Ju 87 rear gunner accuracy

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I know there have been several posts that have mentioned the accuracy of AI gunners, but am I alone in thinking that the rear gunners in Ju 87's appear to have super human shooting abilities.

 

The 87 has become my nemesis! I don't seem to have anywhere near as much trouble with the other AI gunners as I do with those square jawed backseaters.   

 

[LoneMerc]

I know there have been several posts that have mentioned the accuracy of AI gunners, but am I alone in thinking that the rear gunners in Ju 87's appear to have super human shooting abilities.

 

The 87 has become my nemesis! I don't seem to have anywhere near as much trouble with the other AI gunners as I do with those square jawed backseaters.   

 

I almost use 87 all the time, and I have no trouble getting shot down by a single aircraft. Perhaps a change in tactics? But I know how you feel to me the ground AA is murder.

[[TWB]80hd]

I only notice this in SP campaign mode... it doesn't seem as bad as it used to, but they are pretty ridiculous tagging you while in a scissors.

 

Also, you can clearly see them firing through the tail/fuselage in the replay viewer.  You can sit under their tail and back a bit and they will rock and roll on you.

 

You do that in a player's plane, you'll tear it up haha

[Brano]

For some reason even top scoring Jagdwaffe experten in the East were reluctant to go after bombers/sturmoviks.Their average split in total score was 14-15% bombers/attack/recce planes and the rest 85% were mostly inferior fighters.Follow this split and you will win internet

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

80hd' timestamp='1426776504' post='244706'] I only notice this in SP campaign mode

The uber 87 gunners, are as you say predominantly in SP but even now the accuracy seems to be rather too good. Some of the angles that they shoot and hit from seem unrealistic.

 

 

 

to me the ground AA is murder.

  I agree, particularly from transport convoys!

 

 

 

For some reason even top scoring Jagdwaffe experten in the East were reluctant to go after bombers/sturmoviks.Their average split in total score was 14-15% bombers/attack/recce planes and the rest 85% were mostly inferior fighters.Follow this split and you will win internet

I will ignore the 87's from now on, It's inferior fighters all the way now

[[TWB]80hd]

OC, you want some therapy?

 

LaGG-3, Intercept, 37mm with AP rounds (I mean, HE if you want, I just like rail gunning them).

 

Find the Shtukaz, lag turn, low yo-yo, swim up from underneath and just get all Karate-kid-crane-kick-moment-of-zen... single 37mm, aim center mass, egress.

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

OC, you want some therapy?

 

LaGG-3, Intercept, 37mm with AP rounds (I mean, HE if you want, I just like rail gunning them).

 

Find the Shtukaz, lag turn, low yo-yo, swim up from underneath and just get all Karate-kid-crane-kick-moment-of-zen... single 37mm, aim center mass, egress.

 

Now I have a 37mm "ho ho ho"

[Y-29.Silky]

AI gunners in general are insanely accurate, except when they're "your" AI gunner.

 

Human gunners are even worse!

[Bussard_x]

I think AI gunners are okay as they are now. Yes they fight back. If you do a high speed attack from the side AI gunner won't get you easy. If you aproach from their six, they wil give you a hard time.

If AI gunners would be easy you can down 3/4 bomers every mission, not really the case as it was.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I think AI gunners are okay as they are now. Yes they fight back. If you do a high speed attack from the side AI gunner won't get you easy. If you aproach from their six, they wil give you a hard time.

If AI gunners would be easy you can down 3/4 bomers every mission, not really the case as it was.

I agree, I'm really glad that the AI gunners are not a push over but sometimes the accuracy seems uncanny, as [TWB]80hd  said they sometimes shoot through the tail/fuselage. You can approach below and low down on their 6 and they seem to be able to shred your aircraft to ribbons. Maybe it just me, but the gunnery angles and accuracy seems a little unrealistic at times.  

[Willy__]

All this talking about the gunners remembered me that a few patches ago we had dead gunners shooting, LOL  . Couldn't test with the latest patch though.

[reve_etrange]

I only notice this in SP campaign mode...

 

Campaign has scaling difficulty based on "pilot level," so I think the longer you play campaign the harder it will get. The cap on enemy skill must be pretty high...

 

I wonder how AI gunner (in player plane or AI plane) works in MP? Probably there are some related mission building parameters...

[TheNotoriousFNG]

Campaign has scaling difficulty based on "pilot level," so I think the longer you play campaign the harder it will get. The cap on enemy skill must be pretty high...

 

I wonder how AI gunner (in player plane or AI plane) works in MP? Probably there are some related mission building parameters...

 

This is probably the most annoying thing about the campaign to me...it'd be nice if AI skill was random or adjusted depending on the phase of the battle/stage of the war!

[Felix58]

Sometime during development the devs mentioned the difficulty of programming gunners "to get close misses" or to find that "sweet spot".  So it seems it will always be too accurate for some or too hopeless for others. 

Whenever I am piloting a crewed plane the gunners couldn't hit the side of a barn it seems.

But when attacking a crewed plane they seem quite deadly, particularly if you are silly enough to sit on their tail and blat away.

[Wulf]

IMO the air gunners are way too accurate.  If you attack from the rear, even at great speed, they will almost always get you.  And if you attack at speed, from high above; either straight down or from the beam they will get you about 50% of the time.  What's worse, they don't just hit the aircraft.  Hell no.  They seem to have this uncanny ability to hit some vital components - typically the engine.  I can kind of understand the airframe being hit a few times in an attack but this ability to repeatedly hit the engine seems somewhat unlikely.

 

Now, my Dad was an air gunner during the War (1941-42).  In our discussions on the topic he made it very clear to me that, in his experience at least, attempting to defend your aircraft with rifle cal. weapons, against cannon armed fighters, was essentially futile.  

[Comes]

I also think that they are a little to accurate. And I really hope for a fix for the difficulty in the campaign at level 9 or 10, 

Had to cover a few Pe-2. Had one wingman and there were about 8 109s coming after us over the target area...

Just impossible...

[FlatSpinMan]

Was he in a Wellington, perchance?

[Wulf]

Was he in a Wellington, perchance?

 

 

If your asking about my Dad, no, he flew in Bristol Beaufort torpedo bombers.

[wellenbrecher]

I only notice this in SP campaign mode... 

This.

I've never noticed any instantly catastrophic damage due to rear-gunners in MP. I got shot down for the first time ever by a AI gunner the other day because they put more holes into my Yak's wings than I could wave a stick at and I subsequently ran out of fuel on the way home, but that stands in no relation to the nigh-instant death bubble that I have experienced in SP.

That got better with recent patches, mind, but the difference in "difficulty" when comparing SP and MP is still insane.

 

 

I think I wrote this once already, but I kinda feel like there's a different code for the gunners at work depending on whether it's human or AI controlled.

Or it's just the lag that the AI can't compensate for?

Or it's just the scaling reve_etrange mentioned. But that still begs the question: Why would you do that?

Edited March 20, 2015 by wellenbrecher

[6./ZG26_Custard]

That got better with recent patches, mind, but the difference in "difficulty" when comparing SP and MP is still insane

The MP experience defiantly seem much more realistic, I have only had 3 kills when flying a bomber, 1 from AI and 2 when I took a gunner position, and that was only because they stayed right on the 6 and I couldn't miss.

 

 

Edit: I have lost count of the amount of times I have been shot down because my AI gun crews in MP couldn't hit a barn door! 

Edited March 20, 2015 by OriginalCustard

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

They seem to have this uncanny ability to hit some vital components - typically the engine.

Switch to targeting computer!

[Brano]

Typically the engine is that part of the plane facing rear gunners first

[Jade_Monkey]

I have noticed that my AI rear gunners have savem me from some tense situations, especially when on the Pe-2.

They seem to perform incredibly well

[Skoop]

For the sake of replay of the campaign, I'd like to see user adjustible settings for the gunners for both Ai crewed planes and AAA. At pilot level 10, it's not much fun replaying campaign missions with sniper ai gunners every where.

 

I love AI pilots at level 10, but the gunners need to be tonned down a few levels.

[BlitzPig_EL]

For the sake of argument, and because it will be coming soon to a sim near you, the Bf 110 was considered meat on the table for any single engined fighter during the Battle of Britain, rear gunner or not.

 

This has never been my experience in IL2/46 or CloD, as the AI gunners are all unhuman snipers with death ray weapons.  I'm betting this will be the case in BoS/BoM as well.

 

The Bf 110 was well suited to many roles, but defending itself against real fighters was not one of them.

 

Time will tell if this trend in sims continues.

Edited April 18, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

[6./ZG26_Emil]

For the sake of argument, and because it will be coming soon to a sim near you, the Bf 110 was considered meat on the table for any single engined fighter during the Battle of Britain, rear gunner or not.

 

This has never been my experience in IL2/46 or CloD, as the AI gunners are all unhuman snipers with death ray weapons.  I'm betting this will be the case in BoS/BoM as well.

 

The Bf 110 was well suited to many roles, but defending itself against real fighters was not one of them.

 

Time will tell if this trend in sims continues.

 

In a dogfight it would suffer but bouncing enemy aircraft that didn't see them coming and making off at high speed it would do fine. With an energy advantage you might get a few more attacks but eventually you'll have to break off and retreat sharpish as you get close to the same energy level as the enemy...bold squad pilots might do slashing attacks and use bag and drag tactics depending on the opponent. I think it could do ok against certain opponents.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

This has never been my experience in IL2/46 or CloD, as the AI gunners are all unhuman snipers with death ray weapons. I'm betting this will be the case in BoS/BoM as well.

 

I think that the AI in BoS is some of the best in any flight sim, but I do believe that the Ju 87 rear gunner accuracy does need to be toned down a tad. I don't think its too overcooked with the other bomber aircraft in the game

[=VARP=Cygann]

Accuracy of AI never bothered me in BOS or ROF, but their super vision in clouds do. Kind of kills quite a bit of areal combat tactics at bad weather.

 

I don't get it why is it so hard in this engine to make clouds to block AI field of vision or greatly reduce it. Many other games accomplished this with smoke or vegetation that are far older then these two titles.

 

It's really annoying that AI ignore clouds, not because they can shot me, but because I can see it every mission and it destroys immersion a lot for me. I find low visibility missions really fun, but it kind of feels bad when I have to follow my own AI because they know enemy is under thick layer of clouds. I can't ignore it when I see they attack and of course, it bothers me that they do that because it would be fair that enemy sneaked under us since I made a choice to fly that high. It just kills a lot of 'simulation' for me, much more then any AI accuracy that is just balancing for their bad maneuvering anyhow. Might as well leave icons on this way, both feel like cheat...

Edited April 18, 2015 by EAF19_Cyclops

[Skoop]

So after reading the comments, I think it would be great for the user to be able to set their own SP AI gunner settings.

 

Include a page in the options that pertains to SP game options, have choices like skill levels for AI aircraft gunners, AA vehicle gunners, static AA gunners.

 

Let the consumer make the choice, it's usually the best way to go.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Skoop

[Aured]

Dead topic, but I'm still having trouble with the AI. Have the devs said anything about it?