Flying Inverted For Quite A While - Bf109...

[Guest deleted@50488]

I confess I never thought the Me109s, specially the most modern models, couldn't sustain prolonged inverted flight, but learned that from my Bf109 K4 in DCS World.

 

Some threads at ED have discussed the effects of flying inverted, and it has even been raised as being modelled in DCS a bit too short in terms of time ( only about 10 seconds when it should be around 14 seconds according to the manuals ), but, truth is I can fly my 109 F4 and G2 for the whole session, or until I run out of fuel or get shot down, in IL2 BOS, there being no oil starvation.

 

Could this be fixed in future patches Devs ?

 

 

[YSoMadTovarisch]

All planes in BoS can fly inverted forever, not just the 109.

[Finkeren]

I agree about some of the planes, but the DB 601/605 and the Klimov 105PF both had direct fuel injection right? Why wouldn't the planes that had them be able to fly inverted for quite a while?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It effects other fluid circles like oil and water and indeed can kill the engine. Same accounts for the Jumo 211 which I read about in manuals (no exact reason given, just the note to not fly inverted constantly, only for short manouvres).

 

My guess is that Klimovs shouldn't be any different in this regard though I might be wrong. I'm not a VVS engine expert.

[YSoMadTovarisch]

They(althought I'm not sure about the Klimov) had direct fuel injection, what happens when you fly inverted is that your engine gets starved of oil, not fuel.

Edited March 15, 2015 by GrapeJam

[I./ZG1_Badger1-1]

Even in the old Il2 ( not sure if it was a mod though) it was modelled

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's an oversight. But how often do you remain inverted for extended periods of time in the sim? Put it in 'Bugs' with some documentation. I imagine this is an easy fix. The Devs will probably appreciate having to fix just eight AC and moving forward as opposed to fixing dozens a couple of years down the road.

Edited March 15, 2015 by HerrMurf

[Finkeren]

Ok, I hear you. I'd like to see it modelled as well. Also looking forward to the gravity fed carbueator on the I-16

[Siegfried]

The fuel inyection system permits instantaneous negative G manouver or short inverted flight but fuel lines got starvation in the tank. When the fuel lines got empty, the engine fade off. The fuel lines feed from bottom in the tank and there's no system for feed fuel from inverted flight condition AFAIK.

 

And assuming that exist, fail oil system anyway.

 

Maybe in modern acrobatic planes such a system exist, but by logic in ww2 fighters and planes in general, would be meaningless.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It's an oversight. But how often do you remain inverted for extended periods of time in the sim? Put it in 'Bugs' with some documentation. I imagine this is an easy fix. The Devs will probably appreciate having to fix just eight AC and moving forward as opposed to fixing dozens a couple of years down the road.

 

With the fact that I can do it forever, I might as well make this a staple in the combat maneuver repertoire.

 

Yes, a substantiated bug report would be great... But the G2 still has a curved throttle axis... 

Edited March 15, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Could this be fixed in future patches Devs ?

Sure it can be fixed..

 

But, is 'this' really at the top of your 'wish list'?

 

Fact, if people want to fly unrealistically, they will fly unrealistically, there is not enough time and money to write code to stop people from gaming the game..

 

So, knowing that in advance, you have to ask yourself.. If I had a say in what the devs do..

 

And, we do via this forum..

 

Is <insert thing here> what I want them to spend their limited time and money on?

 

We as users have to prioritize our 'wish lists'

 

And to be honest, this 'issue' would be pretty far down on my wish list

 

But your mileage may vary

Edited March 15, 2015 by ACEOFACES

[Sokol1]

All planes in BoS can fly inverted forever, not just the 109.

 

 

Yak-1/LaGG-3/La5 engine cut after more than 1 minute in inverted flight (v 1.009) -  a small drop in oil pressure is noted - but start again when go back to normal flight.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Once again people do the devs job. They should pay you or at least make you moderators for your hard forum work discussing any bug or flaw discussed in here and stepping up for them

 

Sarcasm aside, let the devs do their job. It's a (seemingly confirmed) bug, that's it. Of course there are bigger bugs they didn't care for so far but it's still worth being noted.

 

Only than devs can sort them ot and assign them with priotity. No game improves threwout it's existence with a silent comunity.

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Once again people are confused between the definition of a bug and an unimplemented feature.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

With the fact that I can do it forever, I might as well make this a staple in the combat maneuver repertoir

 

Yes, a substantiated bug report would be great... But the G2 still has a curved throttle axis...

Honestly, a couple of months ago I was p@ssed at a gamer who kept trying to bounce me, then rage quit several times when I simply outflew him. On his last one we ended up in a chase again so I taunted him while inverted for a few minutes. Not my typical response or my go to escape plan. Gave me a chuckle though.

[SCG_Neun]

In prioritizing the work on the game...I'd go for AI tweaking and that includes the prolonged inverted flight in those planes as well.  Are there really cyber pilots out there who fly inverted for long periods of time and what's the advantage, anyway?  I mean.....some guys on your six...and the first thought is...I'll go inverted for a couple of minutes...that should do the trick.

[Brano]

Neither Klimov nor Shvecov engine variants in game have direct fuel injection.Both are carburetor fed.

[[BTEAM]_Shifty_]

Neither Klimov nor Shvecov engine variants in game have direct fuel injection.Both are carburetor fed.

Having a carburetor doesn't mean inability for inverted flight. In fact M82 had floatless carburetor until injected М82ФН and M105 too from М105ПА. So all russian planes in game should have no problem with inverted flight as far as fuel is concerned

 

I wish another aspect of carbureted engines would be implemented, that you couldn't add throttle suddenly, have to do it gradually in fear of engine sputtering and stopping

[Brano]

Having a carburetor doesn't mean inability for inverted flight. In fact M82 had floatless carburetor until injected М82ФН and M105 too from М105ПА. So all russian planes in game should have no problem with inverted flight as far as fuel is concerned

 

I wish another aspect of carbureted engines would be implemented, that you couldn't add throttle suddenly, have to do it gradually in fear of engine sputtering and stopping

I didn't say they can't fly inverted.I just stated the fact,that they did not have direct fuel injection.And I know about types of carburetors used for both engines.But thanks to remind others

I do not have my book about Yak1 at hand,but there was written smtg like up to maybe 5 or so minutes for klimov m105 in inverted flight.Might check when back home.

[Primus_71]

Reading this and various other rivet-counting topics on this forum (and others as well), I can understand why developers are moving away from catering to our segment of PC gaming. 

[Zak]

It would be nice to have some trustworthy references presented as a proof.

 

Yak-1/LaGG-3/La5 engine cut after more than 1 minute in inverted flight (v 1.009) -  a small drop in oil pressure is noted - but start again when go back to normal flight.

Here we have it.

[361fundahl]

Yeah I'm sure these planes had a dry sump type or pressurized oiling system to not starve the oil pickup from negative G or inverted flying....

At least I would think they were that far.advanced at that point considering the turbochargers, superchargers, methanol/water injection, fuel injection, etc

[303_Kwiatek]

I doubt these planes got any special system for oil preassure when inverted.

[Brano]

Isn't Daimler engine inverted itself?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Same issue with the Jumo 211 F engine. Here an extract from a Ju 88 manual:

f) Special flight attitudes:

No inverted flights, since engine lubrication system is unsuited. Otherwise all aerobatic manouvres, even if leading to an inverted attitude for short periods, can be flown.

 

Have to dig a bit to find the exact manual again, hopefully I can provide some more detailed refference on that matter.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SKG51_robtek]

Reading this and various other rivet-counting topics on this forum (and others as well), I can understand why developers are moving away from catering to our segment of PC gaming. 

Either one is trying to program a simulation or one isn't.

[Primus_71]

Either one is trying to program a simulation or one isn't.

 

That would be asking too much for your fifty bucks. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by [-]Primus_71

[Feathered_IV]

Galland flew inverted for something like two hours to break the previous world record, so it is possible.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Galland flew inverted for something like two hours to break the previous world record, so it is possible.

 

I am a Galland guy - no joke.

 

Can you please cite this? I would really enjoy reading about it. 

That would be asking too much for your fifty bucks. 

 

$50.00?

 

I think you mean $100.00... 

[FuriousMeow]

All planes in BoS can fly inverted forever, not just the 109.

 

Not true. I tested this a week or two ago in the LaGG or Yak, it takes a few minutes - but the engine will sputter and then cut out until positive Gs are regained. It is indeed modelled.

 

Additionally the 109 uses an inverted V engine already, so they would have had to have a good oil system in order to not kill the engine in normal flight.

Edited March 16, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Reading this and various other rivet-counting topics on this forum (and others as well), I can understand why developers are moving away from catering to our segment of PC gaming. 

Sad, but true..

 

So much easier to make a War Thunder sim..

 

And if the hard core types don't pick their fights..

 

As in focus on what is important in a hard core sim (flight modeling)

 

Chances are we wont have any hard core sims to pick from..

[FuriousMeow]

Zak, some hints, regarding the 109:

 

http://www.havarikommissionen.dk/index.php?option=com_contentbuilder&title=search-aviation-hclj510-2013-242-bulletin&controller=details&id=4&record_id=41&Itemid=225&limitstart=0&filter_order=&lang=en&contentbuilder_download_file=c43f2f96ca5292e717bcfe1f71c67b2ddaef0539

 

from where you cab read:

 

 

"In the last part of the display flight and for a period of approximately 10 seconds, the pilot demonstrated inverted flight.  

Thereafter, the aircraft made a right turn (180°) in normal flight position and followed a traffic pattern with a second right turn to the cross wind leg to runway 21. 

While flying the cross wind leg approximately 24 seconds after the inverted flight was performed, the engine started to misfire and afterwards lost all engine power. 

Without success, the pilot attempted to restart the engine by using the engine wobble pump (primer). "

 

So what does this prove? He was inverted and nothing happened, returned to regular flight and the engine began to fail 24 seconds after inverted flight. This is a 60 year old DB605 rebuild in a rebuilt plane. I'm willing to bet mechanical failure in a rebuilt aircraft was the issue.

 

This is not something any of these simulated aircraft should be modeled after.

Edited March 16, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Inverted flight ........Pfffffftttt!

 

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

LOL

[LukeFF]

I see your Denzel and raise you...

 

 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I see your Denzel and raise you...

 

aces-high-iron-maiden-3406.jpg

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Inverted flight ........Pfffffftttt!

 

 

I was on the floor cracking up when he pulled that maneuver but it actually all made sense factually lol. Shame the rest of the film was about my drinking problem.......

 

 

Ow Sh*t Im projecting again DOH

[BlitzPig_EL]

Sad, but true..

 

So much easier to make a War Thunder sim..

 

And if the hard core types don't pick their fights..

 

As in focus on what is important in a hard core sim (flight modeling)

 

Chances are we wont have any hard core sims to pick from..

 

This right here.

 

The wish list that some of you guys want is barely able to be met in full on military simulators that governments, and F1 teams, pay millions of dollars for.

 

Oleg tried to build a sim that did it all, you see how far the publisher was willing to go with that one.

 

Producing PC entertainment titles is about making money folks.  The number of buyers willing to spent multiple hundreds of dollars, all at once, for a title with the stuff some of you want is far too small to produce a profit

for any publisher.

 

You guys would not expect to get nothing for your hard work, why do you expect that from simulation developers and  publishers?

[Feathered_IV]

I am a Galland guy - no joke.

 

Can you please cite this? I would really enjoy reading about it.

 

In The First and the Last, he tells how he travelled to Italy and at an airfield was introduced to a pilot who held the record for flying inverted. Galland wrote scornfully of this and said he went to his aircraft without a word and proceeded to fly inverted for a couple of hours. Not sure if it was a 109 or He-51 that he flew. Perhaps the inverted DB engine would have helped though.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

In The First and the Last, he tells how he travelled to Italy and at an airfield was introduced to a pilot who held the record for flying inverted. Galland wrote scornfully of this and said he went to his aircraft without a word and proceeded to fly inverted for a couple of hours. Not sure if it was a 109 or He-51 that he flew. Perhaps the inverted DB engine would have helped though.

 

I did some research in between your reply - thanks for that!

 

It sounds like he actually did this in a modified Breda Ba 19...