What is realism? Does it kill simulators?

[FuriousMeow]

The key combos are more accurate representations than reaching for a mouse to then manipulate a switch that you have to adjust your entire to view to stare at because you can't adjust those dials/switches/etc without staring directly at them in a game.

 

In reality, however, that is much different. No staring, maybe a slight glance but most importantly you don't have to reach for another device to manipulate something on screen. The latter is just silly and foolish, but you've convinced yourself that is the best reality because "clickable cockpits!"

 

The day you have to grab another pilot's hand to reach for a button/dial/toggle and stare at it while you manipulate it is the day you can argue utilizing a mouse for manipulate something on screen is more realistic than a button programmed on a HOTAS or even a key combo that requires a quick glance to locate and operate.

[SKG51_robtek]

I always wonder how much energy and enthusiasm is spent NOT to have ADDITIONAL options.

More options equals more tastes are met.

One can always dumb down, the other way is really difficult.

[DD_bongodriver]

The key combos are more accurate representations than reaching for a mouse to then manipulate a switch that you have to adjust your entire to view to stare at because you can't adjust those dials/switches/etc without staring directly at them in a game.

 

In reality, however, that is much different. No staring, maybe a slight glance but most importantly you don't have to reach for another device to manipulate something on screen. The latter is just silly and foolish, but you've convinced yourself that is the best reality because "clickable cockpits!"

 

The day you have to grab another pilot's hand to reach for a button/dial/toggle and stare at it while you manipulate it is the day you can argue utilizing a mouse for manipulate something on screen is more realistic than a button programmed on a HOTAS or even a key combo that requires a quick glance to locate and operate.

 

 

Hold on there, when did I ever argue against HOTAS? not everything can be mapped, even in real aircraft with HOTAS there are still separate systems that require the pilot to operate and quite a lot of them are not identifiable by 'feel', you seem to be entirely missing the point that a combat/flight simulator encompasses much more than whizzing around the sky going 'pew pew pew', some of us....particularly those that fly in real life still want to experience  more than that.

 

Why are you even arguing? I don't care if you want to use a gamepad or turn off realism, I just want to be able to operate the simulation in whatever way I feel comfortable and am not asking for it to be mandatory for people like you.

[FuriousMeow]

Who are people like me?

 

I'm sorry if you think the mouse manipulating clickable cockpits is realistic, I've already detailed how unrealistic it is. Clickable cockpits + touch screens = realism. Clickable cockpits + mouse = completely unrealistic.

 

Next time you're flying for real, grab someone's hand who is flying with you and stare at all of the switches/knobs/dials/etc while manipulating them with that person's hand. You can't ever look up at the horizon, just stare intently at them to ensure full on real life experience.

[SKG51_robtek]

Well, everybody has his opinion.

Just as long as nobody wants to force his opinion on somebody else.

A 'Clickpit' CAN be used, if available, if not, a keyboard  or homemade instrument panels MUST to be used.

I prefer more choices!

Edited October 7, 2013 by robtek

[DD_bongodriver]

Who are people like me?

 

I'm sorry if you think the mouse manipulating clickable cockpits is realistic, I've already detailed how unrealistic it is. Clickable cockpits + touch screens = realism. Clickable cockpits + mouse = completely unrealistic.

 

Next time you're flying for real, grab someone's hand who is flying with you and stare at all of the switches/knobs/dials/etc while manipulating them with that person's hand. You can't ever look up at the horizon, just stare intently at them to ensure full on real life experience.

 

So desperate to have the last word you are willing to say any old nonsense.

[Bearcat]

OK guys.. have a beer.

 

The bottom line is we all want realism to a degree.. and as long as it is scalable for a wide variety of tastes that should be all that matters. We already know that clickable pits will not be in BoS so the whole discussion of it is moot.

[DD_bongodriver]

We know click pits won't be available 'yet', thankfully Jason sounds open to the idea of expanding subject to the success of BoS and that's what we are 'all' here for.

[Mac_Messer]

Who are people like me?

 

I'm sorry if you think the mouse manipulating clickable cockpits is realistic, I've already detailed how unrealistic it is. Clickable cockpits + touch screens = realism. Clickable cockpits + mouse = completely unrealistic.

 

Next time you're flying for real, grab someone's hand who is flying with you and stare at all of the switches/knobs/dials/etc while manipulating them with that person's hand. You can't ever look up at the horizon, just stare intently at them to ensure full on real life experience.

First off, there are keyboard shortcuts for that.

 

Second, it is nice to actually learn a bit of what a certain aircraft is.

Lat friday, 1CGS showed us a beatiful Ju87 cockpit. So instead of studying the main switches and knobs, figuring out what does what, you`d rather push 2, max 3 buttons to fly rightaway. It is a real loss when a group of people put in so much of their work and talent into modelling it accurately, only to be completely ignored by the arcade crowd.

[DocSnyder]

First off, there are keyboard shortcuts for that.

 

Second, it is nice to actually learn a bit of what a certain aircraft is.

Lat friday, 1CGS showed us a beatiful Ju87 cockpit. So instead of studying the main switches and knobs, figuring out what does what, you`d rather push 2, max 3 buttons to fly rightaway. It is a real loss when a group of people put in so much of their work and talent into modelling it accurately, only to be completely ignored by the arcade crowd.

 

First of all I think it's kinda arrogant to put anyone who disagrees with you into some sort of unwanted group you call "arcade crowd". While there's deffinitely a point in enjoying a fully functionable cockpit and the very design - if you can use it virtually - of different plane's cockpits kinda adds to a realistic feeling (you see ... cause if there only was the option of flying your plane with mouse clicks in your virtual cockpit every plane would be different to fly from the start on, besides the obvious differences). Still I can't agree that this is a must-have for realism, nor that the usage of such an cockpit at the computer gives much of a realistic feeling - but I guess everyone should decide that for themselves. I can't see how it is possibly realistic or even fun to look down at your cockpits instruments, clicking around with your mouse while being in a dogfight. Pilots didn't need that - you can't simulate intuition in a computer game; so that's something that simply can't be realistic to that point.

[ST_ami7b5]

[Mac_Messer]

I can't see how it is possibly realistic or even fun to look down at your cockpits instruments, clicking around with your mouse while being in a dogfight. Pilots didn't need that - you can't simulate intuition in a computer game; so that's something that simply can't be realistic to that point.

What part of "First off, there are keyboard shortcuts for that" did you not understand?

[DD_bongodriver]

Where does this idea come from that anybody needs to be clicking buttons in a dogfight? let alone hundreds of them, the idea of the click pit is simply to give control over every aspect of an accurate and well modelled aircraft, there will be times out of combat where someone might just want to fly the aircraft and enjoy understanding/learning the functions of the various systems, even if it is something simple like turning on the recognition lights, the ability to immerse yourself in these things is very much a plus in my opinion.

 

having click pits does not prevent the user who wishes to simplify things from enjoying the basic combat experience, so why are people so hostile to the idea?

[6S.Manu]

I can understand that clickable cockpits can by used to "learn" the real plane, but many of you don't even think about the cost of this features. Some can be optional, but being optional only means the developer has to work at least twice the time.

 

It would be nice to have good graphic, perfect models and skins, realistic FM, DM, FX, detailed procedures ect in all the same game. But how much time/money would this "project" require?

 

With limited budget I think staying in the middle is the right thing to do: if "that feature we like" is not in the game it does not make the game arcadish. A real contact visibility is still seriously missing, but IL2 is not "arcade" to me; its still far from an arcade game.

If you really want a perfect simulator go marry a wealthy widow and raise your "personal software house" who has not to think about "profit"

Edited October 8, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Mac_Messer]

If you really want a perfect simulator go marry a wealthy widow and raise your "personal software house" who has not to think about "profit"

Yes, surely the best point made in this thread to date.

If no one cares about sim-like features then why make a sim anyways.

[ST_ami7b5]

Really high time the testing would start...

[6S.Manu]

Yes, surely the best point made in this thread to date.

If no one cares about sim-like features then why make a sim anyways.

 

It would be nice to have good graphic, perfect models and skins, realistic FM, DM, FX, detailed procedures ect in all the same game. But how much time/money would this "project" require?

Edited October 8, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[FlatSpinMan]

Where does this idea come from that anybody needs to be clicking buttons in a dogfight? let alone hundreds of them, the idea of the click pit is simply to give control over every aspect of an accurate and well modelled aircraft, there will be times out of combat where someone might just want to fly the aircraft and enjoy understanding/learning the functions of the various systems, even if it is something simple like turning on the recognition lights, the ability to immerse yourself in these things is very much a plus in my opinion.

 

having click pits does not prevent the user who wishes to simplify things from enjoying the basic combat experience, so why are people so hostile to the idea?

I guess from the idea that you have to control it using the mouse all the time. Presumably you can in fact assign keys to the functions, too. That would seem more manageable.

[DocSnyder]

What part of "First off, there are keyboard shortcuts for that" did you not understand?

 

Ok. So you gave us that "hint" - at the same time you state that anyone who uses keyboard shortcuts is related to something you call "arcade crowd". What point of you insulting litteraly everyone didn't you get?

 

 

having click pits does not prevent the user who wishes to simplify things from enjoying the basic combat experience, so why are people so hostile to the idea?

 

I don't see anyone being hostile towards that idea or concept. As I mentioned before clickable cockpits indeed are a nice addon to have - but not a "must-have" and definitely don't seperate the so called "arcade crowd" from simmers, like "Mac_Messer" is argueing about - which is not only arrogant but kinda ... well ... stupid as well.

Though I repeat myself: Click pits give us a grade of detail realism. They are not really useful nor can they simulate an intuitive plane control. You don't put your mouse onto that virtual control stick of your 109 and drag/move it by clicking ... do you? (I know, a dumb example ... but that's exactly the point).

Edited October 8, 2013 by DocSnyder

[Mac_Messer]

Ok. So you gave us that "hint" - at the same time you state that anyone who uses keyboard shortcuts is related to something you call "arcade crowd". What point of you insulting litteraly everyone didn't you get?

Not really. You see, down on the ground and in cruise flight you may use the clickpits by mouse for your simmer`s enjoyment. When it gets hot, you have a set of assigned buttons and button configurations that you can use almost instinctively after some practice. That is what I do and I don`t consider myself an arcade player. Hence, there is no insult you speak of.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Mac_Messer

[DD_bongodriver]

I guess from the idea that you have to control it using the mouse all the time. Presumably you can in fact assign keys to the functions, too. That would seem more manageable.

 

 

My question is actually what are these apparent hundreds of buttons that need pressing during combat, people seem to be suggesting that clickable pits will in some way encumber them with unreasonable workloads during combat, but I don't understand what extra workload is actually required during combat? nobody is going to be tweaking ancillary controls during combat.

 

Given that not everyone is going to have triple touch screen monitors or however many, and even less people will have a bespoke recreation of a cockpit for each aircraft type modelled but every one must have a keyboard and mouse so what is the problem with using a mouse to operate clickable pits? where does the notion come from that anyone is arguing mouse clicks are true to life?

Edited October 8, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

We can argue the cons and pros with clickable cockpits "in absurdum" but the fact remiains; In the restricted development scope for BoS, - at least now - do the developemt team really have the time to adress this? I think not, maybe in the future.

I would like to hear though from someone on the team discuss  - maybe in a thread, maybe in a stream - how much more time it would demand in order to develop that new interface into the engine, and consistently implement it in all cockpits.  Do it properly or don't do it at all I'd say.

[76SQN-FatherTed]

 

 

I have no problem with the simulators having the option to turn off the realism settings, I just don't want a simulator that has none to begin with.

 

This isn't a competition to see who can be most "realistic" with their settings.  I think part of the point here is:  are HOTAS/ clikpits actually more "realistic" than HOTAS/keyboard?

[SKG51_robtek]

This isn't a competition to see who can be most "realistic" with their settings.  I think part of the point here is:  are HOTAS/ clikpits actually more "realistic" than HOTAS/keyboard?

Thats a no brainer, imo.

One prefers clickpit for non-time-critical/secondary controls, the other wouldn't use a clickpit if it was the only option.

It's a matter of taste.

[DD_bongodriver]

This isn't a competition to see who can be most "realistic" with their settings.  I think part of the point here is:  are HOTAS/ clikpits actually more "realistic" than HOTAS/keyboard?

 

Yet again, my point is being missed entirely, neither are realistic compared to real life, I say click pits are 'more' realistic because you are interacting directly with the virtual cockpit and are actually looking at the specific controls/instruments/knobs/dials/switches you want to operate as opposed to operating a querty keyboard, I will say again this has nothing to do with combat, any functions likely needed during combat will intuitively be mapped to HOTAS, but for the more 'mundane' operation of aircraft systems during times without action.

I know BoS will not have click pits, it may have them at some point in the future.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Wouldn't mind a clickpit using my kinect How cool would that be.

[DD_bongodriver]

if the oculus rift really takes hold then click pits will have to be considered.

[JG4Helofly]

As we can see here, everybody has his idea of realism. That's because IL2, Clod, ... are games and not simulators. For some it's about the immersion and the story, for some others it's about dogfighting etc.

I respect every opinion.

For me it's about realistic FM, DM and CEM. I don't care about a realistic start sequence. Just having to push the "I" button is enough for me. The important point is that I have control over important systems like radiator controls, mixture, supercharger etc. as long as it's important for engine management, because it's part of the challenge to get the skills that will enable you to get the best out of the airplane and prevent it from breaking down.

But this discussion about realism seems a bit strange when it comes to a WW2 game, because the complexity of the aircrafts of this time periode is very limited. Most planes have automatic controles over prop pitch, radiator flaps etc. I would have suspected to see this in the DCS forum.

[FuriousMeow]

So instead of studying the main switches and knobs, figuring out what does what, you`d rather push 2, max 3 buttons to fly rightaway. It is a real loss when a group of people put in so much of their work and talent into modelling it accurately, only to be completely ignored by the arcade crowd.

 

See, this is nonsense Bongodriver. You should learn the difference between illustrating the tedium of utilizing a mouse to operate switches than actually clicking keys that replicate actually clicking buttons and switches.

 

I never once said anything about one or two buttons, but since I see the ridiculousness in the mouse clicking buttons in a cockpit I must be arcadey. I have DCS and that miserable abortion CloD, and the mouse is backwards in realism to clicking keys that actually replicate clicking buttons without having to hunt and find them on the cockpit while staring intently at the dash when in reality just a quick glance to locate the button/knob/levers is all that is needed.

 

You guys have fun with your elitist mouse clicking tedious nonsense. I'll replicate clicking buttons with clicking keys and switches on my HOTAS.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Indeed Helofly, this (...) realistic FM, DM and CEM (...) is the base and essence on a air combat simulator, especially in the propeller era simulators.

[SKG51_robtek]

See, this is nonsense Bongodriver. You should learn the difference between illustrating the tedium of utilizing a mouse to operate switches than actually clicking keys that replicate actually clicking buttons and switches.

 

I never once said anything about one or two buttons, but since I see the ridiculousness in the mouse clicking buttons in a cockpit I must be arcadey. I have DCS and that miserable abortion CloD, and the mouse is backwards in realism to clicking keys that actually replicate clicking buttons without having to hunt and find them on the cockpit while staring intently at the dash when in reality just a quick glance to locate the button/knob/levers is all that is needed.

 

You guys have fun with your elitist mouse clicking tedious nonsense. I'll replicate clicking buttons with clicking keys and switches on my HOTAS.

The last sentence is plain dumb!!!

Never was implemented either or!

Clickpit is always a ADDITIONAL option to 'regular' controls.

That sentence just shows your tunnelvision, either agains Bongodriver or Clickpits, maybe both.

[RoteDreizehn]

I fully agree with all Posts of  "DD_Bongodriver" and "Robtek" !!!!

 

In my opinion realism and immersion is a one of the important things in a Simulator. Such as hopefully in BOS.

I love DCS and it´s not difficult to learn, if the Player is interested in Simulators. Can´t understand about

Problems with learn curve as generell.

 

For each one who dont want to press Buttons, buy Controllers with real switches. 

 

No flaming to anyone !!! Calm down

Edited October 8, 2013 by triton

[6S.Manu]

As we can see here, everybody has his idea of realism. That's because IL2, Clod, ... are games and not simulators. For some it's about the immersion and the story, for some others it's about dogfighting etc.

I respect every opinion.

For me it's about realistic FM, DM and CEM. I don't care about a realistic start sequence. Just having to push the "I" button is enough for me. The important point is that I have control over important systems like radiator controls, mixture, supercharger etc. as long as it's important for engine management, because it's part of the challenge to get the skills that will enable you to get the best out of the airplane and prevent it from breaking down.

But this discussion about realism seems a bit strange when it comes to a WW2 game, because the complexity of the aircrafts of this time periode is very limited. Most planes have automatic controles over prop pitch, radiator flaps etc. I would have suspected to see this in the DCS forum.

This.

[DD_bongodriver]

See, this is nonsense Bongodriver. You should learn the difference between illustrating the tedium of utilizing a mouse to operate switches than actually clicking keys that replicate actually clicking buttons and switches.

 

I never once said anything about one or two buttons, but since I see the ridiculousness in the mouse clicking buttons in a cockpit I must be arcadey. I have DCS and that miserable abortion CloD, and the mouse is backwards in realism to clicking keys that actually replicate clicking buttons without having to hunt and find them on the cockpit while staring intently at the dash when in reality just a quick glance to locate the button/knob/levers is all that is needed.

 

You guys have fun with your elitist mouse clicking tedious nonsense. I'll replicate clicking buttons with clicking keys and switches on my HOTAS.

 

 

Well obviously being an 'elitist' gives one a much calmer disposition, sorry if it upsets you that some of us don't have the experiences you describe with click pits.

[Scarecrow]

^+1

I play DCS and clickable pits are great for the stuff you never need during combat or outside of the statup procedure and the stuff you need in flight goes on HOTAS or keys.

I don't know how complex the P51 is compared to other aircraft of the period but it took about five minutes to learn the coldstart.

Good idea about having an "Autostart" feature as its called in DCS and it's exactly what most DCS servers run so swicth geeks like me can click our switches and fiddle with our knobs while others can just Autostart plane and go, everybody is happy.

Another benefit of clickable pits is you don't need to remember the keystroke for annoying stuff like the fuel valve, primer, pitot heat, parking brake, batteries, inverter etc.

 

The most important part is that BOS appeals to as wide an audience as possible. I'm sure the devs will be trying to pull the War Thunder crowd in, the idea of the project is to make as much money as possible.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Scarecrow

[Mmaruda]

Using the mouse to do stuff in the cockpit obviously does not refect what the pilot does in RL. It does however, give you the opportunity to learn the cockpit of a real plane. So that when you get into a Ka-50, you could at least start the engine thanks to all those hours in Black Shark. That is the illusion study sims give us - that we actually know how to fly the real thing (or at least what all the buttons do).

 

That said, I don't think we need clickable pits in BoS or any future iteration of the sim. There is tons of things that the devs time and resources could be spent on to make the game better. To me clickpits is something I asociate with modern jet planes and simulations focused on a single machine. With WWII planes it's about combat and a realistic environment for that combat. While it's cool to actually be able to learn how the real thing operates, it's not really needed here. I would rather the devs went to further develop theatres and grow the game so that everyone could find their favourite plane/map here at some point in the future.

 

Hitting that sweet spot between realism and game is really the key to success. If anyone wants to actually learn to properly operate the plane, there are other simulations that you can go for.

 

I play a good amount of DCS and enjoy it very much. It's not as much about the learning curve, but time. I joined a Falcom BMS squadron about six months ago. We also play other stuff like Arma 3 and Condor and obviously many people will jump into BoS when it's here. So there is the job, there is the ocasional DCS, there is Falcon (which may not be that complicated, but employing this thing as an effective weapon... man it's tough) and there are other games, and IL-2 which I love for other reasons. This does not really leave much time to get to grips with another hyper-realistic simulator. I did not buy the new Mi-8 thing yet beacuse of this - I have no time to dedicate on learning it.

 

People say that WWII planes are not that complicated so it would not be hard to learn and they are right. But learning to operate all that in combat with the limited controls we have (mouse + TrackIR) is a different story.

[SKG51_robtek]

Using the mouse to do stuff in the cockpit obviously does not refect what the pilot does in RL. It does however, give you the opportunity to learn the cockpit of a real plane. So that when you get into a Ka-50, you could at least start the engine thanks to all those hours in Black Shark. That is the illusion study sims give us - that we actually know how to fly the real thing (or at least what all the buttons do).

 

That said, I don't think we need clickable pits in BoS or any future iteration of the sim. There is tons of things that the devs time and resources could be spent on to make the game better. To me clickpits is something I asociate with modern jet planes and simulations focused on a single machine. With WWII planes it's about combat and a realistic environment for that combat. While it's cool to actually be able to learn how the real thing operates, it's not really needed here. I would rather the devs went to further develop theatres and grow the game so that everyone could find their favourite plane/map here at some point in the future.

 

Hitting that sweet spot between realism and game is really the key to success. If anyone wants to actually learn to properly operate the plane, there are other simulations that you can go for.

 

I play a good amount of DCS and enjoy it very much. It's not as much about the learning curve, but time. I joined a Falcom BMS squadron about six months ago. We also play other stuff like Arma 3 and Condor and obviously many people will jump into BoS when it's here. So there is the job, there is the ocasional DCS, there is Falcon (which may not be that complicated, but employing this thing as an effective weapon... man it's tough) and there are other games, and IL-2 which I love for other reasons. This does not really leave much time to get to grips with another hyper-realistic simulator. I did not buy the new Mi-8 thing yet beacuse of this - I have no time to dedicate on learning it.

 

People say that WWII planes are not that complicated so it would not be hard to learn and they are right. But learning to operate all that in combat with the limited controls we have (mouse + TrackIR) is a different story.

Please don't forget that there are not only itsy bitsy tiny fighters with a handful of controls. :biggrin:

There are also planes that reqire a lot more key-bindings for the flight management, Ju88, He111, Pe2 etc.

For those, where the flight without enemy contact is a mission by itself, a clickable Cockpit eases the learning courve a lot.

IMO

[FuriousMeow]

The last sentence is plain dumb!!!

Never was implemented either or!

Clickpit is always a ADDITIONAL option to 'regular' controls.

That sentence just shows your tunnelvision, either agains Bongodriver or Clickpits, maybe both.

 

Really, plain dumb how? When you click a key, it's akin to clicking a button or toggle. Reaching for a mouse to navigate across the screen while staring at the button or toggle is like reaching for another object to manipulate the toggle or button. I've never used a back scratcher to operate everything around me, have you? I'd say your lust for using a mouse to click a switch has blinded you to the reality that clicking a key is like clicking a switch.

Well obviously being an 'elitist' gives one a much calmer disposition, sorry if it upsets you that some of us don't have the experiences you describe with click pits.

 

There's nothing in my posts that are antongistic, melodramatic or even insulting. Your's, on the other hand...

 

 

you seem to be entirely missing the point that a combat/flight simulator encompasses much more than whizzing around the sky going 'pew pew pew', some of us....particularly those that fly in real life still want to experience  more than that.

 

Why are you even arguing? I don't care if you want to use a gamepad or turn off realism, I just want to be able to operate the simulation in whatever way I feel comfortable and am not asking for it to be mandatory for people like you.

 

Calmer indeed.

Edited October 8, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[SKG51_robtek]

Really, plain dumb how? When you click a key, it's akin to clicking a button or toggle. Reaching for a mouse to navigate across the screen while staring at the button or toggle is like reaching for another object to manipulate the toggle or button. I've never used a back scratcher to operate everything around me, have you? I'd say your lust for using a mouse to click a switch has blinded you to the reality that clicking a key is like clicking a switch.

 

There's nothing in my posts that are antongistic, melodramatic or even insulting. Your's, on the other hand...

 

 

Calmer indeed.

Maybe just read my last post.

[SCG_Neun]

Forums aren't the best place for making a point, and I'd bet money that every single one of us here could sit down at a table over a beer, or a cup of java, and have a really interesting discussion about the pros and cons of this control setup and that one without the least bit of animosity towards one another.  I mean heck, we've got years of experience flying this sim and that one.  Can't we just agree, to disagree on some of our more personal choices and appreciate the input that everyone has here.  I learn all kinds of stuff from you guys all the time, especially about the technical stuff, which I don't have a clue about.  I'm not talking about a "group hug" but just treating one another as friends who share a passion for history, airplanes and the like.