The I-16 Thread

[unreasonable]

They were. But the loss rates among I-16 pilots were no worse than for the ones who flew the new fighter designs. I think that says something about both the I-16 and the pilots who flew it.

 

IIRC most of the I16s would have had no radios, and few of the pilots much actual combat experience or live long enough to get much. However, I think they did manage to shoot down quite a few LW bombers and recce aircraft causing severe problems for these units.

 

The only JG with Emils in Barbarossa was JG 27, with another couple of staffels elsewhere, and JG 27 was withdrawn before Typhoon (attack on Moscow), so the few emils left (if any?) would have been in jabo units. I would guess that the vast majority of 109 vs I16 combats would have been vs F2s and F4s.

 

Interesting question of how to attack I16s with 109 F2s or F4s. The problem with the fast slashing attacks and extend approach is that it gives the defender time to turn head on, which is not what I would want in a 109, weakly armed with a water cooled engine.  Even if they are not head on, a quick deflection shot with an F2's armament may not do much good. If you can set up team attacks this is less of a problem but in RL I suspect that this is not always practical. Interesting conundrum.

[Finkeren]

IIRC most of the I16s would have had no radios, and few of the pilots much actual combat experience or live long enough to get much.

That's not quite true. Compared to most other air forces that Luftwaffe faced early in the war, the VVS combat pilots actually had quite a lot of experience. They had hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots with combat experience from Spain, and the border wars with Japan, some with dozens of confirmed kills.

In general, pre-war Soviet pilots were well trained (at least in flying their, often demanding, aircraft) the Soviet aviation schools were among the best in the world. Most I-16 pilots also had a lot of flight hours in their aircraft (something that was not the case for the newer designs)

 

In the end the VVS pilots suffered the calamities they did mostly because of unpreparedness, obsolescent or underdeveloped aircraft, obsolete and inflexible tactics and lack of proper communications (as you noted) and poor cohesion between units and commanders, not because their pilots were no good.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

 Nikolay Gerasimovich:

 

N. G. It was the rare pilot who sought to fly at maximum speed in maneuver combat and even rarer was the pilot who achieved it.

 

 

Very good point!

[Wulf]

That's not quite true. Compared to most other air forces that Luftwaffe faced early in the war, the VVS combat pilots actually had quite a lot of experience. They had hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots with combat experience from Spain, and the border wars with Japan, some with dozens of confirmed kills.

In general, pre-war Soviet pilots were well trained (at least in flying their, often demanding, aircraft) the Soviet aviation schools were among the best in the world. Most I-16 pilots also had a lot of flight hours in their aircraft (something that was not the case for the newer designs)

 

In the end the VVS pilots suffered the calamities they did mostly because of unpreparedness, obsolescent or underdeveloped aircraft, obsolete and inflexible tactics and lack of proper communications (as you noted) and poor cohesion between units and commanders, not because their pilots were no good.

 

What Fink doesn't mention of course is why the Soviets appear to have absorbed nothing from their experience in Spain whereas the Germans emerged from the self same conflict with both an understanding of modern air warfare and what is more, some notion of how you conduct it.  The difference of course is that anyone who stepped outside the Soviet Union in the 1930's was immediately considered 'politically unreliable' if not openly hostile to the regime upon their return.   Those individuals who'd been to Spain and fought in the air war and actually had something to offer the VVS in the years leading up to the Second World War were typically sidelined or purged right out of existence when they got home.   Paranoia and the paralysis inspired by it were probably the biggest problems facing the VVS in the years leading up to the war.  

[Finkeren]

While I might not have mentioned it, Wulf, I completely agree with you about that. Your point about the VVS having learned nothing from the experiences in the late 1930s is entirely valid. However, that's not what I was talking about. My point was specifically about the misconception, that VVS pilots in 1941 were exceptionally inexperienced and/or poorly trained. That was simply not the case. Besides, not every veteran from Spain was purged, and a good deal of those who were were quickly reintroduced to service once the proverbial **** hit the fan.

 

The defeats the VVS suffered in 1941-42 rests primarily on the shoulders of the Soviet government and the military elite, not the pilots.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Those individuals who'd been to Spain and fought in the air war and actually had something to offer the VVS in the years leading up to the Second World War were typically sidelined or purged right out of existence when they got home.   Paranoia and the paralysis inspired by it were probably the biggest problems facing the VVS in the years leading up to the war.  

Nonsense, that was the case for the political affairs and people related to commanding, not pilots. Most of the pilots who survived the Spain were than quickly used over Khalkin-Gol where VVS finally created a strong resistance and eventually gained air superiority over Japanese Army. 

[Brano]

 Those individuals who'd been to Spain and fought in the air war and actually had something to offer the VVS in the years leading up to the Second World War were typically sidelined or purged right out of existence when they got home.   Paranoia and the paralysis inspired by it were probably the biggest problems facing the VVS in the years leading up to the war.  

 

Supreme commanders of several OVO VVS were spanish war veterans and HoSU title barers.Study.Read.Then post.

[Dakpilot]

Agreed but their experience in Khalkhin Gol against the Japanese was not to prepare them strategically or tactically (initially) to deal with the Luftwaffe, basic training of Russian pilots was of a high order, but lack of spares and supply for the more up to date aircraft models also had a big effect on combat effectiveness

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[unreasonable]

While I might not have mentioned it, Wulf, I completely agree with you about that. Your point about the VVS having learned nothing from the experiences in the late 1930s is entirely valid. However, that's not what I was talking about. My point was specifically about the misconception, that VVS pilots in 1941 were exceptionally inexperienced and/or poorly trained. That was simply not the case. Besides, not every veteran from Spain was purged, and a good deal of those who were were quickly reintroduced to service once the proverbial **** hit the fan.

 

The defeats the VVS suffered in 1941-42 rests primarily on the shoulders of the Soviet government and the military elite, not the pilots.

 

I have to say that is entirely contrary to the account given by Gordon in Soviet Air Power in WW2, who discusses this issue at length, quoting documents from soviet sources claiming that the standard of pilot training (and ground maintenance) in 1941 was appalling, to the extent that many pilots could barely take off and land. (pp 42-43) This was due to a combination of purges of experienced officers, the over-rapid expansion of the air force, and the difficulties of changing over to the newer generation of complex aircraft. This in addition to outdated tactical doctrines.

 

The number of pilots with experience from Spain who would have survived that war and subsequent purges was a drop in the ocean: 772 soviet pilots flew, of whom 99 were killed. Who knows how many were purged.... 30,184 aircrew at the start of Barbarossa, so at best 1 in 50 had Spanish war experience, perhaps much less.

 

Good article about Soviet air in Spanish Civil War here  http://www.gutenberg-e.org/kod01/kod20.html

 

Of course this does not make it the pilots' fault - they did as well as they could, so I agree 100% with your last point. But it is not a misconception at all to state that the average level of pilot skill in the soviet air force was very low throughout 1941 and probably well into 1942.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I dont know about 1941 and how the VVS was changing but in books I have on Khalkin Gol it was said that average flight time of the VVS pilots in 1939 there was between 70 to 120 hours, they lacked aerial gunnery training and formation flying training. The incorporation of veterans from Spain was crucial, not only they reorganized the structure but also could teach the younger pilots.

 

But overall VVS pilots had from 5 to 10 times less flight hours and had little to no experience (except of veterans) if compared to Japanese Army pilots.

[LukeFF]

 

 

to the extent that many pilots could barely take off and land.

 

In Bergstrom's books on the Eastern Front air war, he notes that veteran Soviet pilots called the new guys "takeoff-landing", because realistically that's about all they could do.  

[Dakpilot]

Pretty sure that could be said by all veteran pilots about new guys in any air force....this myth about Russian pilots with no training has as much grounding as Battle of Britain pilot with 10 hrs flight time

 

combat experience...that is a slightly different matter

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited March 31, 2015 by Dakpilot

[Wulf]

Supreme commanders of several OVO VVS were spanish war veterans and HoSU title barers.Study.Read.Then post.

 

 

Hmmm ..... okay.  The issue doesn't turn on whether a single veteran from the Spanish Civil War did or didn't rise through the ranks of the VVS after returning from Spain.  Of course, there will always be exceptions to the general rule, particularly if you are one of those individuals who are prepared to just STFU, and do as you're told.  The most important consideration in this situation is the poisonous atmosphere of fear, paranoia and suspicion that permeated all Soviet institutions in the 1930s and the impact that this had on the overall effectiveness of those institutions.  If you were to broaden your reading material to embrace something other than tatty official Soviet wartime publications, of which I'm sure you have many, you may come to understand this - although somehow, I have my doubts.   

[LukeFF]

Pretty sure that could be said by all veteran pilots about new guys in any air force....this myth about Russian pilots with no training has as much grounding as Battle of Britain pilot with 10 hrs flight time

 

combat experience...that is a slightly different matter

 

To an extent, sure, but Bergstrom goes into great detail comparing the German and Soviet pilot training systems. For about the first 18 months of the war, the Soviet pilot training system wasn't even close to that of the Germans.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I've done some reading about the pilot training and force structure and its really during the Battle of Stalingrad, particularly by the time Operation Uranus is launched, that the VVS has their command structure and fighter forces operating with better training, equipment and tactics. Until then they were tending to fly outdated formations and around the Battle of Stalingrad they started to adopt the Finger Four like most air forces did at various points in WWII.

 

There's a fairly common thread in most air forces that old outdated tactics tended to be used at first and only after were they proven to no longer work did more radical changes become accepted.

[=WoVi=cercataa]

On 3/11/2015 at 2:10 AM, II/JG17_Furias said:

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part1.htm

 

 

an excerpt :

 

"A. S. What was your general impression of the I-16?

 

N. G. The I-16 was a complicated aircraft, demanding in piloting technique. It could fall into a spin at the slightest “overhandling” of the stick. True, one could recover quickly, whether from a simple or inverted spin. The I-16 was very agile and could execute any maneuver. I loved this fighter."

 

Then, they nailed it in the game !!!!!

[danielprates]

Worthy necro-ing! This thread is from before me joining this forum and I didn't know it existed. Just spent an hour or so reading it, watching the videos etc. Good stuff, good stuff!

Edited January 7, 2019 by danielprates

[=WoVi=cercataa]

yeah, there are some jewels deep buried inthe forum ;)