Caudron431 Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Calling the appalling criminal misuse of your own troops as a "strategy" would be to redefine the term. Callous disregard combined with gross incompetence might be a better way of describing it. Yet this -as you call it "criminal misuse of your own troops "- combined with all this "incompetence" was enough to crush the "german technological excellence" and "superior tradition" in military!? I find you're too hard with the Germans! The soviet strategy was the good one, it appears, since it crushed the german armies, they could not do anything to stop it, and believe it or not, one day the Soviets were in Berlin. I would hardly call the Kursk battle a sign of gross incompetence. Lots of battles had questionable strategies, I'll give you that. But the Russians did prove that they could use sound tactics as well. The bloodbath in the last stages of the war was not due to Zhukov's incompetence, far from that. Stalin had given him a deadline to finish off Berlin in time for the May Day parade. "Or else..." was not an option. Some Russian commanders showed signs of tactical genius. Too bad the early soviet war doctrine discouraged tactical innovations. Aleksandr Pokryshkin's documentary I posted on the forum shows very clearly that there were competent commanders yet the war doctrine imposed by Stalin tied their hands (or got them shot or sent to work camps). It took some people with balls of steel like Pokryshkin, Chuikov, Rokossovsky and Malinovsky. Exactly!
6./ZG26_Custard Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 26.6 millionYet this -as you call it "criminal misuse of your own troops "- combined with all this "incompetence" was enough to crush the "german technological excellence" and "superior tradition" in military!? I find you're too hard with the Germans! The soviet strategy was the good one, it appears, since it crushed the german armies, they could not do anything to stop it, and believe it or not, one day the Soviets were in Berlin. Exactly! I think a rather much more sobering thought, and maybe a more exacting reason is the approximate loss of life on both sides. German military and civilian war dead at 7.3 million, Soviet military and civilian war dead 26.6 million.
Feathered_IV Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 So, just to recap: Germany would have won, but the allies cheated? 2
II./JG77_Manu* Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 So, just to recap: Germany would have won, but the allies cheated? There is no "win" in war, for neither side. (only for weapon industry and investment companies). Russia definitely lost more in this war then Germany. Still amazed that this thread isn't closed yet.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 -snip- Still amazed that this thread isn't closed yet. Selective moderation has been a standard for these forums since about... December 2012..?
Bearcat Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Perhaps we should keep in mind that Germany started the war too. All those brave, heroic, patriotic young Germans in their lovely smart uniforms and uber planes and tanks set out not only to conquer eastern europe and the Soviet Union but also to commit a huge genocide upon those populations. They did it with their eyes wide open too. Everywhere the Germans went in the east this is what they set out to do. All German forces can be implicated in crimes against humanity in the east. Theres no getting away from this. Incidentally, before we go down the "they were only acting under orders/would have been shot if they refused" argument; there are a few recorded incidents of individuals refusing to take part in massacres and senior officers protesting to Berlin about what was going on. There are no records of any disciplinary action being taken against German soldiers refusing to take part in these actions. They had a choice. They made that choice and they reaped the whirlwind. Whether this is a suitable subject for a flight sim forum? Well its history now - luckily. I will add this in regards to this statement.. It is easy to pass judgement on an entire nation based on the 20/20 vision of 70 years' hindsight. Bear in mind that all Germans were not Nazis.. and not all Germans thought war was a good idea.. Many paid the ultimate price in getting that point across. The Nazi propaganda machine from 1936-1944 was a formidable machine the likes of which the world had not seen.. If you have not done so give "I Flew for the Fuhrer by Heinz Knoke" a read... It gave me some perspectives on the German side of WWII that I had not known and is one reason why I make it a point to separate Nazis and Germans.. Yes it is true most Nazis were Germans.. but many Germans were not Nazis.. The take away for previous generations as far as the instigation of WWII goes should not be one of "Germany started the war and reaped the whirlwind" but one of being mindful of what happens when a small band of ideologues and thugs use legal means to gain power over the military and the means of communication and take advantage of hard times. I had to amend this post a bit.. I don't want anyone to think I am defending the Nazis ... I am not in any way.. I am defending the German people.. some of them anyway.. because they were victims of the Nazis as well .. the German Jews were citizens.. and IMO it is just wrong to lump the whole nation in the Nazi bowl.. I also know that Knocke was a Nazi .. I was not referring to him as not a Nazi but pointing out his book as an example of some of the manipulations done by the party playing on the fears of the people as far as the Soviets were concerned.. which I was un aware of until I read the book. Edited March 5, 2015 by Bearcat Clarification.. 6
Recommended Posts