What is realism? Does it kill simulators?

[dkoor]

Yes. Excessive realism kills it for a lot of people.

Aye.

It kills it totally for me personally because. I KNOW that it does't have anything to do with real flying in combat situations.

 

Who needs to press hundred buttons every mission?

How in world is that realistic?

It's hard and that's all it is.

 

Sometimes it seems to me as there is some kind of masculine masochystic exclussive way that some people tend to vote for...

 

But in the end it wont really matter...

Whether you realistically press ctrl-something to close your canopy, manage your mix & prop pitch every few seconds to hit the ideal numbers etc. It will still boil down to how you fly and shoot as this is what is this all about in the first place.

 

So no, I personally don't see how having to press extra 50 buttons in this sim (as opposed to iL-2 or RoF) will be more immersive. It will be only more PitA. Some things around engine management will surely be improved and in this light we need to control our engine in a more demanding way but I personally will be uttery disappointed if it really boils down to pressing that much more buttons.

 

Clickable cockpit?

God forbid if it ever had any importance in combat flight sim... that is only good for sightseeing tourist missions.

 

Please give me painfully realistic FM and DM and nicely balanced CEM (I know you guys know how to do it I've seen your work :D ) and I'll be mucho happy.

Ps. I think that among others, HansHansen (OP) really put it in excellent way. I agree 100% .

Nice topic BTW.

[IonicRipper]

I use to fly as realistically as the game allowed but I was just getting frustrated. Lately, I've been flying sims with full system realism but with a more forgivable gameplay. It just makes it more fun and enjoyable.

[SGCstavka]

For me, realism/immersion or whatever you want to call, is if it have modelled the systems correctly and with fidelity as also balistics and flight model. For example i would like that BoS have features like if i managed the engine wrong i have problems. I hate fake switches, buttons and gauges, with fake ones we already have many other tittles. But i also agree that some things needs to be selectable to give pleasure not only to veteran and more hardcore pilots that wants full realism of procedures but also to the more casual/arcade pilots. That options also must be selectable on server side when online sessions. This kind of things can be like Engine damage (not from crash or enemy fire) On/Off, Automixture On/Off, etc .....

 

About clickable cockpit vs non clickable cockpit, i realy not like and feel not practical when you only have only mouse clicable cockpit or only keyboard oriented cockpit. My experience in many simulators from civil to military, from arcade to more complex ones, i see that the best option is when you have both. When you have a full mouse clickable cockpit with all cockpit buttons with a keyboard key associated. When you only have one side is not good.

 

Only mouse clickable you not have hands enough when in the hot of a dogfight using HOTAS for example need to use the mouse for click in a button on the cockpit because that button not have a key associated. Is much more fast to immediately click on a known key on keyboard. As also it gives the opportunity to configurate any key to a button on your joystick or a custom made home cockpit.

But please don't make the mistake of having only keyboard controlled cockpit because real pilots as also many of virtual ones study well the layout of the cockpit, they not study hundreds of key combinations. I hate the need to study a complex key combination to press a button that i see in my front and could easily and fast go there with my mouse. For example when on the ground with a cold start procedures in full realism its much more immersive and realistic going with the mouse and click and press the multiple switches using the virtual cockpit knowning the real positions of them while watching them, than pressing dozens of key combinations in a row while watching the front glass shield.that are completely not real. Not to mention that some features are more real and intuitive knowing that you need to press this button up or down here in the cockpit than put in your brain that you need to press ctrl+shift+l for turn on and ctrl+alt+l for turn off that specific button.

 

The best is having both (full mouse clickable cockpit + all cockpit buttons with keys associated) gives the opportunities to configurate joysticks, home made cockpits, use easy while in dogfight and do procedures more immersive while in cruise flights or when on ground, or even the possibility to do something when you know where is the button on the cockpit but you don't yet know the key combination of it. Is not entirely realistic not having a clickable mouse cockpit because will force you more to study hundreds of crazy keys more than study the real placement of them in cockpit as real pilots.

 

For keys, of course different aircrafts different buttons and levers, but please don't do default association of different keys for exactly the same funtion in different aircrafts. Like shift+F open flaps in aircraft X and ctrl+F to open flaps in aircraft Y.

 

Sorry my english grammar, its not my native language.

[SGCstavka]

Aye.

It kills it totally for me personally because. I KNOW that it does't have anything to do with real flying in combat situations.

 

Who needs to press hundred buttons every mission?

How in world is that realistic?

It's hard and that's all it is.

 

Sometimes it seems to me as there is some kind of masculine masochystic exclussive way that some people tend to vote for...

 

But in the end it wont really matter...

Whether you realistically press ctrl-something to close your canopy, manage your mix & prop pitch every few seconds to hit the ideal numbers etc. It will still boil down to how you fly and shoot as this is what is this all about in the first place.

 

So no, I personally don't see how having to press extra 50 buttons in this sim (as opposed to iL-2 or RoF) will be more immersive. It will be only more PitA. Some things around engine management will surely be improved and in this light we need to control our engine in a more demanding way but I personally will be uttery disappointed if it really boils down to pressing that much more buttons.

 

Clickable cockpit?

God forbid if it ever had any importance in combat flight sim... that is only good for sightseeing tourist missions.

 

Please give me painfully realistic FM and DM and nicely balanced CEM (I know you guys know how to do it I've seen your work :D ) and I'll be mucho happy.

Ps. I think that among others, HansHansen (OP) really put it in excellent way. I agree 100% .

Nice topic BTW.

without the option of ALSO having a clickable cockpit is for masochysts that loves to fill the brain with flood of key combinations. For example i realy would like to see someone to do an entire mission from cold start, combat and landing home in the dcs a10 without using the mouse and doing all real procedures in full realism settings.

 

What kill a game/simulator is only having full realism or only full arcade. The best is having the options to choose gradualy what you want as i explain in my last post.

 

About what you wrote:

Who needs to press hundred buttons every mission?

How in world is that realistic?

It's hard and that's all it is.

 

Its the life of a combat pilot, its not a arcade shooter that you only need a 2 axis joystick and 1 button to fire. In real life even in intensive combat they need to never forget engine management and many others aspects (if they not do it, probably not return home). Its why combat pilots its not a matter of if wants or not, its a matter of if can be or not. Only goes the ones that have the skills and brain to do everything that is require. For example in real life even exist aircraft that for only putting landing gears up they need to select up, pump the hydraulic lever many times then select landing gear selector to neutral. Even the most modern fighters with all the computers and technologies to reduce pilots workload is not a joystick and 2 buttons (turn on/off and fire trigger).

If an aircraft have 200 buttons in real life is because they need it to do everything that it is supposed to do in all realistic procedures not only for the standard ones as also for the emergency ones.

Edited October 5, 2013 by KNBstavka

[silent_one]

I agree with the original poster entirely. 

For me clickable cockpits not a big issue. My favorite game for a very long time was Falcon 4. But I think DCS has gone far to far now with the likes of A10c.  When a game becomes more about remembering a keypress combination than your combat maneuvering you have lot me.  Is that tms up long and dms right short? I have to fly with a cheat sheet in front of me just to make an attack. I have a Warthog and a Cougar. To be honest  though I enjoyed F4 more when I just had MS sidewinder. When it was just about the fighting and not about the button management.

 

The argument that " but a real pilot has to do these things" Well so what!  A real pilot has to go to pilot school and rigorously trains every day. He has teachers and is immersed in the subject. Are we supposed to give up our lives and train for hundreds of hours so we can be competent in a game? This is supposed to be entertainment. For me MSFS isnt. 

 

IN a prop sim. I hear folk going on about scalability . and thats fine.  Personally I think intuitive items of plane management should be automated. It is however a problem when you cant find a server that isnt locked as 'full real"Theres no scalability in a locked server. Here for 10 mins you play " lets navigate"  and you often cant find a enemy. When you do theres a one minute fight and you may restart back at base with the " lets navigate."  Its simply not fun. I want to be playing 10 mins fighting . I minute plane management. Not the other way around.  I wont be buying DCS WW2.

You might say " join another server "  well in the southern hemisphere and my time zone there arnt that many servers.

 

If you look to SIM HQ as an example of our hobby. It was the premier sight  for we simmers. There was fresh news every day. It was great. Look at the newsboard now. The only way to keep that page full is to have news weeks old on it.

Sims are dying and for me " full real " is killing it. 

Edited October 5, 2013 by silent_one

[Shadylurker]

I agree with the original poster entirely. 

For me clickable cockpits not a big issue. My favorite game for a very long time was Falcon 4. But I think DCS has gone far to far now with the likes of A10c.  When a game becomes more about remembering a keypress combination than your combat maneuvering you have lot me.  Is that tms up long and dms right short? I have to fly with a cheat sheet in front of me just to make an attack. I have a Warthog and a Cougar. To be honest  though I enjoyed F4 more when I just had MS sidewinder. When it was just about the fighting and not about the button management.

 

The argument that " but a real pilot has to do these things" Well so what!  A real pilot has to go to pilot school and rigorously trains every day. He has teachers and is immersed in the subject. Are we supposed to give up our lives and train for hundreds of hours so we can be competent in a game? This is supposed to be entertainment. For me MSFS isnt. 

 

IN a prop sim. I hear folk going on about scalability . and thats fine.  Personally I think intuitive items of plane management should be automated. It is however a problem when you cant find a server that isnt locked as 'full real"Theres no scalability in a locked server. Here for 10 mins you play " lets navigate"  and you often cant find a enemy. When you do theres a one minute fight and you may restart back at base with the " lets navigate."  Its simply not fun. I want to be playing 10 mins fighting . I minute plane management. Not the other way around.  I wont be buying DCS WW2.

You might say " join another server "  well in the southern hemisphere and my time zone there arnt that many servers.

 

If you look to SIM HQ as an example of our hobby. It was the premier sight  for we simmers. There was fresh news every day. It was great. Look at the newsboard now. The only way to keep that page full is to have news weeks old on it.

Sims are dying and for me " full real " is killing it. 

 

 

But in Reality DCS A10C is really easy after you learn it.  I have said this once,  It seems confusing as reading greek then it just snaps into place, after you get the basic understanding of what the hotas commands do.

 

I mean they don't purposely make an attack aircraft difficult to use IRL, actually the exact opposite.  It is just a different way of thinking, almost like comparing mathmatics and art.  once you learn the formula it's the same every time.  But if you are looking at it subjectively every time you are going to struggle every time.

 

It's all about scale though, If I want to flip switches (or key presses) let me, or if I want to automate the start let me do that.  Now if for example A10c Required Key maps for everything that would be a no go.  But in a game like Il2 BOS key presses are ok because there aren't a lot of systems to keep track of.

 

EDIT: Complex engine management is a must imo  It's part of the fun.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Shadylurker

[dkoor]

without the option of ALSO having a clickable cockpit is for masochysts that loves to fill the brain with flood of key combinations. For example i realy would like to see someone to do an entire mission from cold start, combat and landing home in the dcs a10 without using the mouse and doing all real procedures in full realism settings.

 

What kill a game/simulator is only having full realism or only full arcade. The best is having the options to choose gradualy what you want as i explain in my last post.

 

About what you wrote:

Who needs to press hundred buttons every mission?

How in world is that realistic?

It's hard and that's all it is.

 

Its the life of a combat pilot, its not a arcade shooter that you only need a 2 axis joystick and 1 button to fire. In real life even in intensive combat they need to never forget engine management and many others aspects (if they not do it, probably not return home). Its why combat pilots its not a matter of if wants or not, its a matter of if can be or not. Only goes the ones that have the skills and brain to do everything that is require. For example in real life even exist aircraft that for only putting landing gears up they need to select up, pump the hydraulic lever many times then select landing gear selector to neutral. Even the most modern fighters with all the computers and technologies to reduce pilots workload is not a joystick and 2 buttons (turn on/off and fire trigger).

If an aircraft have 200 buttons in real life is because they need it to do everything that it is supposed to do in all realistic procedures not only for the standard ones as also for the emergency ones.

Please don't start about clickable cockpit.

I wouldn't even try to call it anything but downright stupid as it can be for combat simulator.

You try to simulate something yet every time when you need to click on something you need to transfer your FOV to the panel in the middle of combat.

Try to do an Immelman evading E/A's fire while looking at your panels & instruments. Even touch screen would be silly at current level of technology.

Does this point of mine need further explanations?

 

About keys, keyboards etc. so now we are at extreme. One key, one action, right?

So we will only have realism simulator if we have key for every possible function and action in aircraft.

Is that what it takes?

 

I don't really think I need to explain why I think that is also a stupid idea, but... I'll have a quick try... if I want to historically clear my windshield from the inside, will I get a key combo to action a nice duster?

[SKG51_robtek]

Please don't start about clickable cockpit.

I wouldn't even try to call it anything but downright stupid as it can be for combat simulator.

You try to simulate something yet every time when you need to click on something you need to transfer your FOV to the panel in the middle of combat.

Try to do an Immelman evading E/A's fire while looking at your panels & instruments. Even touch screen would be silly at current level of technology.

Does this point of mine need further explanations?

 

About keys, keyboards etc. so now we are at extreme. One key, one action, right?

So we will only have realism simulator if we have key for every possible function and action in aircraft.

Is that what it takes?

 

I don't really think I need to explain why I think that is also a stupid idea, but... I'll have a quick try... if I want to historically clear my windshield from the inside, will I get a key combo to action a nice duster?

Please stop to act like it is either or!

A 'Clickpit' is always additional, so there is really no reason to flame it, if the developer is willing to spend the time to include it.

Also the actual combat time during a flight is usually neglible in relation to the complete flight time, so there is enough time to fiddle with controls to prepare the plane for the fight.

Those who reduce a cfs to the combat part might be better off with a more arcadish product.

Not everything has to be simulated, but one should have a basic workload just to fly the plane.

IMO, of course.

[Shadylurker]

I shouldn't have to raise or lower my gear and flaps.

[6S.Manu]

Wow guys, try to not be so extremist... a CFS with accurare FM and DM is still a good "not arcadish" product... I'm happy with RoF CEM.

On the other hand I would like that ships and tanks could try to evade my attacks and of course a realtime communication with the ground forces if I have to provide support to them. My priority is on these aspects.

[SCG_Neun]

Wow guys, try to not be so extremist... a CFS with accurare FM and DM is still a good "not arcadish" product... I'm happy with RoF CEM.

 

On the other hand I would like that ships and tanks could try to evade my attacks and of course a realtime communication with the ground forces if I have to provide support to them. My priority is on these aspects.

 

 

I'd also like to see the possibility of having bailed out in enemy territory but within a certain radius to friendly units, the possibility of evading capture and being returned to your unit.

[II./JG27_Rich]

I'd also like to see the possibility of having bailed out in enemy territory but within a certain radius to friendly units, the possibility of evading capture and being returned to your unit.

Come get you in a kublewagen

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCZ6RKoln04

Edited October 5, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[SCG_Neun]

Come get you in a kublewagen

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCZ6RKoln04

Wow, I love the spare jerry can and the blackout rear light system which helped tell distance from the rear of the vehicle.....

[II./JG27_Rich]

Wow, I love the spare jerry can and the blackout rear light system which helped tell distance from the rear of the vehicle.....

It is a cool little thing isn't it. There is a guy in my home town who has an old BMW side-car motorcycle painted in North African desert camouflage. He bombs around town in it with his German Shepard in the side-car

[DD_bongodriver]

Sorry to bring this one crashing back on topic, the OP's question sounds odd to me.

 

How can realism kill simulation? by definition it is the single most important aspect, without realism it is a game, so the real question is.....is peoples desire for for gameplay killing simulation? it takes us back to debates over 'games' like War Thunder vs 'simulations' like the DCS series, a vast chasm of difference between them and sitting somewhere in the middle slightly on the simulator side is BoS, technically War Thunder should be a 'gamers' wet dream and gives little reason for migration over to the 'dark side' of simulation, yet here they come, BoS may just be achieving an almost impossible dream, waking people from console induced comas......will they turn back or go on and, god forbid, actually attempt to take charge of something like a press-able button to operate something that doesn't fire guns or drop bombs?

[SKG51_robtek]

 

Sorry to bring this one crashing back on topic, the OP's question sounds odd to me.

 

How can realism kill simulation? by definition it is the single most important aspect, without realism it is a game, so the real question is.....is peoples desire for for gameplay killing simulation? it takes us back to debates over 'games' like War Thunder vs 'simulations' like the DCS series, a vast chasm of difference between them and sitting somewhere in the middle slightly on the simulator side is BoS, technically War Thunder should be a 'gamers' wet dream and gives little reason for migration over to the 'dark side' of simulation, yet here they come, BoS may just be achieving an almost impossible dream, waking people from console induced comas......will they turn back or go on and, god forbid, actually attempt to take charge of something like a press-able button to operate something that doesn't fire guns or drop bombs?

 

I'll drink to that!

[DD_bongodriver]

Prost!

[leitmotiv]

 

Sorry to bring this one crashing back on topic, the OP's question sounds odd to me.

 

How can realism kill simulation? by definition it is the single most important aspect, without realism it is a game, so the real question is.....is peoples desire for for gameplay killing simulation? it takes us back to debates over 'games' like War Thunder vs 'simulations' like the DCS series, a vast chasm of difference between them and sitting somewhere in the middle slightly on the simulator side is BoS, technically War Thunder should be a 'gamers' wet dream and gives little reason for migration over to the 'dark side' of simulation, yet here they come, BoS may just be achieving an almost impossible dream, waking people from console induced comas......will they turn back or go on and, god forbid, actually attempt to take charge of something like a press-able button to operate something that doesn't fire guns or drop bombs?

 

 

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I think over the last 15 years the Gap between realism and immersion has widened, sure sims are vastly more realistic but for the most part they have become less about immersion.

 

How and why.

 

Sims seem more about 'How to use the aircraft' and less 'why should i fly and fight in this aircraft'

 

Sure its fun to learn all about the knobs and buttons and to pretend to be a new pilot in WW2, learning his aircraft, but i also want to pretend that im actually in WW2 and i know how to fly and i want to feel im in a war.

 

Developers need to bring the two closer together.

[SCG_Neun]

 

Sorry to bring this one crashing back on topic, the OP's question sounds odd to me.

 

How can realism kill simulation? by definition it is the single most important aspect, without realism it is a game, so the real question is.....is peoples desire for for gameplay killing simulation? it takes us back to debates over 'games' like War Thunder vs 'simulations' like the DCS series, a vast chasm of difference between them and sitting somewhere in the middle slightly on the simulator side is BoS, technically War Thunder should be a 'gamers' wet dream and gives little reason for migration over to the 'dark side' of simulation, yet here they come, BoS may just be achieving an almost impossible dream, waking people from console induced comas......will they turn back or go on and, god forbid, actually attempt to take charge of something like a press-able button to operate something that doesn't fire guns or drop bombs?

 

+1

[SKG51_robtek]

One thing the IL2 series always was missing was the background story.

It was always concentrated on the technical aspect of the simulation and it worked that good, that the missing storyline was not so important.

Now the technical leaps aren't that big anymore, the improvements are coming to refinements.

Now a good storyline with a single player campaign, i.e. starting with flight school (as trainers are missing, advanced fighter training) would make the package complete.

It would also help quite a few people to get aquainted with the more complex plane management and handling.

My 2 cents.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I shouldn't have to raise or lower my gear and flaps.

In simulation, as in real life, these functions are purely optional, though I would tend to follow the manufactures recommendations most of the time!    

[Furio]

I don’t like clickable cockpit, period, but I’m fine with the option of having them for people who have different tastes. But, in my opinion, the real point is elsewhere.

To have a realistic trim, for example, you should have a realistic force feedback stick, regardless if the command is clickable, or assigned to a keystroke, or a slider or whatever, because RL trim has an immediate effect on stick force, and a delayed effect on airspeed.

What I would like from a flap command would be the proper aircraft response to flap extension, usually a nose-down trim change for a steeper landing approach.

The word “realism” should be always regarded with some suspicion. For example, I find absolutely reasonable to reduce ground-looping tendencies, because in real life you keep your tail wheel geared plane on track using seat of the pants feelings and peripheral vision, both things eminently lacking in a computer. For the same reason, I gladly accept a reduced – or non-existent – adverse yaw.

 

On top of that, I agree with Manu.

 

 

On the other hand I would like that ships and tanks could try to evade my attacks and of course a realtime communication with the ground forces if I have to provide support to them. My priority is on these aspects.

 

 

 

Generally speaking, I think that a sim is “realistic” when a real life pilot can use it with the least possible adjustment. Having learned to fly first in a real plane, I had to adjust a lot to “fly” good old Il2, and hope to have less differences in BoS.

[DD_bongodriver]

Generally speaking, I think that a sim is “realistic” when a real life pilot can use it with the least possible adjustment. Having learned to fly first in a real plane, I had to adjust a lot to “fly” good old Il2, and hope to have less differences in BoS.

 

Same for me with regards to old IL2, Cod and DCS were a natural fit for me.

[76SQN-FatherTed]

I think this is a more subtle issue than "arcade v sim"  or "clickpit v keyboard".  I think that what happens sometimes when a game strives for realism it can make things less realistic, because of the limitations of the format.  On the face of it, having a clickable cockpit sounds as though it should be more realistic than using the keyboard.  However, using TIR to look down and then hovering a mouse pointer over the relevant place is less like being in an actual cockpit with knobs, wheels, switches and levers than glancing at a keyboard and using your hand(s) to operate it.

 

All computer games are obviously a con-job on your senses.  One of the skills in designing them is to realize that sometimes a direct route to realism will not necessarily result in the most realistic experience for the player.

 

Incidentally, I made myself a little control box with sliders and buttons.  I made it really for practical purposes, not being able to find a left-handed HOTAS system, but using it is quite immersive.

[leitmotiv]

Its basically same having not clicable cocpit and press some combo of keys to activate somthing or moving mouse in clicable cocpit, nither its closer to real thing afcorse.

Main difference with having clickable cockpit and considerng it better for sim like games is in that its makes you learn the knobs and switches in that realisticly modeled airplane like real pilot of that type would learn them and you know what switch, knob, leaver you move to do what and its positions in airplane.

With just presing the keyboard keys or combos of them you lear just that, i need to press that key to do this, it dosent help you to learn where is the correct leaver or switch or knob for it, as for gear i need to press G, for battery on i pres ctrl+B and so on one dont need to know their lever or switch position in diferant  types of airplanes like he would need to know in clicable cocpit... its good for games, in sims you should wont to know your airplane more ditailed and clicable cocpits give you just that.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Yaklover

[76SQN-FatherTed]

Its basically same having not clicable cocpit and press some combo of keys to activate somthing or moving mouse in clicable cocpit, nither its closer to real thing afcorse.

Main difference with having clickable cockpit and considerng it better for sim like games is in that its makes you learn the knobs and switches in that realisticly modeled airplane like real pilot of that type would learn them and you know what switch, knob, leaver you move to do what and its positions in airplane.

With just presing the keyboard keys or combos of them you lear just that, i need to press that key to do this, it dosent help you to learn where is the correct leaver or switch or knob for it, as for gear i need to press G, for battery on i pres ctrl+B and so on one dont need to know their lever or switch position in diferant  types of airplanes like he would need to know in clicable cocpit... its good for games, in sims you should wont to know your airplane more ditailed and clicable cocpits give you just that.

That's all true, but what I was getting at was that memorizing a set of key-bindings and using it with minimal visual distraction from looking "out of the window" is more like operating the controls of a plane than using a mouse to click on the "world" you're looking at, IMO.

[Alesia]

I think the thing here is that you can strive for realism to the point that you slide into the Uncanny Valley and you start to become unrealistic....or at least the game feels unrealistic or the game becomes mechanically demanding such as piling over finicky engines or work loans upon the pilot that never really existed IRL due to how a human operates an aircraft vs how a simmer is able to operate the aircraft.

 

For example a pilot will know where a switch is by instinct or memory, or feel, but a simmer will have to fumble with a clickpit or keyboard to get the same job done and will probably take much longer to perform the same simple task.

[DD_bongodriver]

Why can't simmers learn the location of the controls the same way a pilot does? why can't the simmer memorise a group of key combinations with a common theme in all simulators like 'g' for gear?

[6S.Manu]

Why can't simmers learn the location of the controls the same way a pilot does? why can't the simmer memorise a group of key combinations with a common theme in all simulators like 'g' for gear?

[BigMotor]

HansHansen- Excellent, thought-provoking post. You have changed my mind in what a sim should be with present technology.

 

The every switch and dial experience (I thought I wanted)  is a noble goal but should wait for the future "Holodeck" .

[Alesia]

Why can't simmers learn the location of the controls the same way a pilot does? why can't the simmer memorise a group of key combinations with a common theme in all simulators like 'g' for gear?

I never said anything about learning key presses or knowing where things are in the cockpit or not. I did reference when this is taken to far and it begins to become unrealistic, unfun, or just plain taxing because the ergonomics of a keyboard are so vastly different from a Cockpit and simple cockpit tasks become overly complicated keyboard and mouse tasks.

[DD_bongodriver]

I don't find it complicated, but as a real life pilot I find it the best/cheapest solution for an authentic experience of operating the virtual aircraft, honestly it sounds to me like your ideal simulator is something you can download from the App store.

 

I have no problem with the simulators having the option to turn off the realism settings, I just don't want a simulator that has none to begin with.

[Alesia]

I don't find it complicated, but as a real life pilot I find it the best/cheapest solution for an authentic experience of operating the virtual aircraft, honestly it sounds to me like your ideal simulator is something you can download from the App store.

 

I have no problem with the simulators having the option to turn off the realism settings, I just don't want a simulator that has none to begin with.

 

 

I never said....Bongo...I don't even.

 

BTW, RL pilot here too, I'm tired of your attitude, and I'm tired of you taking anything to drive whatever point you want to drive, done with even replying to you anymore.

 

Edit:  I wouldn't even be on these forums looking to pre-order BOS if I wasn't looking for realism, think about that for a second.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Brann

[SKG51_robtek]

Realism is also a more or less great workload for the pilot even when not in a combat situation.

In combat the workload was huge!!! Staying alive, keep the engine and the plane intact, keep SA, search and destroy enemies.

Most pilots then lost SA and never knew what did shoot them down.

A realistic workload for the pilot gives the chance to catch him unaware, as it was in real!

[DD_bongodriver]

It still baffles me that there is this notion of having 'hundreds' of buttons to press, operating a WWII single piston engine fighter is barely more complicated than a complex single engine light aircraft, the number of buttons needed while in actual combat could probably be counted on 1 hand.

 

I never said....Bongo...I don't even.

 

BTW, RL pilot here too, I'm tired of your attitude, and I'm tired of you taking anything to drive whatever point you want to drive, done with even replying to you anymore.

 

Edit:  I wouldn't even be on these forums looking to pre-order BOS if I wasn't looking for realism, think about that for a second.

 

Ok, you say you want realism, yet are very vocal in complaining about realism........you lost me.

You are a RL pilot, this means that just like me you can chew gum and walk in a straight line all at the same time, what harm could a few mouse clicks do?

 

The only attitude is total confusion as to what you are asking for.

[Sokol1]

For many do (optionally) a more elaborate procedures (than hit I...) as example, one do some mission successfully RTB land and satisfied 

instead of only "Hit esc to end mission", want to park the aircraft in hangar, turn off engines (please not I again), etc... before quit the game,

dont make the game more "realistic" , but made more enjoyable.

 

Not everyone is in the "fly/kill only online faction".

 

Sokol1

[JtD]

So now "too much realism" means "too much clicking and typing"? What does a keyboard on a desk have to do with a real plane?

 

I think we're still far away from "too much realism" - realistic atmospheric model, ground model, collision model, damage model, flight model, AI, convincing graphics, good interface - all that is realism. It has nothing to do with I-need-to-press-100-buttons-in-exactly-that-sequence-before-I-take-off-or-else-I'm-doomed.

[FuriousMeow]

 what harm could a few mouse clicks do?

 

Do you use a mouse to manipulate any controls in your real cockpit? Do you have to reach for another object to navigate to any of the controls in your real cockpit? You manipulate them with your own hands, and you can reach directly to them without first reaching somewhere else to move an object towards the control you wish to manipulate.

 

That's why the mouse clicky dealy is nonsense, you aren't reaching for the actual dial/control. You are reaching for your mouse, then moving it to find out where the cursor is if the cursor auto-hides, then navigate it to another location on the screen where the button/dial/switch/etc is located to click it.

 

If touch screens were the norm, that'd be realistic. The above scenario is less than realistic, it's actually reverse realism.

 

May as well get rid of joysticks and just use two mice. One that you can use to right click and hold the in game joystick to manipulate it, and the other mouse to right click and adjust the throttle/buttons/dials/etc. Realism!

Edited October 7, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[DD_bongodriver]

I don't press 'SHIFT-anything' on a computer keyboard either, I don't have to wear a baseball cap with reflectors on and turn my head left but my eyes right, the point is we are operating simulated aircraft on home desktop PCs so what the hell difference does it make if we use standard PC interfaces to operate some functions?

 

Re read your post, that's where the real nonsense is, there are already flight games available that don't burden you with anything like having to operate simulated systems.

 

May as well get rid of joysticks and just use two mice. One that you can use to right click and hold the in game joystick to manipulate it, and the other mouse to right click and adjust the throttle/buttons/dials/etc. Realism!

 

 

May as well, and just plug in a gamepad..........circle circle triangle square pulls off the magic  P-51 summersault just like in Redtails.