SCG_Space_Ghost Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 why does it feel like its shooting spit wads now? No minengeschoß. Only generic HE. Or at least that's what I'm getting from it.
AbortedMan Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 What do you mean generic HE? Minengeshoss is HE isn't it?
Cybermat47 Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 What do you mean generic HE? Minengeshoss is HE isn't it? Presumably Minengeschoß is different to regular HE. I wouldn't know, though.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) What do you mean generic HE? Minengeshoss is HE isn't it? Minengeschoß is its own thing. There are also generic explosive cartridges that were being used in the Luftwaffe's repertoire. Not to mention, it is obviously not minengeschoß. Minengeschoß had a self detonating fuse. Edited March 15, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler 1
AbortedMan Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Ah yeah forgot about the self detonation. Still a bit confused about using the word "generic" though. I'm guessing you mean it's a vague implementation of minengeschoss rather than a high fidelity representation of it.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Ah yeah forgot about the self detonation. Still a bit confused about using the word "generic" though. I'm guessing you mean it's a vague implementation of minengeschoss rather than a high fidelity representation of it. Sorry, I'll try to be more precise. Minengeschoß was made from a thin walled drawn shell that gave more room for the explosive load (as I am sure we all know). There were also general purpose HE ammunitions like brandsprenggranate or panzerbrandsprenggranate - the brandsprenggranate being both HE/I and the panzerbrandsprenggranate being SA/HE/I. "Generic" HE ammunitions were being used before the advent of the MG-FF/M(inengeschoß) and before our good friend the MG151/20. Edited March 15, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler
Finkeren Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Nope. Would be awesome to have as an unlock. It would really give an incentive to fly the Bf 109E7 in BoM. 1
SR-F_Winger Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Nope. Would be awesome to have as an unlock. It would really give an incentive to fly the Bf 109E7 in BoM. well, wasnt the minengeschoss the Standard round for 20mm in air to air? So No reason to keep it form the luftwaffepilots other than downgrading their effectiveness. And btw. on diffrence to standard HE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minengescho%C3%9F Edited March 15, 2015 by VSG1_Winger
MK_RED13 Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Really??? Nope. Would be awesome to have as an unlock.It would really give an incentive to fly the Bf 109E7 in BoM. ... Why unlock when it should be standard equipment.. Dev's please reply!!!!!
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Do we know for sure that Mine rounds aren't part of the belting? It would explain the poorer performance of the MG151/20 as it relies on that round to make it competitive. IMHO it should not be an unlock on any aircraft in BoS or BoM because it's standard issue. The Bf109E-7 was standard fitted with the MG-FF/M. The only type I'm not sure about is that forward gun on the He111H-6.
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 I had a conversation with Viks (He is a developer if one does not remember) after presenting him this : http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14693-custom-ammunition-belts-and-greater-variety-ammunition-types/ In general it was about different types of ammunition used in game and absence of some types. I asked for the effectiveness of German ammunition (that was before the patch with updated damage models) and he confirmed more or less my assumptions that German HE is more effective than Soviet. Taken from our PM, his reply (I hope he wont be mad for quoting him, in any case I'm just doing this to clear some field) : PS: actually MG151 in BoS have much bigger HE effect, so mostly - it would take less hits than SHVAK to down airplane. Standard Shvak 20 mm HE round (called OZ and in fact was dual purpose, being HEI round) carried 5.6 g of A-IX-2 material, that was high explosive incendiary mix. This combined high explosive incendiary composition was developed by naval engineer Eugene Grigorevich Ledin in 1940. It was developed to increase the power of armour piercing high explosive projectiles and in fact, A-IX-2 is more than twice as powerful as TNT. A-IX-2 has the following properties: Volume of the gaseous products: 750 litres/kg Explosion energy: 1,550 - 1,720 cal/kg Detonation velocity: 7,800 - 8,510 m/sec Explosion temperature: 4,900° C Ignition temperature: 215 - 230° C Specific weight: 1.65 - 1.80 gm/cc A-IX-2 was basically a mix of 80% A-IX-1 and 20% aluminium powder. A-IX-1 was 95% RDX and 5% wax. To compare similar German round was Brandsprenggranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger carrying 2.3 g HE (PETN) + 2.1 g incendiary material (Elektron). German APHE (Panzersprenggranatpatrone 151) carried 4 g of PETN. I don't know if German HE round is precisely Minengeschosspatrone but its still far more effective than standard Soviet HE round, so its not that far off if at all.
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Very interesting information for sure. Thanks for sharing! 1
II./JG77_Manu* Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 I had a conversation with Viks (He is a developer if one does not remember) after presenting him this : http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14693-custom-ammunition-belts-and-greater-variety-ammunition-types/ In general it was about different types of ammunition used in game and absence of some types. I asked for the effectiveness of German ammunition (that was before the patch with updated damage models) and he confirmed more or less my assumptions that German HE is more effective than Soviet. Taken from our PM, his reply (I hope he wont be mad for quoting him, in any case I'm just doing this to clear some field) : Standard Shvak 20 mm HE round (called OZ and in fact was dual purpose, being HEI round) carried 5.6 g of A-IX-2 material, that was high explosive incendiary mix. This combined high explosive incendiary composition was developed by naval engineer Eugene Grigorevich Ledin in 1940. It was developed to increase the power of armour piercing high explosive projectiles and in fact, A-IX-2 is more than twice as powerful as TNT. A-IX-2 has the following properties: Volume of the gaseous products: 750 litres/kg Explosion energy: 1,550 - 1,720 cal/kg Detonation velocity: 7,800 - 8,510 m/sec Explosion temperature: 4,900° C Ignition temperature: 215 - 230° C Specific weight: 1.65 - 1.80 gm/cc A-IX-2 was basically a mix of 80% A-IX-1 and 20% aluminium powder. A-IX-1 was 95% RDX and 5% wax. To compare similar German round was Brandsprenggranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger carrying 2.3 g HE (PETN) + 2.1 g incendiary material (Elektron). German APHE (Panzersprenggranatpatrone 151) carried 4 g of PETN. I don't know if German HE round is precisely Minengeschosspatrone but its still far more effective than standard Soviet HE round, so its not that far off if at all. German Minengeschoss had 20g of explosives, that's leapes and bounds ahead anything else..should be way more effective then shvak 1
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Did I say it shouldnt be ? I thought the Minengeschoss qualities are obvious, along with amount of explosive material it carried ( 18.6 g of PETN btw). And isnt it effective ? Because my experience says it really is. One just has to hit, because flight trajectory can be tricky. leapes and bounds ahead anything else Anything else in regard to pure chemical energy.
II./JG77_Manu* Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Did I say it shouldnt be ? I thought the Minengeschoss qualities are obvious, along with amount of explosive material it carried ( 18.6 g of PETN btw). And isnt it effective ? Because my experience says it really is. One just has to hit, because flight trajectory can be tricky. Anything else in regard to pure chemical energy. PETN only at the beginning, later (=Bos) HA 41 (Hexagen-Aluminium Mixture). Glad that you googled it. In the other post someone made a lot of testing about the ammunition, and apparently it's nowhere near as effective as it should be. (talking about He ammunition in General) Edited March 15, 2015 by Celestiale
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 HA 41 (Hexagen-Aluminium Mixture). Glad that you googled it. Its Hexagon-Aluminium. But yeah, I simplified things. Anyway, HA 41 is just another kind of explosive material. In the other post someone made a lot of testing about the ammunition, and apparently it's nowhere near as effective as it should be. First I would like to see how does one know he is hitting, as often in combat tracking precisely hits is not easy. As in real life it was not and only some percentage of rounds fired was a hit. Second, half of his rounds are AP and half are HE. So he would have to know which one was HE and which was AP. Could you be so kind Celestiale and provide a link to that post ?
II./JG77_Manu* Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Its Hexagon-Aluminium. But yeah, I simplified things. Anyway, HA 41 is just another kind of explosive material. First I would like to see how does one know he is hitting, as often in combat tracking precisely hits is not easy. As in real life it was not and only some percentage of rounds fired was a hit. Second, half of his rounds are AP and half are HE. So he would have to know which one was HE and which was AP. Could you be so kind Celestiale and provide a link to that post ? You can use "clean" belts with the Lagg, IL2 and La5. And then test between AP and He. That's what the guy did in the other thread about the Minengeschoss on this very Page. Don't know how to link the exact post with my smartphone Sorry, but it's on the last page
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Not a problem Celestiale, there is nothing to hurry I think I found it, you meant this post - > http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15215-minengeschoss-and-latest-version-ammo/?p=243075 Well, it is nice to read but way too simplified to lead to assumptions. For instance I'm flying the LaGG 3 with 23 mm HE belt and cant complain at all, 1-2 hits and 109 goes down. AP certainly might be more effective against tough objects such as engines. Or able to simply penetrate armored plate and kill pilot instantly.
Yakdriver Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 when a man complains about his tools...does that mean he is competent? how about being able to hit a barn door in the first place...i dont see any russkis complain and moan about their ammo.
ShamrockOneFive Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 when a man complains about his tools... does that mean he is competent? how about being able to hit a barn door in the first place... i dont see any russkis complain and moan about their ammo. The two 20mm threads seem to be more about if the Mine rounds and MG151/20 are modelled correctly and historically which is a simulation rather than skill issue.
[TWB]otavio Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Pretty sure german 20mm took a hit last patch. I could usually [Edited] someone up on one good salvo, but not now, yaks seem to be absorving bullets a la war thunder arcade damage model, and bitch please, don't you question my gunnery. Edited March 15, 2015 by Bearcat Profanity
1CGS LukeFF Posted March 15, 2015 1CGS Posted March 15, 2015 Pretty sure german 20mm took a hit last patch. I could usually --- someone up on one good salvo, but not now, yaks seem to be absorving bullets a la war thunder arcade damage model, and --- please, don't you question my gunnery. Watch the language. Nope. Would be awesome to have as an unlock. It would really give an incentive to fly the Bf 109E7 in BoM. Mine rounds are part of the German 20 mm loadout. Please don't' spread bad information.
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Pretty sure german 20mm took a hit last patch. How uncommon... I could usually f**k someone up on one good salvo, but not now, yaks seem to be absorving bullets a la war thunder arcade damage model, and b***h please, don't you question my gunnery. First, there is no need to use such language here. Second, if you havent realized we had a patch adjusting the damage models of both Soviet and German warbirds. Namely, the 109s dont loose their wings at very first hit and Yaks can take more than one hit. So what you see is correct, but what you assume is not. Its not the armament that has changed, as patchnotes indicated only two changes : 19. HE and fragmentation ammo influence on armoured elements fixed: they are now properly protected from low caliber hits; 20. Armour penetration ammo has also been more precisely tuned; But the durability of the airframe and engines. Edited March 15, 2015 by =LD=Hiromachi
Gunsmith86 Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) 19. HE and fragmentation ammo influence on armoured elements fixed: Just tested the 37mm guns on stucka and i like how they modeled the HE rounds well done on that one. 20. Armour penetration ammo has also been more precisely tuned; AP rounds shouldn´t explode on impact and do the same damge like a HE round. pictures: AP hit with 37mm Edited March 15, 2015 by Gunsmith86
MK_RED13 Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Where find info from Dev's about YES/NO minengeschoß in game?????
Yakdriver Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) The two 20mm threads seem to be more about if the Mine rounds and MG151/20 are modelled correctly and historically which is a simulation rather than skill issue. nono! fact is... (fact....lol) fact is... the minengeschoss is already there, modeled accurately in all matters concerning destructive power. maybe not the triggered fuse and blah... but the destructive power is accurate. it is already part of the belting in the German arsenal. see what i mean...? and otavio pours fuel on my fire... "firepower is not enough!" "they toned it down" "now i cannot kill in one pass" when it feels like your gun doesnt impress the enemy any more, then it might, possibly, potentially be the gunner who is at fault. not the gun. but that's an unpopular opinion, isnt it. US? the Players? WE are the ACES... We are constant Headshotters. its easier to pretend they took the firepower away. right? (the goal is to pretend Firepower was removed and to "politely request" [deman- NOW] a rebalance "historically corrected" destructive power for all 20mm Bullets on the german side) been there the last 10 years... always been the Tool. never the craftsman. Carry on... Edited March 15, 2015 by Yakdriver 2
TheNotoriousFNG Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 nono! fact is... (fact....lol) fact is... the minengeschoss is already there, modeled accurately in all matters concerning destructive power. maybe not the triggered fuse and blah... but the destructive power is accurate. it is already part of the belting in the German arsenal. see what i mean...? and otavio pours fuel on my fire... "firepower is not enough!" "they toned it down" "now i cannot kill in one pass" when it feels like your gun doesnt impress the enemy any more, then it might, possibly, potentially be the gunner who is at fault. not the gun. but that's an unpopular opinion, isnt it. US? the Players? WE are the ACES... We are constant Headshotters. its easier to pretend they took the firepower away. right? (the goal is to pretend Firepower was removed and to "politely request" [deman- NOW] a rebalance "historically corrected" destructive power for all 20mm Bullets on the german side) been there the last 10 years... always been the Tool. never the craftsman. Carry on... Sad but true! May necessitate getting in even closer, a la Hartmann
[TWB]dillon_biz Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 nono! fact is... (fact....lol) fact is... the minengeschoss is already there, modeled accurately in all matters concerning destructive power. maybe not the triggered fuse and blah... but the destructive power is accurate. it is already part of the belting in the German arsenal. see what i mean...? and otavio pours fuel on my fire... "firepower is not enough!" "they toned it down" "now i cannot kill in one pass" when it feels like your gun doesnt impress the enemy any more, then it might, possibly, potentially be the gunner who is at fault. not the gun. but that's an unpopular opinion, isnt it. US? the Players? WE are the ACES... We are constant Headshotters. its easier to pretend they took the firepower away. right? (the goal is to pretend Firepower was removed and to "politely request" [deman- NOW] a rebalance "historically corrected" destructive power for all 20mm Bullets on the german side) been there the last 10 years... always been the Tool. never the craftsman. Carry on... Easy there tiger 1
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 -snip- Mine rounds are part of the German 20 mm loadout. Please don't' spread bad information. Hello again. Can you prove that? Did you have some special correspondence with the developers? Did they post that somewhere? Cite. Cite. Cite. Please don't spread bad information.
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Can you prove that? Did you have some special correspondence with the developers? Did they post that somewhere? As I said, I spoke with Viks (and quoted him here) and he said that German HE is modeled to have much bigger effect than VVS HE. That's enough for me.
MK_RED13 Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 ... and VVS AP have double effect than German HE... why we haven't MG151/20mm with minengeschoß??? That's question!!!!
1CGS LukeFF Posted March 15, 2015 1CGS Posted March 15, 2015 Can you prove that? Did you have some special correspondence with the developers? Actually I do, yes. I e-mail VikS with questions about certain details all the time. If you doubt my assertion about mine shells being in the game, ask him yourself. As for the rest of your post I didn't quote - drop the attitude already. why we haven't MG151/20mm with minengeschoß??? That's question!!!! We do.
II./JG77_Manu* Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Don't know about the Minengeschoss<->Russian HE comparison, but Russian AP is obviously bugged.. i also noticed, that it's harder for me to get kills when i am using the HE-only belt with the La5, then the normal one..seems dubious
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) -snip- As for the rest of your post I didn't quote - drop the attitude already. -snip- You're funny. Coping an attitude is not the same thing as asking somebody to back up their assertions. Maybe to you... I'll wait to read your one liner on that. Minengeschoß is not modeled. I have not seen a single self-detonating mine shell. No self detonation? No minengeschoß. No 18+ grams of high explosive and indefensibly less effective than the VVS HE or AP ammunition? No minengeschoß. Now, if in happenstance it is modeled, it is not modeled correctly... Sprenggranate and minengeschoß are not the same thing. But overall I am not surprised by that in the least. Edited March 15, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler
Saurer Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 And why shouldn't there be a Minengeschoß without Zerleger? Munitionsarten für das MG FF 1) Brandsprenggranate Leuchtspur ohne Zerleger2) Brandsprenggranate Leuchtspur mit Zerleger3) Brandsprenggranate Glimmspur mit Zerleger4) Minengeschoß ohne Zerleger5) Minengeschoß mit Zerleger6) Panzergranate ohne Zerleger7) Panzersprenggranate ohne Zerleger8) Panzerbrandgranate ohne Zerleger (Phosphor)9) Panzerbrandgranate ohne Zerleger (Elektron) (gegen Schiffe)10) Brandgranate Leuchtspur ohne Zerleger11) Brandgranate Glimmspur ohne Zerleger12) Sprenggranate Ob ohne Zerleger13) Panzergranate Ob ohne Zerleger14) Sprenggranate Leuchtspur Ob ohne Zerleger15) Sprenggranate Leuchtspur Ob mit Zerleger http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Maschinen%20Gewehre/MG%20FF/mg%20ff%20%20maschinen%20gewehr.html
Wulf Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Of course, there are no free lunches in the Mine shell v standard HE ordinance balancing act. More explosive force with the Mine shell for sure, but also significantly less penetration. Also, when used with other ordinance types like AP you will get differing trajectories because of the differences in projectile weight and therefore reduced accuracy shot to shot. 1
II./JG77_Manu* Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Minengeschoß is not modeled. I have not seen a single self-detonating mine shell. No self detonation? No minengeschoß. That's not quite right, most of the Minengeschoß used by the Germans had a VZ (Verzögerungszünder), they exploded when the shell was half to 2/3 inside the plane (due to obvious reasons). Agree with most of the rest though. A 20mm Minengeschoss bullet should cause a "palm-sized hole". I have honestly never seen that, not on the offensive side, nor in defense. 1
AbortedMan Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 That's not quite right, most of the Minengeschoß used by the Germans had a VZ (Verzögerungszünder), they exploded when the shell was half to 2/3 inside the plane (due to obvious reasons). Agree with most of the rest though. A 20mm Minengeschoss bullet should cause a "palm-sized hole". I have honestly never seen that, not on the offensive side, nor in defense. I believe Adler is talking about the missed rounds...they should be exploding after some distance when not making contact with anything, correct? Did all iterations of Minengeschoss rounds have a self detonating fuse?...because nothing in BoS game-play right now is self-detonating.
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