SCG_Neun Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I understand from the developers standpoint on the real why's....behind not including the official versions of awards and medals in this game and in light of all the controversy over the swastika.....it's the smart move. SYN_Luftwaffles, on 06 Mar 2015 - 13:52, said: There a reason you guys refuse to use actual medals? I mean there are plenty, and lots of post war versions without the you-know-whats. Because we believe that actual medals are for actual heroes and for their brave deeds, not for smashing buttons that make pixels change colors. But come on.....devs....you make money recreating the mass murder of thousands of people in a game which utilizes " smashing buttons that make pixels change color". It's a simulation of a world war....we blow people out of the sky....we watch aircraft catch fire, engulfing cyber pilots in cyber flames. We blow the doo doo out of trains, tanks, convoys, and if you put a cyber sheep out there....they'd be toast as well. The explanation about honoring those real pilots that merited these awards is touching, but it does not mesh well with the reality behind any combat flight simulation. Cyber pilots...live and die. Cyber medals, not actual medals... are awarded and cyber battles lost and won. We do well to remember that all of this is based on real history. But why have a computer simulation at all.....if you cant simulate these things. I mean a cyber realistic medal is one thing....and a burning cyber realistic pilot in a cyber realistic burning plane going down..well that's okay? I don't care about the medals...some third party will come along and fix this anyway....I just thought the explanation was a little condescending.... 11
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 The campaign is a painful experience, I tried it and I don't like it, the experience points are a bad idea, the unlocks are a bad idea and to now be given medals such as 'AAA Destroyer' is just..... I've never been a big offliner so I don't really care but I was a little surprised by this. In my opinion they should spend enough time reading other forums to see what people like and don't like and stop forcing 'arcade game play' on to people that don't consider themselves gamers. I know it was in jest but the comment about 'smashing pixels' and another one about 'video game' are about as insulting as you can get to this community. 3
Freycinet Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 Come on guys, get out and smell the flowers, do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits? - How do you think your adult selves will look back on you in twenty years time, seeing what you spent your time on?
71st_AH_Hooves Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I agree 100% with thier reasoning. But being a veteran is possibly skewing my view. But if you werent there for real, you shouldnt get a medal for it, pixel or otherwise. Just my 2 cents. 3
SCG_Neun Posted March 7, 2015 Author Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Come on guys, get out and smell the flowers, do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits? - How do you think your adult selves will look back on you in twenty years time, seeing what you spent your time on? You spelled criticize wrong... Also Freycinet...I've complemented this game a lot. I guess you don't understand the word condescending....as I can see from your post. Very contemplative. I'll talk it over with my 6 kids and ten grandchildren as we reflect back on my legacy. I just like to be honest and upfront and the explanation was a bit weak in the knees. It just didn't make any sense.... Edited March 7, 2015 by JagdNeun 5
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Come on guys, get out and smell the flowers, do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits? - How do you think your adult selves will look back on you in twenty years time, seeing what you spent your time on? Frey this is about as ridiculous a comment as you can get. The devs have got a few things very wrong (everyone knows it) and they really should listen to the community because the latter won't change their minds. I really feel sorry for you if you think that criticism is a bad thing. Go on out to smell the flowers You spelled criticize wrong... Do you Americans have to b*stardiSe our language at every opportunity? lol I agree 100% with thier reasoning. But being a veteran is possibly skewing my view. But if you werent there for real, you shouldnt get a medal for it, pixel or otherwise. Just my 2 cents. Or you could say if you weren't there for real you shouldn't call yourself JG*_Graf or fly a certain skin etc etc. It's just bad reasoning and clearly not why they did this. I see certain people always rush to defend this sim regardless, I understand they might think that it's being attacked but surely you can tell the difference between people who want to see improvements and a certain group of nutters who want to see BOS fail. S! Edited March 7, 2015 by 6./JG5_Emil 2
SharpeXB Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I don't mind having game-like achievements for things like destroying a certain number of targets or crash landing so many time. That's fun. But I also think real medals and awards bring some reality to a game that's supposed to be set in a real historical setting. Maybe the real awards are best paired with a realistic career mode though. They'll certainly be included when one gets created by either the Devs or a third party. I like how RoF researched the award criteria as well. 4
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 Only 8% liked the unlocks...I imagine that about the same amount will like these hello kitty medals. http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11694-campaign-system-unlocks/ Again I personally don't care I only fly online but I've seen enough posts over the two decades I've played flight sims to know people will hate non-historic medals, unlocks, XP points and all the other arcade stuff. 1
Bussard_x Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I prefer the original medals for me this is a sim not a game. 1
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 Hahaha! Patronising as ever. I bet you're a really nice guy in real life too. Oh, the irony. Calm yourself man! Watch one of his videos and fall in to a deeeeeep sleeeep :D 1
Finkeren Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 If there was an actual career mode, where you played the 'life' of a single pilot, I would prefer historically accurate decorations and promotions. With the current campaign it really doesn't matter. However, since the medals in game are pretty much the same as 'achievements' in a Steam game, I'd like to know why I am awarded them, and that's only clear for a few of the medals.
SharpeXB Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 , I'd like to know why I am awarded them, and that's only clear for a few of the medals. Check DD 90 Zak just posted the award chart.
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 Check DD 90 Zak just posted the award chart. You just won this for 3 forum posts containing the word Zak :D
CheeseGromit Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 If there was an actual career mode, where you played the 'life' of a single pilot, I would prefer historically accurate decorations and promotions. With the current campaign it really doesn't matter. However, since the medals in game are pretty much the same as 'achievements' in a Steam game, I'd like to know why I am awarded them, and that's only clear for a few of the medals. Agreed on the first point. Real medals would add to the authenticity of a career mode. Authenticity is probably the primary reason I play these sort of games. For the campaign we have, I don't have an issue with achievement style awards. Aside from the chart mentioned, I thought you could click on any medal in game and get a summary of why it was awarded.
Bussard_x Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 With the current campaign set up the fictional medals are okay. But I do hope with a future more realistic campaign the real ones are available.
SharpeXB Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 You just won this for 3 forum posts containing the word Zak :D And this achievement for making 10 positive posts on the forum 1
IIN8II Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 I am still waiting for my medals to come in the mail!!!!!! Relax peeps
Finkeren Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Aside from the chart mentioned, I thought you could click on any medal in game and get a summary of why it was awarded. You can, but for the majority of them the text is just a summary of some event during the battle of Stalingrad with no connection to anything that actually happened in the mission where you were rewarded it. No mentioning of anything you did in particular. I guess the idea is for this to emulate the badges, medals and citations given to all soldiers that participated in a certain battle or action regardless of their individual achievements, but in the campaign it just feels strangely detatched, because the missions in general seem fairly similar and there's no sense of progression beyond simply advancing through the chapters. That makes the awards seem inconsequential and just calls to your attention how basic the campaign mode really is.
CheeseGromit Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) You're right and I think a lot of that comes back to the design of the campaign as you mention. It's a bizarre hybrid of story and game with the cutscenes and some of the medals providing the historical narative. The player is largely free do to whatever they want around that narative. Edited March 8, 2015 by cfnz
Finkeren Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Tbh. being awarded a (historically) accurate badge or citation for participating in some important action regardless of personal achievement would be great in a single-pilot career mode as well, knowing that the battle you just took part in was part of something bigger. But in the context of this campaign it doesn't really do much. 1
Finkeren Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 In fact: A better approach in this campaign might have been to include a text like we now have for the medals in the briefing text of some missions (something like 1 in 10 missions) letting you know, that the action you're about to engage in is part of an actual event during the BoS and then awarding you the medal, if you succeed/survive. 1
unreasonable Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I agree 100% with thier reasoning. But being a veteran is possibly skewing my view. But if you werent there for real, you shouldnt get a medal for it, pixel or otherwise. Just my 2 cents. I understand this point of view if you think that there is a danger of trivializing what people thought they had to do to protect their values, country or way of life. On the other hand having virtual awards based on real medals perhaps also encourages people to think about how and why they were awarded in a way that the rather vacuous Steam achievements do not. 1CGS is not going the "real" medals route because it they have decide not to try to create a "historic" SP campaign experience. While I am not so happy about that, it is at least consistent. If 3rd party SP campaigns like PWCG for RoF can be built, they will certainly include "real" medals. Personally I have no problem with including depictions of real awards as game material... as an ex-serviceman myself, I am sure that (most?) gamers can recognize the difference between a real gallantry award or campaign medal and a virtual version. Still, here is some food for thought from someone who knew a bit about warfare: "A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon". Napoleon Bonaparte 1
AndyHill Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I don't really think giving a virtual representation of an iron cross for virtual achievements would be disrespectful or otherwise negative in itself. I don't think the problems with swastika are new to anyone on these forums and I think it's probably the most important reason for leaving out all of the medals and coming up with new achievements for all sides of the conflict - which is in a way fair. The fact that you can't use a historical symbol in a historical context is something I strongly disagree with, though. I don't mind flying a simulated aircraft with a swastika on the tail or "za Stalina" inscribed on the fuselage, because I'm not advocating either ideology while doing so nor do I cause any real harm to anyone when I shoot people virtually. In fact I would like all those symbols to be there for everyone to see, the peoples of this world would do well to never forget the atrocities committed by the respective regimes; the games we play may be harmless fun but the events they were based on were not. However, that's not up to the game makers, they have to abide by the laws and regulations however much we might disagree with them. In general the achievements tailored for the game are a good idea whether or not "real" medals are also given to pilots for doing well. The real war was obviously so completely different from the virtual representation we get nowadays that the conditions for receiving a specific medal often don't make that much sense at all. Instead of a few hundred kills for the best of us many will end up with thousands or tens of thousands, by which point in reality the plane wouldn't take off under all the extra weight if you tried to fly with all the medals on your flight suit. Of course that doesn't mean that there couldn't also be a set of medals modeled on actual period awards as well, but in all honesty I'm not personally that interested in them (but I would of course be happy for the people who are if they were included). For me personally the by far best reward for doing well in the campaign would be for my actions to have meaning - a blown bridge slowing down an actual enemy or a few planes shot down would be a few planes less for the enemy - or at least I'd like to not get punished for doing well by the Pilot Level going up and making my virtual life artificially harder.
Chuck_Owl Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Come on guys, get out and smell the flowers, do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits? - How do you think your adult selves will look back on you in twenty years time, seeing what you spent your time on? I already imagine the end of my Luftwaffe virtual career in a siberian Gulag, tied up on a small chair being interrogated by a NKVD Commissar: Interrogator: Speak, you German swine... tell me where you hid your German Cross with Diamonds! Me: Never! Interrogator: I know you have them! We have pictures of you with them. Where did you hide them! Me: I don't know what you are talking about. Interrogator: Speak! Wouldn't you like to see your fictional wife and your unborn child again? Da? Then cooperate! Me: I swear, I never saw the Diamonds in my life! *Interrogator slaps me* Interrogator: We have a photograph of you with the Fuhrer himself, don't you dare try to deny it! Me: I don't know why I would have met Hitler! Interrogator: Oh, we have a file on you, you canadian german hockey fan fascist pig! We know you shot down our top brain-dead AI pilot aces during the Battle of Stalingrad! We know you dropped a crate full of german sausage in front of Stalin's desk during the Battle of Moscow! We know you sent inappropriate remarks in the chat bar during the Battle of Kuban! We know you transmitted that horrifying austrian yodeling on soviet radio comms during the Battle of Kursk! And WE KNOW that you helped the Fuhrer escape in a unicorn-shaped space shuttle during the Battle of Berlin! Me: Lies, all filthy lies! Interrogator: Start talking, Herr Chuck, or you will feel the wrath of my gnarly communist hands! Me: I never had the Cross with Diamonds, you have to believe me, comrade Commissar! The only thing Hitler gave me was that Hello Kitty medal! Edited March 8, 2015 by 71st_AH_Chuck 1
J2_Trupobaw Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 The actual motivation behind the "actual medals for actual heroes" part may well be soviet medals and fact that company operates in Russia and has ties with that military history society... Things like Hero of Soviet Union may still be to sacrocansct in Russia for guys like 1CG being able to safely award photo of it to players .
SCG_Neun Posted March 8, 2015 Author Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) The actual motivation behind the "actual medals for actual heroes" part may well be soviet medals and fact that company operates in Russia and has ties with that military history society... Things like Hero of Soviet Union may still be to sacrocansct in Russia for guys like 1CG being able to safely award photo of it to players . That could be....and when you put it like that...I can understand it as making more sense to me. But I cannot excuse what they did to Herr Chuck! Absolutely no telling what they did to Herr Ball and Herr Lipp.....it's inexcusable.....! Edited March 8, 2015 by JagdNeun
Finkeren Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 The actual motivation behind the "actual medals for actual heroes" part may well be soviet medals and fact that company operates in Russia and has ties with that military history society... Things like Hero of Soviet Union may still be to sacrocansct in Russia for guys like 1CG being able to safely award photo of it to players . Except 1C made historical medals for the original IL-2. 3
fiddlinjim Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Come on guys, get out and smell the flowers, do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits? - How do you think your adult selves will look back on you in twenty years time, seeing what you spent your time on? This is a great sim, I am a veteran with my own military awards and I can't imagine adults pissin and moanin about imaginary medals and other silly [Edited] that exists in a video game. As Freycinet stated and Chuck intimated "do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits" \ Edited March 9, 2015 by Bearcat
SCG_Neun Posted March 8, 2015 Author Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) You're right they are "imaginary medals" so we are in agreement with that point. You, I suppose have some real ones....thank you for your service. For some of us...this isn't "[Edited]" and this is more than a video game....and I am in agreement with the dev's on that point. Real people died, real people should be honored and we have to keep the reality of what this game is based upon. Anything short of that and it is just another video game. Even medals depicting the real, tangible medals...in the world of pixels...would be just that...representations...the same representations that make a simulation based on human suffering possible in the first place. To each their own, but this has never been Wolfenstein for me and most of my comrades in the CFS community. Listen....this is a forum where we can discuss things......if some want to criticize, well so be it, very often it's countered by some good points these same people might point out. Who cares? Dial in, or dial out. Edited March 9, 2015 by Bearcat
SCG_Neun Posted March 8, 2015 Author Posted March 8, 2015 Just to make a point....this respect for the simulation is something that I've always felt and even posted here.....many months ago...under post #22 and something I feel strongly about. http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7220-do-you-fly-honor/
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 This is a great sim, I am a veteran with my own military awards and I can't imagine adults pissin and moanin about imaginary medals and other silly sh*t that exists in a video game. As Freycinet stated and Chuck intimated "do you absolutely need to criticise every tiny little thing about this sim to bits" Is it so hard to understand? It's not about medals it's about historical aircraft, historical missions, historical accuracy and yes historical awards. This is supposed to be a flight simulator not a childish game....at least that is what we were told when we were asked to back the development. The medals/badges are a small part of a bigger picture. I couldn't care less about offline play but in 20 years of simming I know the community well enough to know this was not going to impress many offliners, on top of which the campaign is not going to float their boat either. It's not rocket science there is a tried and tested system (IL-2) that people generally liked over the years and for some inexplicable reason the sim has gone off at a tangent (in this department) and is introducing ridiculous gamey aspects. Maybe they thought they were going to attract $WOW-Thunder$ players....but hey many of them were already coming to play BOS and it wasn't because of strange badges but because BOS was supposed to be a better sim. Stick to what made IL-2 great and it will remain so....the potential is there.
Freycinet Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Is it so hard to understand? It's not about medals it's about historical aircraft, historical missions, historical accuracy and yes historical awards. This is supposed to be a flight simulator not a childish game....at least that is what we were told when we were asked to back the development. The medals/badges are a small part of a bigger picture. I couldn't care less about offline play but in 20 years of simming I know the community well enough to know this was not going to impress many offliners, on top of which the campaign is not going to float their boat either. It's not rocket science there is a tried and tested system (IL-2) that people generally liked over the years and for some inexplicable reason the sim has gone off at a tangent (in this department) and is introducing ridiculous gamey aspects. Maybe they thought they were going to attract $WOW-Thunder$ players....but hey many of them were already coming to play BOS and it wasn't because of strange badges but because BOS was supposed to be a better sim. Stick to what made IL-2 great and it will remain so....the potential is there. Exactly the kind of overly aggressive posting that make these forums a very disagreable reading experience. Some people, mostly those who are constantly very very critical of the sim, really ought to dial down the gall a bit. It is not as if there aren't a lot of other things to be mad at in this world. Maybe save the anger for more worthy causes...
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Exactly the kind of overly aggressive posting that make these forums a very disagreable reading experience. Some people, mostly those who are constantly very very critical of the sim, really ought to dial down the gall a bit. It is not as if there aren't a lot of other things to be mad at in this world. Maybe save the anger for more worthy causes... Do you really have to be such a drama queen? 2
Wulf Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) You're right they are "imaginary medals" so we are in agreement with that point. You, I suppose have some real ones....thank you for your service. For some of us...this isn't "[Edited]" and this is more than a video game....and I am in agreement with the dev's on that point. Real people died, real people should be honored and we have to keep the reality of what this game is based upon. Anything short of that and it is just another video game. Even medals depicting the real, tangible medals...in the world of pixels...would be just that...representations...the same representations that make a simulation based on human suffering possible in the first place. To each their own, but this has never been Wolfenstein for me and most of my comrades in the CFS community. Listen....this is a forum where we can discuss things......if some want to criticize, well so be it, very often it's countered by some good points these same people might point out. Who cares? Dial in, or dial out. Lets say we take a digital image of your national flag and just for a laugh we have someone taking a digital dump on it. Now, would you consider that distasteful or disrespectful? I would, but I assume you wouldn't. And really when you think about it, why would you, it's just a digital image after all. Edited March 9, 2015 by Bearcat
LastRightsXIII Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Lets say we take a digital image of your national flag and just for a laugh we have someone taking a digital dump on it. Now, would you consider that distasteful or disrespectful? I would, but I assume you wouldn't. And really when you think about it, why would you, it's just a digital image after all. That is so not the point. The point is a BoS was sold as a historically accurate sim and it is very much not. It has become a fantastic fantasy game. That's it. 2
SCG_Neun Posted March 9, 2015 Author Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Wulf, you do miss the point. I'm answering some guy with Jim Belushi as his avatar about whether this is a bunch of silly shit or not, or something more respectful. You also miss the point that I do understand some of this logic about honoring the real men and women who fought in this conflict. I also said I understand why the dev's chose not to use the realistic medals and that I really don't have a problem with that. Now whatever you want to do with the digital flag of my country is entirely up to you and the rules of this forum.... Now listen...I've made my point on this.....I thought the one sentence blow off on the medals was uncalled for and a little condescending...that's all I'm going to say about it. I'm not going to go back and forth with the logic which will never convince certain people. If we were at a coffee house, we'd laugh and just disagree, most likely in a friendly way and let that be that. I doubt that anyone would seriously say things about smelling the flowers and about reflecting on our lives twenty years from now..It would just be guys sharing some views on our hobby of sorts and nothing more. La cuenta por favor. Edited March 9, 2015 by JagdNeun
wellenbrecher Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Except 1C made historical medals for the original IL-2. Russia changed a lot in the last decade. Laws (or is it still only a bill?) like that "no criticism of the war-time Red Army" thing, just to name one example.
SCG_Neun Posted March 9, 2015 Author Posted March 9, 2015 Correction....John Belushi on the avatar...movie 1941...
6./ZG26_Emil Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 How have we gone from wanting a realistic sim (not a game) to insulting a nation's war time history or dumping on someone's flag? Bizarre
Wulf Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Wulf, you do miss the point. I'm answering some guy with Jim Belushi as his avatar about whether this is a bunch of silly shit or not, or something more respectful. You also miss the point that I do understand some of this logic about honoring the real men and women who fought in this conflict. I also said I understand why the dev's chose not to use the realistic medals and that I really don't have a problem with that. Now whatever you want to do with the digital flag of my country is entirely up to you and the rules of this forum.... Now listen...I've made my point on this.....I thought the one sentence blow off on the medals was uncalled for and a little condescending...that's all I'm going to say about it. I'm not going to go back and forth with the logic which will never convince certain people. If we were at a coffee house, we'd laugh and just disagree, most likely in a friendly way and let that be that. I doubt that anyone would seriously say things about smelling the flowers and about reflecting on our lives twenty years from now..It would just be guys sharing some views on our hobby of sorts and nothing more. La cuenta por favor. I understand what you're saying. The point I'm making is that some things are (or at least should be) sacred and we should respect that. Just because something is digital doesn't make it okay. I fully appreciate that images of the original medals would be better for some people from the point of immersion. However, that doesn't change the fact that in doing so, we cheapen the the significance of the real thing. I personally would feel very uncomfortable being awarded copies of genuine medals. I would wonder how such a thing would make someone who'd earned the real thing, in combat, actually feel. I'd wonder if they'd find it disrespectful to the memory of all of those people who fought and died in that war? I think, given what some of them went through, that they might find it hard to believe that subsequent generations could be so insensitive as to think, even for a moment, that such a thing would be okay.
Recommended Posts