Bussard_x Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Just realised that the versions we have in BOS are equipped with the M-105PF engines, they came in 1942, so not present during battle of Moscow. So I assume they will not be in the campaign. 1
Danziger Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Maybe later on. I would love the early pointy nosed Yak-1 with the big glass but I would much rather have my MiG-3 first.
Yakdriver Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 but the other way around is possible... the Bom stuff can (if accurate...yadda yadda) be used in BoS single player campaign. so all you BoM bums... also grab a copy of BoS, g'ddammit
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Not unless they add some sort of earlier version. That'd be easy with the Yak-1 but requiring a little more work with the LaGG-3. A Series 4 would probably be more appropriate to the Moscow battle and it has several design differences not to mention the massive array of guns on the front which they later whittled down to just the 20mm and the 12.7mm.
Brano Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 MiG-3 wast most numerous new generation fighter deployed in front fighter units in summer of 1941.Followed by LaGG and last one was Yak.So the choice made by devs is valid.But ofcourse,if time and resources allows,it would be nice to see some early series Yaks and LaGGs with P and PA klimovs.
Finkeren Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 I think there's some chance we'll see them at some point along the road, maybe a Ju 87B2 as well. After all it's not that big conversion of the existing planes. At least I hope we will se them. Yet the choice by the devs not to model them right away makes sense. They had to pick 10 planes for BoM, and if they had gone with early LaGG and/or Yak models, more than half the planes in BoM would've just been slightly modified versions of planes that are already in BoS. Imagine how much whining that would've caused. MiG-3 and I-16 as the main VVS fighters are the obvious choices since they were the two Soviet fighters to see action in the highest numbers in 1941 and neither of them are already in BoS. 1
Porkman Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Yet the choice by the devs not to model them right away makes sense. They had to pick 10 planes for BoM, and if they had gone with early LaGG and/or Yak models, more than half the planes in BoM would've just been slightly modified versions of planes that are already in BoS. Imagine how much whining that would've caused. I was about to mention that. I agree with you completely
Freycinet Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 The similar versions of LaGG's and Yak's will hopefully beome available over time as the sim series pans out.
Bussard_x Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 We have a plane set up of 21 planes for the BOS campaign when BOM comes out.
Y-29.Silky Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Not too worried about it, just looking for the new aircraft for BOS. The air warfare in the battle of Moscow was as exciting as the air warfare over Stalingrad, ie it wasn't.
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Not too worried about it, just looking for the new aircraft for BOS. The air warfare in the battle of Moscow was as exciting as the air warfare over Stalingrad, ie it wasn't. Not sure I agree with you there. The Battle of Moscow was the finest hour for the PVO and the first major victory in the air for the USSR. The entire scale of that battle was just insane, and the air war was no exception. In terms of aircraft losses it was on the same scale as the Battle of Britain.
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I think there's some chance we'll see them at some point along the road, maybe a Ju 87B2 as well. After all it's not that big conversion of the existing planes. At least I hope we will se them. Yet the choice by the devs not to model them right away makes sense. They had to pick 10 planes for BoM, and if they had gone with early LaGG and/or Yak models, more than half the planes in BoM would've just been slightly modified versions of planes that are already in BoS. Imagine how much whining that would've caused. MiG-3 and I-16 as the main VVS fighters are the obvious choices since they were the two Soviet fighters to see action in the highest numbers in 1941 and neither of them are already in BoS. Completely agree. After they announced the project I thought pretty hard about their choices and if I would have made any alternative choices... and ultimately they picked all of the right aircraft for this (given the limited numbers). As little rehash as possible but with sensible and competitive choices suitable for the stated time period.
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I honestly think I'd have gone with the Su-2 instead of a very similar IL-2 just to keep things interesting (also IIRC there were more Su-2s in service in 1941 than IL-2s) Else I agree Shamrock
Freycinet Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Not too worried about it, just looking for the new aircraft for BOS. The air warfare in the battle of Moscow was as exciting as the air warfare over Stalingrad, ie it wasn't. That's cool: you care about secondary theatres and sideshows, some of us care about the main fighting in WWII, no problem having different interests.
unreasonable Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Not sure I agree with you there. The Battle of Moscow was the finest hour for the PVO and the first major victory in the air for the USSR. The entire scale of that battle was just insane, and the air war was no exception. In terms of aircraft losses it was on the same scale as the Battle of Britain. Really? The ground war was indeed epic but I suspect the air war was not, with rather small forces operating when they could in very poor weather conditions over huge areas. The LW only had 5 Gruppen of fighters in the Moscow sector by November 1941. It lost 301 single seat fighters in Q4 1941 and a further 307 in Q1 1942. Over two quarters this is still less than losses of 699 in Q3 1940 - the Battle of Britain period. (Data from US Strategic Bombing Surver collated from German documents). I do not have other figures: no doubt the Soviets lost many aircraft, mostly to ground fire I would guess. Do you have figures? Edited March 28, 2015 by unreasonable
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Really? The ground war was indeed epic but I suspect the air war was not, with rather small forces operating when they could in very poor weather conditions over huge areas. The LW only had 5 Gruppen of fighters in the Moscow sector by November 1941. It lost 301 single seat fighters in Q4 1941 and a further 307 in Q1 1942. Over two quarters this is still less than losses of 699 in Q3 1940 - the Battle of Britain period. (Data from US Strategic Bombing Surver collated from German documents). I do not have other figures: no doubt the Soviets lost many aircraft, mostly to ground fire I would guess. Do you have figures? I don't have the book on the PVO anymore, but I distictly remember some of the figures, because they surprised me as well. During the entire fighting around Moscow and counteroffensive (some thing like september 1941 - may 1942) the PVO alone destroyed some 1300 LW aircraft. Mind you: The PVO was responsible for all the anti aircraft defenses as well, so most of these propable weren't air-to-air kills. Sorry, I can't substantiate the numbers better. For all I know they might be wrong, but they're the only actual numbers I've seen on the PVOs merits during the BoM.
wtornado Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I guess I will be routing for the Luftwaffe in this one. With a kill ratio of 5.5:1 the Luftwaffe did quite well for June to December. With the VVS losses from 21 000 to 25 00 depending on your sources. The MIG-3 was the most modern fighter available then and lets say it was far from being a master piece of an aircraft. Besides that throw in a few YAK-1's (not many) and a few I-153' and and I-16's and you got yourself a real turkey shoot coming. Playing IL-2 and all of the old series games I made little to no missions based on Moscow seeing that the Luftwaffe always had control of the skies. Lets just say when they announced the Battle of Moscow as the new add-on it did not spark enthusiasm for me anyways from what i have always read on the matter from the air anyways.
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) With a kill ratio of 5.5:1 the Luftwaffe did quite well for June to December. With the VVS losses from 21 000 to 25 00 depending on your sources. True, but in that you have to count the 10,000+ aircraft lost in the very first days of the campaign, when the Soviet forces were in complete disarray with no coordination and almost completely unprepared. The Luftwaffe kill/loss rate for the relevant period for BoM (sep 41 - may 42) would be more like 2:1, which is still bad news for the VVS/PVO, but not a complete turkeyshoot. The MIG-3 was the most modern fighter available then and lets say it was far from being a master piece of an aircraft. Besides that throw in a few YAK-1's (not many) and a few I-153' and and I-16's and you got yourself a real turkey shoot coming. The MiGs combat performance was mostly hampered by an almost complete lack of pilots who actually knew how to fly the aircraft and further aggravated by being employed in roles it was unsuited for. In fact of the three new fighter designs, the MiG-3 was the one to have its teething problems ironed out fastest. Pokryshkins combat record shows, that the MiG-3 was far from impotent. In the end it was just the wrong design for the war that was emerging on the Eastern Front. The I-16 actually often did better in combat than the newer designs in 1941 due to the fact, that VVS pilots had a lot more experience with it, where practically all of the pilots who flew the new fighters had transitioned to them only months or weeks before. Playing IL-2 and all of the old series games I made little to no missions based on Moscow seeing that the Luftwaffe always had control of the skies. I would rather say, that by late 1941 Luftwaffe was losing control of the skies. Not because the VVS/PVO was doing a lot better (they weren't) but simply because the LWs forces had been depleted and most of their planes were rendered unserviceable by the poor winter conditions. Edited March 28, 2015 by Finkeren
unreasonable Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I don't have the book on the PVO anymore, but I distictly remember some of the figures, because they surprised me as well. During the entire fighting around Moscow and counteroffensive (some thing like september 1941 - may 1942) the PVO alone destroyed some 1300 LW aircraft. Mind you: The PVO was responsible for all the anti aircraft defenses as well, so most of these propable weren't air-to-air kills. Sorry, I can't substantiate the numbers better. For all I know they might be wrong, but they're the only actual numbers I've seen on the PVOs merits during the BoM. Fair enough: a quick wiki search reveals: "A classic example of a major political organization of defence and industrial center was the defence of Moscow. It was carried out by the 1st Air Defence Corps and the 6th Fighter Aviation Corps PVO. As part of these formations at the beginning of massive Nazi air raids had more than 600 fighters; more than 1,000 guns of small and medium calibers; 350 machine guns; 124 fixed anti-aircraft barrage balloons; 612 stations; and 600 anti-aircraft searchlights.[citation needed] The presence of such large forces, skillful management organisation foiled enemy attempts to inflict massive air strikes. Just broke the city 2.6% of the total number of aircraft. Air defence forces defending Moscow destroyed 738 enemy aircraft.[citation needed] In addition, assaults by the 6th Fighter Aviation Corps inflicted heavy blows, destroyed 567 enemy aircraft on the ground. Overall, the Air Defence Forces destroyed 1,305 aircraft, and in combat with the enemy armies destroyed 450 tanks and 5,000 vehicles.[citation needed]" There are some largish numbers in here but also some "citations needed".... I would see these more as "claims" than "confirmed losses", but I have no idea how inflated they might be. I agree with your other point that the LW was losing control: or rather that it could gain control at any time it wished, but only over a very small area close to its own fighter bases, due to the huge extent of the front, the reduced number of units in theatre and attrition and poor conditions as you say. Given that the Soviets were always opening up new offensives this made it very difficult for the LW to have a decisive effect. I almost wonder if the battle would have been different even if neither side had had any air force at all.
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) I agree that those numbers might be incorrect. It looks like the (rather poor standard) Wikipedia article had their hands on the same book I did. Those numbers might well be inflated, though you'd tend to think that the PVO which mostly did defensive operations would have more accurate claims, simply because most of their kills would happen on the Soviet side of the front line. In any case: My point was not to say, that the VVS/PVO did well during the BoM (they didn't) but that the air battle really was quite substantial and actually did end in defeat (or at least a very pyhrric tactical victory) for the Luftwaffe. Edited March 28, 2015 by Finkeren
wtornado Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 No matter be it to the MIG-3' poor handling capabilities and lethal spin characteristics. It was fast!.Yep it was good at high alt...That is pretty well it it. Apparently when it went into a spin you did not come out of it. The old IL-2 series had modeled that affect to a good degree lets see if the devs will make that historically accurate in this game too. And the old series Russian planes were good in turn fights you just boom and zoom the hell out of them like the Luftwaffe pilots did choosing the perfect attack plan and path having complete control of the engagement due to speed climb and experience. The Moscow campaign still does not interest me it never did. Due to the fact that ,that air war was pretty well one sided in that fight. Winter will not help me on a online server in this game. Same for WWI aircraft.
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 No matter be it to the MIG-3' poor handling capabilities and lethal spin characteristics. It was fast!.Yep it was good at high alt...That is pretty well it it. Apparently when it went into a spin you did not come out of it. That's only halfway true. Yes, the early MiGswas not well balanced and had a sharp stall, this was common to pretty much all Soviet fighter designs of the period, and it didn't pull itself out of a spin like the I-16 tended to do. However, the myth that it was somehow a 'death trap' is a misunderstanding based on a few special incidents before and early into the war, where inexperienced pilots got into spins at high altitude and din't know how to recover. In reality the MiG-3 could recover from a spin just fine if you knew how to. To help the rookie pilots and reduce the risk of accellerated stalls the MiG was the first Soviet fighter to ave automatic slats installed in July 1941, by the time of the Battle of Moscow most MiGs in service had slats and also had the ventral fuel tank removed which greatly improved balance. The MiG-3 was also quite maneuverable. It had worse sustained turn than the early Yak-1 (and ofc the I-16) but better than the LaGG-3, it handily outclimbed both at altitude and outrolled all of its opponents.
-TBC-AeroAce Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Do we know if BoM will be a summer or winter map?
Dakpilot Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I believe it was said there will be Summer, Autumn and winter versions and also coming for Stalingrad map Cheers Dakpilot
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Do we know if BoM will be a summer or winter map? Both, and an autumn version too 3 or 4 DDs back it was announced, that all existing maps and all maps produced henceforth will become available in 3 versions: Winter, summer and autumn. EDIT: Dak beat me to it. Edited March 28, 2015 by Finkeren
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 That being said: Of course most of the BoM campaign will necessarilly take place on the winter map, but at least we will see other seasons.
Finkeren Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I think a lot of people will long for the snow once they discover just how hard it'll be to spot aircraft against a background that's not pure white 1
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I love the snow (but then I'm Canadian :D) but it will be great to have Summer and Autumn. I'm especially excited for how colourful Autumn should be.
unreasonable Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I think a lot of people will long for the snow once they discover just how hard it'll be to spot aircraft against a background that's not pure white Ah, but you forget that the default skins for the summer and autumn maps will be the white winter livery... coloured skins will have to be unlocked by completing the SP campaign... 1
BraveSirRobin Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Ah, but you forget that the default skins for the summer and autumn maps will be the white winter livery... coloured skins will have to be unlocked by completing the SP campaign... The default skins in BoS are summer skins.
Finkeren Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 The default skins in BoS are summer skins. I think he's making a joke. Assuming that since the summer skin is the default one on our current winter maps then of course the winter skin must be the default on a summer map
unreasonable Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I think he's making a joke. Assuming that since the summer skin is the default one on our current winter maps then of course the winter skin must be the default on a summer map
BraveSirRobin Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 I think he's making a joke. Assuming that since the summer skin is the default one on our current winter maps then of course the winter skin must be the default on a summer map Of course. They do seem to be working hard to make the skins as screwed up as possible.
Jaws2002 Posted March 29, 2015 Posted March 29, 2015 Plane choices of 777 had always been off. The ROF also got planes just randomly thrown in there, without any meaningful historical perspective, to help create meaningful historical content. BOS was not that bad, as it only got one wrong, but very popular plane, but BOM will be pretty bad from the historical perspective. The two "bonus" planes don't belong in any of the two main scenarios, Stalingrad and Moscow. This is a disappointing aspect of this team and it doesn't look that things are improving in this respect. 1
Brano Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 At least 2 IAPs of Stalingrad PVO were equipped with Kittyhawks.
Dakpilot Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Yep, 126th IAP flew 194 aircraft sorties at Stalingrad before being worn down as a unit and transferred to LA-5 oct-nov P-40 also flew at Battle of Moscow with126th IAP and did more than 300 sorties October onwards, although they used P-40 E at Stalingrad am not sure which model was at Moscow could have been B-C/Tomahawk MKII or maybe some E models? Cheers Dakpilot
Jaws2002 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Didn't know that. Thx. I thought they only got Tomahawks up to Stalingrad.
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Even the MC.202 saw (extremely extremely) limited service on the Eastern Front. I think as far as this development model goes (pro and con) the Premium aircraft selected have all been smart choices. If you are restricted to just a singular battle in each product and you're restricted to about 10 aircraft per release (given artist and data development) then you need a way to add some variety to the aircraft list and these two (MC.202 and P-40E) are pretty good choices as the La-5 Series 8 and FW190A-3 were. Fighters are popular and they are "more interesting" than another variant of a fighter we already have. That's not to say that I don't want at least 3-4 Yak versions in the time period we already have but I can understand that not everyone would be enamoured with those choices.
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