I have seen the future of flight simming

[Freycinet]

I think the idea is that in the near future your real life joystick is in a fixed position on your desk and you calibrate your virtual hands by holding the real joystick and check virtual hands are holding virtual joystick - so you still are using the real one ( while wearing a thin pair of gloves that detect your hand movement etc for in game movement...blaa blaa you get the idea... )

 

There is also something like this:

 

https://www.leapmotion.com/

 

Looks pretty cool and not too expensive...

[Freycinet]

The concept of the rift is seemingly a great leap forward for an immersive visual experience, but the idea of moving my "virtual" hand to click/move a "virtual switch" seems a big downer in immersion, even pressing a key on a keyboard would give me more of a tactile link to the "world" I am in, than "feeling" things in mid air, in the same way that holding a "virtual joystick" would feel wrong

A good Hotas with a good button setup would go some way to get that connected immersion, but again not being able to see your hands would give me a feeling of flying in a cockpilt full of smoke and disconected to my enviroment/controls in some way.

Perhaps I am thinking too old school but in a WWII sim the disconnect between visual and tactile seems a big gap to bridge. In a modern or space sim this could be amazing, but if I had to fly full IFR in a real A/C with just the relevant instruments displayed on a screen like a rift I would not feel comfortable. especially in a combat or emergency situation 

I am sure something will be thought of but at the moment that part of it seems, imho, to give less immersion than say a triple screen and a good hotas (when thinking of WWII flight sim)

 

Perhaps I am not being forward thinking enough as far as the tactile/visual interface could work, the argument that a pilot should know by feel where all his controls will be is just not a realistic one.

While the experience would certainly be amazing in itself there is still something big missing/yet to be developed to make this work as a "realistic" simulation

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Hey Dakpilot,

 

I think you are being a bit more "anguished" about all this than really necessary. I don't see a big need to be moving your hands around in empty space to interact with a virtual cockpit, pushing buttons in thin air. As I described it, a joystick and a mouse are perfectly fine together with OR. The thing with OR is that it really perfectly mimics just sitting in reality and looking around. So there is no "jump" from what you do now (sitting in front of your monitor) to what you'll do with OR. The only difference is that your "monitor" is suddenly surrounding you on all sides. You can still interact with it via stick and mouse, just as you can interact with your present monitor with stick and mouse.

 

What is needed for OR to work well with flightsims is simply a proper, fully-fledged on-screen clickpit, so the fact that BoS won't have that is a bit worrying...   

[DD_bongodriver]

_{so the fact that BoS won't have that is a bit worrying...}

 

 

Heresy........kill him......kill him with fire!!!

[SKG51_robtek]

He said "Jehova"....

 

or is it `"Jahwe" in english?

[Dakpilot]

Well i do think that this  technological development will actually save money rather than be an additional burden, it HAS to be cheaper than a decent triple screen setup for ten times the immersion   

 

​Unfortunately I find it hard to make the the leap of faith that moving a mouse to point at a switch and click it will be more immersive/real than even pushing a button on a keyboard or using a hotas, who knows I may even come around...  

 

I am certainly no naysayer, but the visual/tactile disconect from the controls is something i hope a different solution can be found for. In a modern Jet I think this would work perfectly, but for complex prop and multi engine WWII era Aircraft I will need some more convincing   but there  is plenty of time for that

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Uufflakke]

I found a simple way to get a slight impression of what to expect from the OR.

 

The split images on YouTube did not make that much sense to me. Your eyes keep seeing two images and don't merge them into one. 

To achieve them to  merge I used small binoculars in the reversed way and moved slowly closer to the screen. When the distance was about 8 centimeters the two images blend into one 3D image.

It only works with the default YouTube video (i.e. not full screen). The 3D image is quite small but  it gives a sense of depth.

 

 

 

Besides the War Thunder videos it works wonderfully well in a video like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D47MAQ9U6qE

 

Note: don't let anybody seeing you when experimenting with this "device". Before you know it they will call a medic to take you away.

 

 

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Well i do think that this  technological development will actually save money rather than be an additional burden, it HAS to be cheaper than a decent triple screen setup for ten times the immersion   

 

​Unfortunately I find it hard to make the the leap of faith that moving a mouse to point at a switch and click it will be more immersive/real than even pushing a button on a keyboard or using a hotas, who knows I may even come around...  

 

I am certainly no naysayer, but the visual/tactile disconect from the controls is something i hope a different solution can be found for. In a modern Jet I think this would work perfectly, but for complex prop and multi engine WWII era Aircraft I will need some more convincing   but there  is plenty of time for that

 

Cheers Dakpilot

You are right that there is a disconnect.  AT least with the DEV kit.  While looking through the Rift, you will actually reach for the controls that you see in front of you.  Its THAT convincing.  Obvious problem is that there are no controls there.  You can reasonably remember where your controls are but to get a specific key on your keyboard you have to lift the headset off your face. 

 

The OR team has said they are acutely aware of this limitation.  And Im sure they are thinking of very cool solutions to this problem.  But its an interesting conundrum we are facing here.  We actually have a device that fools us into thinking we have controls that are in front of us and its SO BLOODY convincing that we reach out our hands to grasp them.    Cool things are a foot.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Has anybody tried a Leap Motion with a clickpit cockpit ?

[MACADEMIC]

I have, with DCS. The idea to use your natural hand movements to turn knobs or flick switches is a fascinating one, but Leap is too limited in what it can do to even come close to realizing this concept. It isn't capable of detecting subtle movements and is not precise enough. You can assign general movements to switch functions, I got this to work but it is very strenuous and doesn't feel natural at all. Location precision is also a big issue.

 

So no, not recommended.

 

MAC

[HagarTheHorrible]

I have, with DCS. The idea to use your natural hand movements to turn knobs or flick switches is a fascinating one, but Leap is too limited in what it can do to even come close to realizing this concept. It isn't capable of detecting subtle movements and is not precise enough. You can assign general movements to switch functions, I got this to work but it is very strenuous and doesn't feel natural at all. Location precision is also a big issue.

 

So no, not recommended.

 

MAC

 

I wonder if it would theoretically be possible to use a tablet computer, placed in front of you to represent the control panel in the cockpit.  The camera on the tablet follows a marker on the end of your finger which in turn moves the cursor in the cockpit. Touching the tablet screen brings up a control function representing whatever the in cockpit cursor is pointing at, a switch or rotary knob etc. Your finger then does the appropriate action to perform the function, pressing, sliding, rotating etc. Just thinking out loud

[Wind]

...   

 

 

Hey Freycinet!

 

You happen to have some kind personal comprehensive reading list about OR?

Have started to read up on the subject in the last days, as I will start to study a bit on the AR/VR in the univ in the coming

weeks. Have read a lot from their forums but would be interested in what other people // institutions have come up with.

 

I think my angle will not be gaming concentrated but more about remote sensing and virtual spaces for commercial use.

And I have noticed that the amount of materiel I need to read to get me up to speed...well...it is enormous!

So if you (or anyone else) happens to have their favourites or your personal "you gotta read this lists", bring it on!

[Panzerlang]

I would think a micro-cam fitted to the headset, activated by one of the buttons on a joystick that would switch the screens to the cam-view, would solve the problem.

[MACADEMIC]

I wonder if it would theoretically be possible to use a tablet computer, placed in front of you to represent the control panel in the cockpit.  The camera on the tablet follows a marker on the end of your finger which in turn moves the cursor in the cockpit. Touching the tablet screen brings up a control function representing whatever the in cockpit cursor is pointing at, a switch or rotary knob etc. Your finger then does the appropriate action to perform the function, pressing, sliding, rotating etc. Just thinking out loud

 

I think you'll be much better off with touch controls on the tablet than the Leap. It's too clumsy as it is and not precise enough. But tablet as a panel is a good idea too.

 

MAC

[Rigsby]

The Oculus Rift, is pants in it's current form. Tridef software helps it along a bit, but believe me it's nothing more then a total blur with Rift ready games. I have ended up selling mine due to horrible motion sickness and a resolution that looks like the first ever Doom Game. I much prefer to have really good graphics then walking about like you need to find your glasses. Also, from what I hear the Oculus HD is also blurry, so I'm not building my hopes up for that one either. 

 

I will admit though, if they get rid of the terrible resolution and horrible blur right, then this will be an awesome peace of kit. As it is right now though, it's plain awful.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Rigsby

[DD_bongodriver]

I think loading the oculus with extra tech is going to start making it more expensive and in turn defeat the object of oculus's main aim which is to bring this stuff to the consumer at affordable prices, IMO the most realistic implementation for an interface really is to use the mouse, the theories I've heard about mouse imprecision make no sense to me, on my desktop I can point the cursor to a pixel, I think the click pit needs a redesign though, rather than have a 2d cursor trying to hover over the correct part of the screen make the cursor a 3d element in the actual scene, this would give it stability and precision because it stays where you put it in the scene, once it is placed on the relevant zone you have the mouse wheel and buttons to control the functions, the wheel for a rotary control and LMB/RMB for multi position switches.

 

p.s. oculus is not rubbish as it stands, it's just not much use for a combat sim, but having used it in outerra anteworld to fly the mig-29 around mountains it is an incredible feeling of flight.

Edited November 5, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[thx1138]

I think OR is amazing and the wave of the future for flight sims. But there lies the problem, the future, not right now, or even in the near future. It's still in the R&D phase and not even close to being ready for prime time. Not by a long shot...

 

What it will take is some kind of gloves wired into it to allow actually pushing buttons and moving switches and controls in the cockpit combined with higher resoloution. Setup like this I'd love to fly F4, or DCS world P 51 with complete clickable cockpits !

 

I don't think BOS or any of the current sims should spend even one penny on it just for the very very few that would use it. That $$ would be better spent making changes the greater community would benefit from.

 

Actually I think OR will really take off in the RC flight world, there it would be a big help for people flying.

[DD_bongodriver]

Problem with the gloved hand is you'd need to ensure the space ahead of you is clear of obstructions like desks etc. just imagine reaching out for that shiny button and cracking your knuckles on the edge of an invisible desk.

[thx1138]

Problem with the gloved hand is you'd need to ensure the space ahead of you is clear of obstructions like desks etc. just imagine reaching out for that shiny button and cracking your knuckles on the edge of an invisible desk.

 

 

That and the lack of any tactile feel.

 

Another problem is when a wife/girlfriend comes into the room and want's to tell you something. With Trackir, at least I can look up at her breasts opps I mean eyes and talk while flying. I can just imagine what would happen if I had OR on my head and didn't take it off fast enough, something bad would happen !

 

The main problem with OR is Trackir. The old saying "The Enemy Of Better Is Just Good Enough" holds true here. and Trackir is more than just good enough.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want to see OR succeed but we are a long way away from it being really usefull for flight simming IMHO

[JG27_Chivas]

It appears the motion sickness problem has been addressed.  One of the development team members had horrible motion sickness every time he tried the OR.  He says he no longer has the problem with the latest build. 

 

There has been no word on what the resolution of the consumer version other than it will probably be more than 1080P.  I would guess it will be atleast 1080P for each eye.

 

The development team has been very quite lately.  My guess is they don't want to give their competition any more info, and they are still testing screen type and resolution possibilities.

 

IMHO the best solution for combat flight sim control is a complex HOTAs.   Its quite easy to learn to feel where all your button/axis/rotaries are and program them far all your needs.   Clickable cockpits and even some type of glove would work but it wouldn't be as immersive as the tactile feel of a four unit Hotas system consisting of something like a Joystick, Throttle, multi-lever fuel/mix/rad, and rudder/brake pedals.

 

The Oculus Rift will be a sim game changer far beyond what Track IR brought to the table.   I don't see any reason why a very effective consumer version won't hit the streets next year, that could be used in any number of commercial uses.  The OR will probably see a number of versions over the years as displays and other technical advances are made. 

[Rigsby]

p.s. oculus is not rubbish as it stands, it's just not much use for a combat sim, but having used it in outerra anteworld to fly the mig-29 around mountains it is an incredible feeling of flight.

The first time I put the Oculus Rift on I thought the same as you. However, once the Rollercoaster demo had been played out, I gradually realized how awful it is. The only thing it has got going for it in it's current form is the immersion, but even that isn't great when everything around you is just a blur. I found wearing it frustrating and all I kept thinking was, if this was clear it would be great.

 

Lets hope it improves, I wouldn't mind paying more for a better product.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Rigsby

[DD_bongodriver]

Novelty wears of, I'm sure I could get bored of sleeping with Sandra Bullock after a while, but since using the oculus I literally can't use trackir or similar any more, because now my eyes don't have to move the opposite way to my head, the picture I want to see is always in front of my face just like in real life, even with the low resolution the immersion is amazing, we also need to remember that all rifts in current circulation are dev kits and are not sold as final commercial products so they will improve as they develop the tech and the resolution is the priority.

[Feathered_IV]

It just got announced that the single retail version is to be released next year. I'm thinking I'll be best off getting one of those fancy mice with 12 or 16 buttons for most flight inputs. Mapping one or two of the buttons on the top of my stick to ctrl or alt would double or even triple to number of useable functions on the mouse.

[thx1138]

Novelty wears of, I'm sure I could get bored of sleeping with Sandra Bullock after a while

 

 

Well what the hell is wrong with you ?????????????????????????

 

I couldn't !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

(but then I've been married before to a nympho and have one now...)

[71st_AH_Hooves]

The first time I put the Oculus Rift on I thought the same as you. However, once the Rollercoaster demo had been played out, I gradually realized how awful it is. The only thing it has got going for it in it's current form is the immersion, but even that isn't great when everything around you is just a blur. I found wearing it frustrating and all I kept thinking was, if this was clear it would be great.

 

Lets hope it improves, I wouldn't mind paying more for a better product.

I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.  I felt the exact same way.  I then realized its just a dev kit that wasnt even intended to be ready for prime time, and I can hardly wait until the retail (or now Dev kit 2) is out.  I have heard from some very reliable people that the HD dev kit is about 1000x better than the dev kit when it comes to seeing things at a distance and that Dog fighting with it wont be an issue at all.  And best of all 1C and the 777 crew got to talk to the OR devs at Gamescom and Im sure that they are building a relationship that will benefit all flight simmers.  Man the future is is looking bright!

I would think a micro-cam fitted to the headset, activated by one of the buttons on a joystick that would switch the screens to the cam-view, would solve the problem.

I think this is the avenue that the OR devs originally thought of as well, It was even in a 2d concept picture that they used in a press conference.

I guess some people are afraid that technological development might mean they have to spend a bit of money to continue the hobby.

The funny part is that the OR even in the release product is going to be less than a high end joystick, or about as much as 2 track IR's.  The whole cost argument doesn't hold much water.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Hooves

[FlyingNutcase]

It just got announced that the single retail version is to be released next year. I'm thinking I'll be best off getting one of those fancy mice with 12 or 16 buttons for most flight inputs. Mapping one or two of the buttons on the top of my stick to ctrl or alt would double or even triple to number of useable functions on the mouse.

 

Whatever hardware has to go with it, I'll get, assuming it's as immersive as people say. Why would you use a mouse instead of the buttons on a throttle though?

 

Assuming all that comes together okay the only reservation I have is the complete shutout of reality - it's nice to at least give my wife a thumbs up or a wink while in in multiplayer and talk a bit while in single-player. "Going dark" might seem a bit anti-social, lol. 

[SKG51_robtek]

I still believe that, especially for multi-engine pilots, the clickpit is a must to adress the multitude of necessary secondary buttons, switches and levers.

One button on the Hotas could create a hotspot in the center of vision where a second button could create the approbiate action, like rotating a knob or pushing or pulling a lever.

This way one could stay i his immersive worldview, had the tactile response for the primary functions from his Hotas and still could do things like frequency changing for the

Nav-radio, tank switching, setting bomb delay and drop distance, choose which bombs to release, all the little things that a air superiority fighter pilot never sees.

Usually the bombers and fighter-bombers win a map, so they should get some attention too.

[Feathered_IV]

Why would you use a mouse instead of the buttons on a throttle though?

 

 

Mostly because I can get more buttons on a mouse.  Plus I position my stick beneath the desk where one would expect it to be on a real aircraft (up at chin height with my arm twisted like a dog leg doesn't work for me).  Beneath the desk the four side buttons on my MS sidewinder are awkward to reach for, and a multi-button mouse is great for the engine management controls and weapons etc.  I find I rarely have to take my eye off the screen.

 

With the OR I was thinking of getting a mouse like that shown below.  It's very easy to keep it in the left hand when flying and map your inputs to it.  With a couple of joystick buttons mapped as ctrl, alt and shift for example, you can triple the number of functions by having ctrl-1 alt-1 shift-1 etc and your controls mapped to them.  Even alt-mousewheel etc is possible. Making it one very versatile hotas.

 

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

It appears the motion sickness problem has been addressed.  One of the development team members had horrible motion sickness every time he tried the OR.  He says he no longer has the problem with the latest build. 

 

 

 

Not having tried the OR, this is just speculation about motion sickness.. I would be greatful if anyone who do have access to a device can comment.

 

It seems to me though that motion sickness should occur when you use OR in a game where your body is actually moving.. forward, left or right using arrows or A/S/W/Z setup. Your brain gets confused when your sight tells you that you are moving in a direction but the signals from your body tells you that you are sitting in a chair?

 

In games (sorry ..sims) like BoS, you really should not have issues, because the representation of  YOU in-game is obvious sitting down..

 

Any comments from OR-owners?

Edited November 6, 2013 by F19_Klunk

[DD_bongodriver]

Yes, FPS games can still make me feel a little queasy but flight simulation has no effect whatsoever any more

[Rigsby]

It just got announced that the single retail version is to be released next year. 

 

Link Please.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rigsby

[Feathered_IV]

https://www.google.com.au/#q=oculus+rift+release+2014

 

http://www.incgamers.com/2013/10/oculus-rift-second-dev-kit-confirmed

 

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/24075-oculus-rift-expected-to-launch-in-2014-compatible-with-pc-and-android/

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

Honestly, i think that the idea of a small cam, like those in a smartphone, is a great idea!!

 

It should be installed on the front panel of the device.. By clicking on a small switch, the user - instead of viewing the game, sees what's in front of him.... in 3D even

 

That way I don't have to remove the device when the mrs approaches... even though I will be looking even sillier than I did when I had a dot on my forehead with the first TIR

 

EDIT. I guess this confirms my suspicioin about movement sickness
users using VR headsets for extended periods of time experience discomfort due to the disconnect between your perceived in-game movement and your (lack of) physical movement and inner-ear balance

 

And about that camera... doesn't it look by this that they have thought about it?

 

consumer launch Q4 2014?

Edited November 6, 2013 by F19_Klunk

[Rjel]

I know there have been a couple of gaming keyboards in the past. They might still be out there for what I know. It would be nice if we could get one set up for sims. One that featured larger keys and toggle switches laid out in such a fashion that one could learn their position and find them easily while wearing a VR unit.

 

Uuffakke mentioned turning around binoculars to view the images in 3D. Someone several years ago posted similar twin 3D images and used the method of crossing one's eyes to bring the 3D image into view and then relaxing the eye muscle. I can do that without much eye strain although I wouldn't want to do it for long periods. I do wonder the effect of wearing a VR unit longterm. Has there been any discussion to it's possible side effects on the eyes?

 

[Rigsby]

https://www.google.com.au/#q=oculus+rift+release+2014

 

http://www.incgamers.com/2013/10/oculus-rift-second-dev-kit-confirmed

 

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/24075-oculus-rift-expected-to-launch-in-2014-compatible-with-pc-and-android/

 

Not sure where you got your info about the release, I just read one of the links you posted and it says this below.

 

“We are not going to formally announce a new development kit or the consumer version any time this year. Also, we’re working to ensure that content built using the current Rift development kit is compatible with new Oculus hardware, though there will be a bit of integration required to take advantage of the new features, especially for the best experience.”

[JG27_Chivas]

Not having tried the OR, this is just speculation about motion sickness.. I would be greatful if anyone who do have access to a device can comment.

 

It seems to me though that motion sickness should occur when you use OR in a game where your body is actually moving.. forward, left or right using arrows or A/S/W/Z setup. Your brain gets confused when your sight tells you that you are moving in a direction but the signals from your body tells you that you are sitting in a chair?

 

In games (sorry ..sims) like BoS, you really should not have issues, because the representation of  YOU in-game is obvious sitting down..

 

Any comments from OR-owners?

 

 

 

Owners of the current dev kit will be of no help, they won't have the latest build with much improved latencies etc.   A percentage of the current dev kit users did have motion sickness problems, some worse than others, but it mostly improved with usage.   I read in an interview {which I can't find at the moment} that a member of the Oculus Rift development team had severe motion sickness "everytime" he tried the OR, but that its no longer a problem with the latest build, that's not available to the public.  I've also read there might be a final dev kit more representative of the consumer release supplied only to developers in the process of building OR ready games, to further refine their games before the consumer release, still planned for next year.

Edited November 6, 2013 by JG27_Chivas

[JG27_Chivas]

I found one of the interviews regarding motion sickness

 

http://allthingsd.com/20131017/oculus-rift-will-be-a-no-motion-sickness-experience-with-4k-display-ceo-says/

[Rigsby]

The motion sickness is another reason I got rid of my Dev Kit. The Tridef sofware helped me a little with motion sickness, but as soon as I increased the Fov on it I felt instantly sick again. I usually lasted about 30 mins before I felt sick, but with some crappy demos I felt instantly sick. Most things are blurred over distance in the Oculus Rift, but some demos were beyond blurry even at close range and that had me wanting to puke badly. I used to watch the demos of the Rift when you could see the split screens on the monitor. I used to think that is the screen you would see in the Rift, but how wrong I was. 

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rigsby

[JG27_Chivas]

The motion sickness is another reason I got rid of my Dev Kit. The Tridef sofware helped me a little with motion sickness, but as soon as I increased the Fov on it I felt instantly sick again. I usually lasted about 30 mins before I felt sick, but with some crappy demos I felt instantly sick. Most things are blurred over distance in the Oculus Rift, but some demos were beyond blurry even at close range and that had me wanting to puke badly. I used to watch the demos of the Rift when you could see the split screens on the monitor. I used to think that is the screen you would see in the Rift, but how wrong I was. 

You do realize that you were a tester for a proof of concept dev kit, and it would not represent the final product.  That's one of the reasons I didn't spend three hundred dollars on a dev kit when the consumer version might be available in a year or so.  I'm sure the dev kit has succeeded in its purpose of evaluating the priority of issues that need to be fixed/improved, asses the market, and peak the interest of game developers to start the ball rolling.   The interest in the dev kit inspired another 16 million in private monies over and above the 2.5 million if kickstarter monies, that allowed them to hire some of the brightest minds in the business to refine the product.

[Feathered_IV]

Not sure where you got your info about the release, I just read one of the links you posted and it says this below.

 

“We are not going to formally announce a new development kit or the consumer version any time this year. Also, we’re working to ensure that content built using the current Rift development kit is compatible with new Oculus hardware, though there will be a bit of integration required to take advantage of the new features, especially for the best experience.”

That's because I was annoyed at your terse "Link Please" demand and thought it a bit rude.  I did not spend too much time sifting through the links and thought I'd let you work for it.  If you filter out the older stuff you will find the news from the last few days about the single retail model released in 2014.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I experienced some kin dog sick feeling when I first started using the rift.  But it took about 5 sessions of 10 mins a piece. to get over it.  I went out of town for a month came bad and had to redo the whole acclimation process.  But I can tell that once you get over it, you can do a lot of very cool demos.  A lot of the MS problem comes from the low res and slow pixel switching times.  These two things have been fixed in the DK2, and the 6DOF is going to help TREMENDOUSLY.  

 

   Things are moving along quite nicely as I see it and hopefully 777 and the OR guys are talking it out to make the implementation smooth.  Im wondering if the OR build will be in the release on Tuesday.