Minengeschoss And Latest Version Of Ammo...

[widgeon]

What do you think, is the impact of the cannon ammo realistic now, or before the last update?

 

I noted that in multiplayer, what once were disabling hits seem only to cause minor damage. The opponent is able to  fight on as if nothing happened.

 

Tonight, I flew quick missions in a 109, against the 3 opposing fighters. It now takes significantly more ammo to down a single fighter.  

 

High deflection shots have become benign, whereas before it was a way to cripple your opponent.

 

Do you recall the original Il-2, when adjustment was made to ammo power, and the minengeschoss became much more devastating?

 

It seems the opposite has happened with version 1.09.  Perhaps this is more realistic, what say the experts?  

 

 

[ShamrockOneFive]

Not sure what's realistic... it seems like a moving target. It does seem like the cannons are maybe a bit on the weaker side now and maybe they are too weak.

 

For clarity... what happened with IL-2 Forgotten Battles was that the Minengeschoss ammo was not on the standard MG151/20 loadouts. An unusual AP/HE loadout was installed instead and the Mine loadouts were on the gunpods on the Bf109s only. Once the switch was made the MG151/20 went from being a fairly average 20mm cannon to probably being the best one.

 

I'm not sure if IL-2 BoS has the Mine shell loaded in there or not but if not then that's probably why the MG151/20 is underperforming. The Mine round is what makes the MG151/20 so powerful because if you look at its weight of fire otherwise its fairly average having a good rate of fire and good ballistics but with far less raw kinetic power than the Hispano has for example.

Edited March 12, 2015 by ShamrockOneFive

[AbortedMan]

A lot of people seem to think aircraft they hit are "flying as if nothing happened" but I've never been hit by any sort of rounds and nothing happens. I'm slower due to drag, gauges are broken/canopy shattered, engine run time severely limited, guns stop working, or I have to do the rudder pedal dance to stay straight...there's a lot of stuff going on in your target's cockpit that you just can't see when behind or at deflection at a distance.

 

This is with all flight games.

Edited March 12, 2015 by AbortedMan

[reve_etrange]

I noted that in multiplayer, what once were disabling hits seem only to cause minor damage. The opponent is able to  fight on as if nothing happened.

 

Tonight, I flew quick missions in a 109, against the 3 opposing fighters. It now takes significantly more ammo to down a single fighter.  

 

I think an effect of the DM change is to make the location of hits significantly more important.

 

For example, I was just flying a 109 in multiplayer in the TWB/Eagle's Nest server. While in a leftward spiral climb, a trailing Yak had just enough energy for one shot, which hit my engine and forced me to run. You can still bring an aircraft down with a small number of hits if they are all in vital systems.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I tend to agree with you. The MG fire seems ok, but the 20mm cannon appears to be off, especially when you see the effect a 20mm can have on an aircraft.

 

[YSoMadTovarisch]

The question is how many mineshells are there out of 5 rounds?

 

And really, it also depends a lot on where you hit, engine only take 2 rounds or so before dying. A burst in the wing is usually enough to send it flying off. A good burst into the fuselage and it will break in half if your target do any hard maneuver.

 

I actually find the DM in 1.009 very believable.

Edited March 12, 2015 by GrapeJam

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

I actually find the DM in 1.009 very believable.

  

 

I agree that the damage model has improved, before it seemed that a pea shooter could bring an aircraft down. 

 

On the other hand, without the knowledge of actually having to be on the receiving end of a 20mm round (thankfully!) I can only take what photographs, pilots and aircrew of the era can tell us, that is the amount of catastrophic damage that these rounds could and did cause.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Shooting down fighters does seem more difficult than before 1.009.  Which is more historically correct, I have no idea.  A change in the opposite direction seems to have occurred for the He-111.  It used to take multiple attacks to down one, now one pass, one burst with 23mm cannon, one kill.  Have others noticed this as well?  I'd be interested to know anecdotally if the were as fragile as they appear now. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Shooting down fighters does seem more difficult than before 1.009.  Which is more historically correct, I have no idea.  A change in the opposite direction seems to have occurred for the He-111.  It used to take multiple attacks to down one, now one pass, one burst with 23mm cannon, one kill.  Have others noticed this as well?  I'd be interested to know anecdotally if the were as fragile as they appear now. 

There is plenty of video evidence of the sheer amount of damage that a larger calibre round can do to an aircraft. Obviously the larger bombers could take a lot more punishment than the fighters and in real gun camera footage it seems that one 20mm round can literally tear a fighter aircraft apart.

 

The game since 1.09, does seemed to have incorporated much more specific location damage and if you are shooting at He-111's from a distance away it seems that they can take a fair few hits. 

 

I do remember reading somewhere that the Ju-88 could take an awful lot of damage and continue to fly, so it will be interesting to compare if the damage models for  the111 and the 88 are remodelled differently when BoM is available.  

[Gunsmith86]

Germany made tests to find out howmutch hits were needed to down a plane:

 

20mm MG 151/20:

Fighter One engine: 3-5 shots

Bomber four engine: 20-25 shots

 

30mm:

Fighter One engine: 1-2 shots

Bomber four engine: 3-5 shots

[Potenz]

later tonight with a friend we might conduct some controlled test on

the amount of 20mm shells needed to down a bomber or a fighter

[Gunsmith86]

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS

 

CARTRIDGE DESTRUCTIVENESS:

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[[TWB]80hd]

I was overserved last night, so I was unable to make a truly scientific test, but I have been having far more luck with AP ammo than HE ammo, at least in the 23mm and 37mm guns...

 

It started out because I got on an He-111 in my La-5, and from long range I was thrashing his right engine... dozens of hits, confirmed by my wingman (who doesn't give me any slack when I am wrong)... I shifted to the left wing (while continuing to hammer away as I slewed left) and dumped most of the rest of the mag in the process.  Both engines smoked, but plane kept on going like it was cool.  Wingman went high, came back down, and finished him off (cockpit hits).

 

So, we started trying HE 23mm in the LaGG vs 109s, and He-111s... I'm certainly underwhelmed... the disparity between the damage done by two rifle caliber MGs and most of the cannons in the game seems to be a bit off, but maybe it's just my perception...  to expand upon that, I have had many kills with rifle caliber MGs that I felt really lucky about... and many times I've hit with cannon that I felt like I really should have crushed the guy and he either just dives away and goes home, or takes many more rounds to down.  Again, possibly just my perception.

 

But, what I will say is that I started doing anti-bomber runs in the IL-2, because nothing else really seemed to be getting it done... I tried 23mms in HE, and I've tried 23mms in AP... as well as the combination belt... and I tell ya, either AP performs ridiculously well, or I am just much luckier when I am running the AP belt.  

 

I flew up to about 3k, and received notification that a formation of He-111s was about to bomb Beketovka, so I began a shallow dive south.  I picked them up, just under the clouds... 6 AI He-111s... I start to scream down on them, and I realize there is a player amongst them in a 109... he must have noticed me, because he peels off to the left/east... I roll in and put a burst of 23mm AP into one, then another, and they both fall out of the sky.  While these weren't the easiest kills (I've had 111s go into an immediate, terminal spin with ~7 AP 23mm impacts on the fuselage), they were one burst into a wing/engine each.  One of the AI appears to be in a scissors, I hit him a couple of times as he passes back and forth, but he continues on... now, here's where the vodka impairment takes over... I've got the "Hey... don't forget the 109 behind you..." thread going in my brain, but it's on a delay... all of a sudden my right wing gets peppered... I break left, but quickly come back to the right and sure enough, he overshoots... and continues flying straight.  I pull pure, one burst of 23mm AP from maybe 200m out, and his entire tail section is severed.  

 

Same thing happened with the LaGG 37mm the other day... I pulled in on a 109 who was unaware, got close, and fired a single 37mm AP round... entire tail section detaches.  

 

I know this are BIG cannon rounds, but armor piercing taking a tail off from dead six like that?  I could absolutely see it severing something important, ruining the pilot, or even going all the way through the fuselage into the engine... and I am certainly no aeronautical engineer by a long shot, but I've seen cutaways of aircraft fuselage sections, and I have seen many calibers of munitions fired and inspected the damage up close... it just doesn't seem to fit... If it'd been HE, okay... or even a 90 degree shot (from the side) with several large AP rounds (even then I'd expect him to have to maneuver to get it to break away) but I have been wrong about a great many assumptions in this genre before.

 

TL;DR: Rifle caliber MGs seem more effective in this sim than any of the other sims I have flown.  HE cannon rounds (all countries) seem less effective than any other sims I have flown.  Soviet AP in the 23/37mm flavors are extremely effective against aircraft.  (These are observations for discussion only, not cries of bias/nerf/etc)

[Gunsmith86]

Sounds to me as if they accidentally gave the damge of the HE round to the AP one.

 

Here we have the damge done by one 30mm He round.

 

Edited March 13, 2015 by Gunsmith86

[avlSteve]

No expert by any means, and haven't flown enough in .09 to say either way, but I had always thought it was too easy to torch another aircraft prior to the update, so I welcome the added challenge.

 

Come to think of it, have I shot down a bandit since the update? 

Edited March 13, 2015 by avlSteve

[ShamrockOneFive]

No expert by any means, and haven't flown enough in .09 to say either way, but I had always thought it was too easy to torch another aircraft prior to the update, so I welcome the added challenge.

 

Come to think of it, have I shot down a bandit since the update? 

I always thought it was a bit easy too... but I thought the cannons were fairly appropriate while the machine guns were maybe a bit too effective. Now it seems like nothing is terribly effective although that is a very relative judgment on my part. Everything still goes down under a hail of bullets

[[TWB]80hd]

Sounds to me as if they accidentally gave the damge of the HE round to the AP one.

 

 

So, this got me thinking... hey, what if that's exactly what happened last night...

 

Upped with an IL-2 with the 2x23mm and the HE belt, and I went and hosed a Pz IV from the back and the side... zero effect, as intended, so just to rule that out hahaha

 

Anyway, while it's not simply flip-flopped, the ease with which 23mm AP blows wings and tails off made testing the theory plausible, which should be indicative of something right there.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Sounds to me as if they accidentally gave the damge of the HE round to the AP one.

 

Here we have the damge done by one 30mm He round.

 

 

 

30mm had around 4x the amount of explosive per round I believe.

[Gunsmith86]

 

either AP performs ridiculously well, or I am just much luckier when I am running the AP belt.  

 

 

 

Same thing happened with the LaGG 37mm the other day... I pulled in on a 109 who was unaware, got close, and fired a single 37mm AP round... entire tail section detaches.  

 

I know this are BIG cannon rounds, but armor piercing taking a tail off from dead six like that?  I could absolutely see it severing something important, ruining the pilot, or even going all the way through the fuselage into the engine... and I am certainly no aeronautical engineer by a long shot, but I've seen cutaways of aircraft fuselage sections, and I have seen many calibers of munitions fired and inspected the damage up close... it just doesn't seem to fit... If it'd been HE, okay...

I posted the pictures of the damage of the 30mm round to show that a HE round of 37mm is able to detache the entire tail section of a fighter with a single shot.

When in game you get this damage with a AP shots than he is right and that has to be a bug.

 

 

And yes a 30mm  MK108 HE round is about 3.7 times more destructiv than one 20mm MG151/20 round.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Gunsmith86

[TheNotoriousFNG]

I will praise this game for differentiating between HE and AP rounds...whether or not they've nailed down both having their appropriate advantages and disadvantages is the question.

 

I haven't ventured much into MP since the 1.09 patch, but in SP I've found the DM improvements quite nice and IMO, more realistic. I've found deflection shooting to be more effective than getting right on the 6 o'clock as you're more likely to hit a critical area!

 

When it comes to VVS versus Luftwaffe rides, I've grown a much greater appreciation for the rate of fire of the VVS weaponry as that seems to make a world of difference in scoring killing shots quicker/easier! That said, anyone done a halfway decent controlled test comparing the weaponry and its effectiveness against each aircraft?

[Gunsmith86]

19. HE and fragmentation ammo influence on armoured elements fixed:

 

Just tested the 37mm guns on stucka and i like how they modeled the HE rounds well done on that one.

 

20. Armour penetration ammo has also been more precisely tuned;

 

AP rounds shouldn´t explode on impact and do the same damge like a HE round.

 

pictures: AP hit with 37mm

[AvengerSeawolf]

 I do not look for many details on that subject. However lots of times I have to hit a Yak with more than 5 shots with the 20mm to bring it down or to do serious damage on the game.

 

 I am pretty convinced from real live videos that 2 shots in the wing with the 20mm cannon  are enough for the plane that receives that damage  to lose stability so it cannot manouever anymore if not the  wing to break after some  stretch.. In the game I cannot see that, since the yaks still manouever as if almost nothing happened , I thinks that;s a bit off reality, it endures gameplay though but is a bit off.

 

[novicebutdeadly]

ATM my main issue is having the wings of the enemy plane so full of holes that it makes Swiss cheese jealous, yet the enemy plane is still able to pull tight turns as though undamaged (doesn't loose speed, even if the leading edge of the wings are full of holes).

 

[MK_RED13]

Talking about Axis planes or Russian planes.. ?? 

[novicebutdeadly]

Talking about Axis planes or Russian planes.. ?? 

I fly AXIS

[MK_RED13]

I thought so...

[Asgar]

30mm had around 4x the amount of explosive per round I believe.

Last time i checked a German 30mm Minengeschoss had 83g of Nitropenta (quite effective explosive still in use today) the Russian 37mm had 35g of explosive, but i don't know which one, but I doubt it was better than Nitropenta, let's assume they had an equally effective explosive filler. but you can see. So a German 30mm round should be more than 2 as effective than a Russian 37mm.

 

German 20mm had 20g Nitropenta. Russians 20mms had 6g. 23mm had 14g  so...yeah, German 20s should be the most effective when it comes to HE rounds.

 

to the question how many of the fired rounds were Minengeschoss. the only information for the composition of the MG 151/20s belt is  HEI-T (Minengeshoss) HEI-T, I-T I-T, AP

 

BUT I'm sure there were many used combinations. It's just one composition I found.

 

Edited July 22, 2015 by Asgar

[Solty]

Last time i checked a German 30mm Minengeschoss had 83g of Nitropenta (quite effective explosive still in use today) the Russian 37mm had 35g of explosive, but i don't know which one, but I doubt it was better than Nitropenta, let's assume they had an equally effective explosive filler. but you can see. So a German 30mm round should be more than 2 as effective than a Russian 37mm.

 

German 20mm had 20g Nitropenta. Russians 20mms had 6g. 23mm had 14g  so...yeah, German 20s should be the most effective when it comes to HE rounds.

 

to the question how many of the fired rounds were Minengeschoss. the only information for the composition of the MG 151/20s belt is  HEI-T (Minengeshoss) HEI-T, I-T I-T, AP

 

BUT I'm sure there were many used combinations. It's just one composition I found.

 

Yeah, the biggest misconception seems to be that people think that all 20mm shells were Minengeschoss...

Edited August 8, 2015 by =LD=Solty

[VesseL]

Over 2 years of this and nothing. If we could have optional ammo belt with AP rounds only for 109 it would solve the problem for now. Just like LA-5. later they could fix the HE issue

[Guest deleted@30725]

Last time I tried cannons on the mc 202 they were pretty effective, not had a chance to try the 109s though.