Campaign you get double points towards the unlocks if you're into that sort of thing so that makes the extra difficulty worthwhile.

Edited March 30, 2015 by SharpeXB

March 30, 2015

Expert needs the airfield radar to be removed asap. People see enemies over an airfield and tend to flock there, no need to navigate if you just have to wait for red blocks to appear on the map. Personally I think airfields need to be further apart as well but that's a server preference.

March 30, 2015

Main problem to me (and maybe others) is that I've never had a historical correct navigation training course so I find it very hard no "navigate" in IL-2 and even more in the snow deserts of BoS.

Flying IL-2 my hope was that one day there might come up a WWII sim, where this is solved a little nearer to realism and explainded in a manual. Of course I should be disappointed. Had a little fun with IL-2 offline using laminated printed flight maps on my desk where I prepared the flight in advance, flying online however was a horror as all "pilots" hitted the flight button within seconds with no preparation whatsoever which I felt was not "full real".

My idea is that nothing will be that immerging than planning and navigating near to realism.

I'm still hoping...

Edited March 30, 2015 by Wuerger

March 30, 2015

Expert needs the airfield radar to be removed asap. People see enemies over an airfield and tend to flock there, no need to navigate if you just have to wait for red blocks to appear on the map. Personally I think airfields need to be further apart as well but that's a server preference.

I think your opinion reflects much of the community. Personally I prefer the radar to be there because if an airfield was going to be under attack the control tower or somewhere would be radioing the friendlies in the sky reporting the enemy position. If you could bomb the control tower and maybe enough infrastructure the radar would go out I think that would be a bit more reasonable.

If an enemy aircraft was at one of your airfields it would be realistic for a radio call from the airfield but those would get old pretty quick on some servers where airfield diving is the norm. A destroyable control tower with effects seems like a cool idea.

Main problem to me (and maybe others) is that I've never had a historical correct navigation training course so I find it very hard no "navigate" in IL-2 and even more in the snow deserts of BoS.

Flying IL-2 my hope was that one day there might come up a WWII sim, where this is solved a little nearer to realism and explainded in a manual. Of course I should be disappointed. Had a little fun with IL-2 offline using laminated printed flight maps on my desk where I prepared the flight in advance, flying online however was a horror as all "pilots" hitted the flight button within seconds with no preparation whatsoever which I felt was not "full real".

My idea is that nothing will be that immerging than planning and navigating near to realism.

I'm still hoping...

If you havent already modified your terrain.ini file this will make your experience 10x better.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12501-you-also-think-bos-beautiful-how-about-making-it-absolutly-g/

Navigation is a skill to learn and if you put some work into it Im sure with this mod you will be able to use patches of forest, towns, and rivers to find your way around the map with ease. Best of luck

Edited March 30, 2015 by Roo5ter

March 30, 2015

When "dead reckoning" Nav the best landmarks to use imo are bodies of water because they all look unique. I had a great night flight in CoD and DID Desastersoft where I had to find my way back across the channel alone at night using the moonlight off the coastline. It was awesome!

BoS and RoF have really great maps so finding lakes and streams etc is quite easy.

March 30, 2015

If you havent already modified your terrain.ini file this will make your experience 10x better.

...

Navigation is a skill to learn and if you put some work into it Im sure with this mod you will be able to use patches of forest, towns, and rivers to find your way around the map with ease. Best of luck

Hi, Roo5ter,

I already modified the terrain.ini, but don't really get the advanatges it makes for navigating. It only sharpens the details for, let's say, 3%, on my monitor...nothing more.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Wuerger

March 30, 2015

Hi, Roo5ter,

I already modified the terrain.ini, but don't really get the advanatges it makes for navigating. It only sharpens the details for, let's say, 3%, on my monitor...nothing more.

You could always fly the Russian planes for a while and stay low to the ground until you learned the map well. Once you know the map flying higher navigating would be easy. Also try this site for path planning and navigation - https://1a46437e3326b7d250210e9e2c158ef9b0a5893e.googledrive.com/host/0BwbLWsLToYhddlhidkxNcWZ6RG8/newmap.html

If you change the airspeed on the right side it dynamically updates all flight times FYI. I started out with my phone as a stopwatch and plotting paths so I would have a good idea where I was at all times even if the terrain underneath was unfamiliar. I felt I didnt really need the tool once I did the terrain updates though with 10 lines of 4096,8. At that point I just used pieces of forest rivers and town to navigate. I also play almost solely on the TWB server so navigation is an important part of my time while playing and I feel that it is almost never an issue after a week of playing.

March 30, 2015

Checking your compass is just as important as checking your 6! Once you learn and start employing this, the problem melts away.

March 30, 2015

Hey, Roo5ster,

what the f... is that?

Yeah, that's what I was looking for. Is there a prior topic which explains in detail how to use it?

All your hints and tips are very helpful. Thanks for very much. Shows that we urgently need an Wiki! Must say that pilots in reality in those days stayed weeks or even months in a region and very much got familiar with the area. In a sim you fly a few hours, next mission is another area. So you are running too fast through everything and maybe this is why it was a bit easier to navigate in real life.

Thanks again! Lot's of work to do over Easter days, after installing my easter egg (which I hope will be a MSI 970GTX gaming 4G graphics card)

Edited March 30, 2015 by Wuerger

March 30, 2015

Good points made here! Will weigh in again after some more flight time in expert mode...and I'll check that compass. I have already made the mods in the terrain.ini, makes it a little easier to pick out landmarks.

March 31, 2015

Yes Expert is definitely the way to go. More challenge and more fun. With practice navigating and IDing aircraft will become second nature and you'll develop much better situational awareness without the crutch of labels and icons. For spotting make sure to have the zoom axis or buttons set to something you can use easily since it's needed much more.

In the Campaign you get double points towards the unlocks if you're into that sort of thing so that makes the extra difficulty worthwhile.

Totally agree Eventually expert becomes the new normal, and turning on any HUD or icons becomes incredibly distracting since they break the illusion that you are looking out into a 3D world.

Spotting is hard - most RL pilots seem to agree that it is at least as hard or perhaps harder than RL conditions - but it gets easier with practice, and not having icons forces a better discipline of looking around.

On the navigation issue: this is particularly difficult playing SP as the missions often include cloud cover of 5/10 upto 9/10, making landmarks hard to see and identify. This is made harder because the inflight map is poor and using the "O" map covers your screen so you cannot look for long. (Unless I have missed some trick...) The key here is to use your watch: once you have heading and speed you need to identify a landmark and estimate time to reach it. Then hope for a gap in the cloud.... which you will not always get. Even the best navigators get lost sometimes so you need a plan for if that happens, preferably a clear direction and landmark so that you can follow a rule like "fly west until hit major river, then follow left until reach large town, identify town", or reverse your old heading and go back to the last landmark. Absolutely the worst thing you can do is fly around at random.

March 31, 2015

For navigation by dead reckoning some rules of thumb:

Navigation by traditional means takes big chunk of your attention and brain capacity. Experience of navigating by dead reckoning and familiarization of a terrain reduces the need of focus constantly to navigation a little bit, but still you need constatly be aware where you are and where you need to go.

1) Study map carefully before a flight, plan and memorize (and write down on the paper, or even better to the printed map but who wants to destroy one and only map available) you route including compass bearing and distance and expected flighttime of each leg, memorize visual landmarks of the route and spot significant objects along the route, plan exit routes directly to nearest friendly airbase if/when problems arise

2) During the flight always be aware of your flight direction (even in combat) by constantly checking the compass, construct a mental picture of expected landscape and landmarks of upcoming terrain based on pre-flight study of landmarks. If the mental picture and visually seen terrain differs, you my friend, are lost! :D Try to approach planned direction from last known spot on the map and locate known landmarks like railroads, roads, rivers, forests which are easier to cross to pinpoint your approximate location.

3) Keep your map on the knee (or table or otherwise always easily to see place, like iPad etc. next to your main screen) always and put your finger (at least mentally) to the location you are right now.

4) Buy and use TrackIR and turn your head like an owl to see enemies and pinpoint your location constantly If you lose your track of current location, you are lost.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Damixu

March 31, 2015

Still not understood what's the purpose of the light blue circles on the map...

March 31, 2015

If you're brand new to BoS Expert settings (specifically navigating) this might help (no promises haha)

http://www.thewetbandits.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39

March 31, 2015

I've probably spent a majority of time on the Axis side. (I sure wish I had the actual statistics of hours per aircraft but that's another topic.)

Anyway it recently slapped me in the face that there is working nav gear on the Yak and LA-5. Seems pretty attractive to me.

Edited March 31, 2015 by avlSteve

April 1, 2015

If you're brand new to BoS Expert settings (specifically navigating) this might help (no promises haha)

http://www.thewetbandits.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39

Just had a little time to take a quick look and definitely will be back to watch it all! Thanks!

April 1, 2015

Checking your compass is just as important as checking your 6! Once you learn and start employing this, the problem melts away.

^ this.

I missed this yesterday, but this is absolutely critical... and it's tougher if you're hittin the sauce.

Making this second nature (just like keeping your head on a swivel) is massive.

April 1, 2015

Started focusing on keeping an eye on the compass. Baby steps. Thanks to all for the tips!

April 1, 2015

Remember one of Boelcke's rules is to always know where you are

January 12, 2017

I can understand that you can learn with time (and by zooming) if an aircraft is a buddy or a target. But the map thing seems very interesting. Although i am a real pilot it seems crazy without the right tools.

How is this going to happen without a navigation map and some tracks being plotted there for each mission? No mountaineous terrain, only snow, lakes, roads and rivers. (and some cities if lucky)

You guys are navigating with the general feeling? Thats amazing if you know all the terrain, congrats!

I am flying Normal settings but Expert seems impossible for me at least without some numbers ready for use.

The link above is not working by the way!

I am really interested in how you guys plan to reach the point of interest and turn back to homebase (tools-wise), especially online.

I have no idea how online gaming works. Do you plan to depart and recover all together (mission) or there is a continious fireball somewhere that everybody gets killed somewhere in time (dogfight mode) ?

Just out of curiosity where is the navigation equipment of Yak (avlSteve is talking about) ?

Edited January 12, 2017 by lantirn

January 12, 2017

Usually navigate by sight and compass. Identifying lakes, rivers, towns etc. Needs some practice but it isn't that difficult after a while you learn to look for distinct features.

There is no fireball you need to look for enemy planes. They are usually around the objectives though.

Edited January 12, 2017 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

January 12, 2017

So I should get used firstly with the terrain through the offline modes!

January 12, 2017

Not necessarily. You can learn your nav by flying CAP and protecting your home airfield. Stay close to home and learn your immediate surroundings. Venture out as you gain confidence.

You can also hook up with teammates on TS who know the lay of the land and can get you home in a pinch.

Lastly, you can escort bombers - they tend to fly longer straighter routes and are always happy for some fighter guys hanging around.

Edited January 12, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

January 12, 2017

I am really interested in how you guys plan to reach the point of interest and turn back to homebase (tools-wise), especially online.

I have no idea how online gaming works. Do you plan to depart and recover all together (mission) or there is a continious fireball somewhere that everybody gets killed somewhere in time (dogfight mode) ?

For navigation, use a combination of rivers/cities/roads. Don't try to navigate with forests, too hard.

Personnally I use rivers A LOT.

When I'm on an airfield, I check in which (approximate) heading is my objective. Then I check on the map which rivers I'm supposed to cross if I follow this heading.

Takeoff, I take my heading (approx...).

And when I spot the first river, I identify exactly where I am by using river turns, river crosses, bridges, cities, roads... and adjust my heading by a few degress if necessary.

Open map, check the next river.

Fly, spot the river, identification.

Open map, repeat, fly.

The advantage is that this method works at every altitude.

With a bit of training you can even use this method at tree level during sneaky raids in il-2s for example...

Never understood those who fly with precise headings, timers and so on... if something goes wrong in their plan, they get lost so easy xD

Just a small tip, practice first on summer maps.

Navigation on winter maps is harder, you need to practice first, start by the easier

Edited January 12, 2017 by -IRRE-Centx

January 12, 2017

Never understood those who fly with precise headings, timers and so on... if something goes wrong in their plan, they get lost so easy xD

Every few minutes you identify a major landmark and designate it as a rendezvous point. After something takes you off course, head back there and continue your lines. Even if you're off a little bit, you'll eventually come across a landmark you had a waypoint on and can sync up with your route to continue on.

January 12, 2017

IMHO the major landmark thing works very well. The main thing that you have to learn is to approximate how far on the map you have traveled (given a general direction) in a given time span. That lets you narrow down the area on the map that you are looking at.

January 12, 2017

Thank you all.

Basicly what you describe can be found in any "entry level" navigation book and these are basic foundation skills that pilots gain through their basic training! The point is due to modern navigation equipment today, you forget these skills.

Regarding maps, I am using BoS and most of the times I encounter a terrain full of snow which is as you said difficult to begin with!

January 12, 2017

Navigating in BOS is in many ways worse than in real life. Mostly because of limitations rendering targets / building. and the distance limitations. I find it very hard in winter maps. Then you really need to stick to your course.

Sometimes I am tired and want some easy flying, I wist there where a more serious GPS server than WOL. But then again I have some scripted campaigns.

I hope Kuban will be more elevated landscape and have better landmarks

January 12, 2017

1 Square on the map is 10 km. If you fly at 400 kph you travel through 10 km in 90 seconds. if you go diagonal it can be up to 130 seconds.

I use rough estimates of 1.5 minutes for normal transition through square and 2 mins when I go near diagonal. Usually navigating works very well this way. always plan routes and landmarks before you go on a flight, that helps greatly. in addition, I can only recommend this tool: il2missionplanner.com

January 12, 2017

A map square is 10 km across

If you fly at a simple speed, 300KMH, 1 square = 2 mins

400KMH = 1 min 30 secs

It is easy to approximate time and distance of your flight without too much mental gymnastics

or cruise at speeds which are multiple of 60kmh (1 km per minute) 6x60 = 360kmh = 6 KM per minute, the maths is also simple to do

Time and distance can become second nature using aircraft clock or stopwatch, even rough workings out at oblique headings will get you in a grid 'square' hopefully with some easily identifiable landmark to confirm

**EDIT** LoL see above post while I was typing

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited January 12, 2017 by Dakpilot

January 12, 2017

I don't have Track IR yet - so I fly on Normal settings when I go online.

Problem is normal servers are all empty during US, Eastern Time Zone evenings. I'm tired of checking and seeing 0 or 2 people on a normal settings server every single time.

January 12, 2017

Yep. Thinking in NM (Km) per min, fractions of 6 is the way, then multiplying by the minutes!

The tool il2missionplanner.com is exactly what I wanted!

You can have it in you laptop by your side to look for your preplanned tracks and distances!

January 12, 2017

Just wait until we get the pacific theatre... Navigation may kill more than the enemy, at least during the beginning

January 12, 2017

Just wait until we get the pacific theatre... Navigation may kill more than the enemy, at least during the beginning

Depends on how fast you can despawn/inflate your life vest

January 12, 2017

Well I hope we have frequencies and choices to change them so we can navigate by beacons. They used that in naval aviation from the start of ww2. I am just not sure if it was just beacons for home.

January 12, 2017

Well I hope we have frequencies and choices to change them so we can navigate by beacons. They used that in naval aviation from the start of ww2. I am just not sure if it was just beacons for home.

I didn't know anything about this. How would this work if the only locations that could provide a radio beacon were the home carrier group if no land bases were nearby?

January 12, 2017

radio navigation aids.

January 12, 2017

Thanks Sokol1, this works in COD and is absolutely a thrill to operate with.

January 12, 2017

Are there any historical navigation aids currently included? I don't think there are?

Normal vs Expert

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