Why Did I Pay For The 190, When I Can't Even Get It Off The Ground?

[Crump]

 

 

Or maybe it means that it is impossible to turn a real 190 with a locked tailwheel..? 

 

Which is the case.  You could make small directional changes of a few degrees with differential braking but maneuvering around the ramp was done tailwheel unlocked (stick forward).   Point the nose where you want to go, stick back to lock the tailwheel, and go.

 

 

 

SharpeXB

 

 

If you were a beta tester for the DCS Dora.....

 

Good job.  Having a few hours and a decade of taildragger ownership, the ground handling is spot on.   The control input principles used in reality work as they should in the game.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Just had a 10 min taxi session. I find with tailwheel unlocked I can keep control with breaks. As soon as want to go straight locked tail wheel and rudder is fine. I'm not saying it's completely accurate but more than manageable. Basically unlock and breaks for tight turns and locked and rudder for faster shallow turns

[von_Tom]

Maybe this discussion should wait until the summer map is released then we can see the effect of ice if it has been modelled.

 

von Tom

 

ps This is an interesting document about the A8. I've no idea what it is as it's English rather than German, or if it is an accurate translation (if that is what it is), but it is a good read. http://www.qattara.it/Documents/fw190a8.pdf

Gosh what a good idea!

 

von Tom

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The season does not matter if this behaviour does nto apply to other planes ingame. As far as my tests are concerned no other plane ingame acts like the 190 in regard to taxi behaviour with unlocked / free casting tailwheel, they all have a clear noticeably directional stability (to some point).

 

A while ago this discussion has been brought up else where and devs replied it's due to the wide undercarriage of the 190. Can't find the link but as far as my reply from Han is concerned they think it's correct the way it is currently.

 

Again, no need to make up arguments for it working properly. Just test it ingame and compare it so we all can discuss it on an equal level rather than purely guestimates.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Gosh what a good idea!

 

von Tom

 

I lol'd. 

 

+1

[Bussard_x]

The conclusion of this topic is: the ground handling of the Focke Wulf needs a fix.

[SharpeXB]

The season does not matter if this behaviour does nto apply to other planes ingame. As far as my tests are concerned no other plane ingame acts like the 190 in regard to taxi behaviour with unlocked / free casting tailwheel, they all have a clear noticeably directional stability (to some point).

 

A while ago this discussion has been brought up else where and devs replied it's due to the wide undercarriage of the 190. Can't find the link but as far as my reply from Han is concerned they think it's correct the way it is currently.

 

Again, no need to make up arguments for it working properly. Just test it ingame and compare it so we all can discuss it on an equal level rather than purely guestimates.

I notice all the planes can ground loop with free tail wheels but the 190 is the hardest to control. It seems to have more spin imparted from the prop effect and the wide wheel base means when you brake on one side that imparts a larger turning force. But that should also means the braking effect of the opposite wheel to stop the turn should have more effect too. Keeping a straight path with the free tail means dancing on the R and L brakes and with keys or buttons that's a bit like trying to drive a car with the WASD keys in a FPS game (I hate doing that)

[BlackDevil]

 But that should also means the braking effect of the opposite wheel to stop the turn should have more effect too. 

 

Not exactly:

 

Did anybody think of the effect of a slippery surface ? You stear by using differential brake. As soon as you got the turn rate you wanted, you stop that turn around the vertical axis by using opposite brake. And here the icy surface will interfere. The faster outer wheel doesn't get the grip to stop the turn. The only way to avoid that is to taxi slow enough.

 

 

As soon as you have developed a ground loop, you are not able to stop it again by opposite brake. This is true for all surfaces. But the slippery the surface is, the less margin you have (deviation of heading to the straight line, before it develops)

 

 

 

 

@5tuka:   I made your test 10 times in a row :  rejected take off without brakes. No single ground loop !   Without steering input (rudder is enough when going straight), every taildragger will groundloop. Maybe you are used to sims, where they go straight on rails.

 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Yea BlackDevil, you are so true. Stupid me playing DCS and all this other crap done be people with no clue how to model aircraft properly. Thx for enlightening me with your personal insults and offensive writing!

 

Oh and I see no video. Too bad as I'd love to believe you actually.

[BlackDevil]

PM me your email and I send you a track file. BTW, I didn't insult you. I am just saying that their is nothing wrong with the ground model IMO. It just behaves as I would expect it to on a slippery surface. And I never said DCS is stupid.

[Rama]

Yea BlackDevil, you are so true. Stupid me playing DCS and all this other crap done be people with no clue how to model aircraft properly. Thx for enlightening me with your personal insults and offensive writing!

BlackDevil didn't insult you in any way, and wasn't even agressive.

 

By using a sarcasm in which you insulted yourself, you are using an agressive tone toward him.... so please, don't reverse the roles.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Get back on track people

[Marauder]

 

BlackDevil didn't insult you in any way, and wasn't even agressive.

 

By using a sarcasm in which you insulted yourself, you are using an agressive tone toward him.... so please, don't reverse the roles.

Did you even read the topic? Edited March 6, 2015 by Marauder

[Rama]

Did you even read the topic?

Yes I did.

And since you asked, I did it again, in order to be reasonably sure I didn't miss anything.

So if I really missed something, could you report the post in which BlackDevil suposedly insulted 5tuka?

 

TY

[SharpeXB]

 

 

Not exactly:

 

 

 

 

 

As soon as you have developed a ground loop, you are not able to stop it again by opposite brake. This is true for all surfaces. But the slippery the surface is, the less margin you have (deviation of heading to the straight line, before it develops)

 

If you consider the lever arm action making the wheels farther apart both makes the brakes more inclined to start a spin if only one is applied and also should make one more effective at stopping. But considering coefficient of friction, the slower moving wheel would have more traction hence the outer wheel doesn't become that effective stopping the turn since the farther from the pivot it is, the faster it's moving.

[BlackDevil]

Everyone, who is really interested in the topic, can check the quality of the FM that way:

 

 

Record your groundloop

 

Playback at 1/4 speed with outside camera behind the plane

 

 

What you will see:   There is no causeless groundloop. The plane slowly starts yawing to one side. Without steering input the speed of the yaw increases and the groundloop begins. I was surprised myself by the great modelling of the physics involved (bank, correct turn of the tailwheel etc.)

Feel free to compare this with older versions of IL2

 

 

One of the differences of the 190 to other planes is the huge cowling of the radial engine. You will be astonished, how much yaw you let develop, before you start with correcting rudder inputs. If, as it was designed, the stick is full back (every pilot was trained to have the stick full back from the first flight in any german plane), the locked tailwheel will allow a greater drift angle, before correcting inputs are necessary. So you can avoid the groundloop by either operate the plane as it was designed, or you can deliberatley let the stick go out of the back position, but then you have to keep it straight. It will not groundloop, if you keep it straight.

 

If you can show a groundloop (camera as I described !) without steering fault, I owe you a beer

 

 

 

If you consider the lever arm action making the wheels farther apart both makes the brakes more inclined to start a spin if only one is applied and also should make one more effective at stopping. But considering coefficient of friction, the slower moving wheel would have more traction hence the outer wheel doesn't become that effective stopping the turn since the farther from the pivot it is, the faster it's moving.

 

 

And this is exactly what I tried to explain

Edited March 6, 2015 by BlackDevil

[BlackDevil]

What you can see on this vid:   the BoS FM of the FW 190 allows rather big heading changes without entering a groundloop. My piloting on this vid is at best medium, but the plane stays fully controlled. If someone with taildragger experience thinks, that the real plane should allow even more drift angle without developing a groundloop, please feel free to correct me. I didn't use brakes (just at the last meter before the end of runway)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2015 by BlackDevil

[9./JG27golani79]

Nice "taxiing" with locked tailwheel most of the time except the few seconds shortly after the beginning.

 

But we were talking about doing coordinated turns on the ground with unlocked tailwheel.

 

 

 So you can avoid the groundloop by either operate the plane as it was designed, or you can deliberatley let the stick go out of the back position,

 

So you are saying the 190 was designed to be taxiied with locked tailwheel? ...
No one here said to not lock your tailwheel if you wanna go straight ...

[BlackDevil]

5tuka made a vid of a rejected take off as proof of the wrong FM. 

 

I don´t spend time to make a taxi vid. You can´t groundloop at taxi speed. That is trivial. And "I am not saying" - it is common knowledge that a taildragger has to be taxied with stick full back. If Tank did design the tailwheel to be locked at that position, he most propably knew what he is doing. For hard turns you release the stick and use differential brakes. Of course you do that at walking speed. Common knowledge again. Every german fighter pilot has been trained on various biplanes. Do some taxi training with RoF and the FW190 will be no problem. Why do you think, you don´t need any training to taxi a 1700 hp taildragger ?

 

It goes the same way through the whole forum:  bounced landings, runways to short, sideslips, overstearing called "wobble", etc etc  If the pilot fails due to lack of training, the FM is wrong. I don´t say there is nothing to improve, but this is not the way. BoS is not Cxxx, otherwise I wouldn´t spend my time with it.

Edited March 6, 2015 by BlackDevil

[SharpeXB]

It's possible that stuff in the manual gets misinterpreted. It looks like the reality is you taxi straight with a locked tail wheel and unlock it to make turns. When turning use very little brake on the inside wheel and you'll start turning fast. Hit the opposite brake right away and slow down, if you get going too fast you'll slide into a loop.

Keeping all that in mind it's not hard to handle.

Trying to taxi in a straight line with the tail wheel unlocked really isn't called for and in the game if you're not using toe axis brakes it's very difficult.

All the planes pretty much behave this way but the 190 because of its wide gear is tougher.

Edited March 6, 2015 by SharpeXB

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

BoS:

 

Ju 87, wide landing gear -> no such behaviour

IL-2, wide landing gear -> no such behaviour

DCS Dora, wide landing gear -> no such behaviour

 

Even the 109, which should infact be way more instable during taxiing (as reported by numberous pilots) infact isn't. I already showed a video of me accelerating to moderate speed with tailwheel unlocked, which sure isn't possible in lets say DCS but more realitsicly modeled than the 190 in BoS.

 

Remember, this is a limited artificial physical envirounment. In reality you have dozens of factors effecting your dircetional stability. It's nto that compley ingame, means without any side force the plane should perfectly go straight even with unlocked tailwheel.

 

Thx for the video. I'd have preferred a cockpit recording so I can see your overall workload better but I will try to replicate it.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[9./JG27golani79]

 I already showed a video of me accelerating to moderate speed with tailwheel unlocked, which sure isn't possible in lets say DCS [...].

 

It is possible in DCS - it´s just not that easy to keep her straight.

[Crump]

 

 

All the planes pretty much behave this way but the 190 because of its wide gear is tougher.

 

Huh? 

[JtD]

Please note, I agree with Crump on this one. To the letter.

[SharpeXB]

Huh?

When turning. Since your wheel brake on one side is farther out from the center hitting it makes you turn faster. Or maybe it's the prop effect.

[BlackDevil]

..... means without any side force the plane should perfectly go straight even with unlocked tailwheel.

 

You never have no side force. The smallest side force of an idle running propeller (modelled in BoS) does give enough force to initiate yaw. It is the physic of a taildragger, that the yaw accelerates by itself.

 

PS: I really didn't know, that the 190 is going more rapidly into the groundloop than other BoS planes (before this thread did start), because I am used to taxi with stick back and I never taxi faster as I can control.

 

 

 

Huh?

 

Draw the picture of the geometry. The inner wheel makes the center of the turn. CoG is farer outside with a wider gear. Edited March 6, 2015 by BlackDevil

[SKG51_robtek]

If all the energy here to mask or belittle the problem, that is prominent in just one plane, would be used to solve the problem, there wouldn't be one anymore.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

When turning. Since your wheel brake on one side is farther out from the center hitting it makes you turn faster. Or maybe it's the prop effect.

If you apply too much brake, yes, it should groudn loop. Even with wide landing gear only small percentages of brake shouldn't create giant throw though. Real pilots didn't apply brakes mm wise but by feel. The moment you realise the 190 is turning away from it's taxi line ingame it's already too late.

 

Can we at leats agree that without applying any brake the wide landing gear should be more stable than for example the 109 with narrow landign gear? That would be at least be a first step.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Crump]

 

 

Draw the picture of the geometry. The inner wheel makes the center of the turn. CoG is farer outside with a wider gear.

 

Right....

 

Longer arm = more stable

 

That is why you want wide gear on a taildragger. 

It also means more force is generated by the outside tire when it comes to braking action.  Sure the speed will be higher....but not enough to negate the longer arm.  

[PFR_Bearkiller72]

Please don't get me wrong... I hate to complain but. I have thousands of hours of combat fighter simulator practice. How many sims pilots can say the they can fly a 109 F4 without being in the plane? Thats turning it around too.

My problem is, I've tried at least a dozen time to taxi the (focke-wulf 190) to the runway and take off. But it just ground loops on me?

 Please tell me how to lock tail wheel, or what am I not doing right???

 

Sincerely, Scott64

Luckily you don't seem to be the owner of DCS's Fw-190 "Dora" module. Now that's a PITA when it comes to ground handling.

I dunno how many "simulator hours" I have on my watch, but my first experiences date back to "Ace Of Aces" on the C-64.

 

The '190 is a lady, don't treat her roughly; know her twitches and she'll be a goddess in return.

What wonders me is that you don't complain about all the russian crates ground behaviour, which is (and as afaik WAS) a true PITA.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

If all the energy here to mask or belittle the problem, that is prominent in just one plane, would be used to solve the problem, there wouldn't be one anymore.

 

Finally some sense in this thread...

[Vig]

I am having a terrible time taking off because of this issue.  I haven't tried the "pull back to lock tailwheel" thing yet and I hope it works.  But I gotta say I would never have purchased all the planes in RoF if I had this much difficulty at the beginning. 

[SharpeXB]

I am having a terrible time taking off because of this issue. I haven't tried the "pull back to lock tailwheel" thing yet and I hope it works. But I gotta say I would never have purchased all the planes in RoF if I had this much difficulty at the beginning.

You should lock the tail wheel for all the aircraft on takeoff. Also hold the stick back to keep the tail down until you have enough speed to make the rudder effective. Don't hold the stick back too long or you'll take off prematurely and stall.

Edited March 8, 2015 by SharpeXB

[sop]

I am having a terrible time taking off because of this issue.  I haven't tried the "pull back to lock tailwheel" thing yet and I hope it works.  But I gotta say I would never have purchased all the planes in RoF if I had this much difficulty at the beginning. 

well you are doing it wrong then you dont even have  to force it back ........ to lock it. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by sop

[SharpeXB]

well you are doing it wrong then you dont even have  to force it back ........ to lock it.

 

On all the planes it helps to hold the tail down. Some have actual locking levers. I think the 190 is the only one where holding the stick full back locks the wheel.

[Vig]

well you are doing it wrong then you dont even have  to force it back ........ to lock it. 

 

Thanks so much!  I have been flying sims since Air Warrior and have never had any serious difficulty before.  Now I realize that I'm doing it wrong!  Huh!  After reading all of the threads about this general problem, I guess that there are a lot of people who are doing it wrong.  But it's a sim, so that's OK!  So how to you think the Moscow update will sell with all of the stupid people weeded out of the buyers' pool?

 

Yeesh.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I can taxi around all day now with the tail wheel locked (all the time I may add)  and applying gentle braking here and there.  

 

Taxiing with the tail wheel unlocked and using purely brakes and rudder is another matter entirely, it requires a PhD in patience and far too much larking about!

 

If it really is modelled accurately (general consensus is no) then its a wonder they got it off the ground at all.  

Edited March 8, 2015 by OriginalCustard

[Vig]

OK, I fixed my problem.  Somehow my rudder pedals became unmapped; with no rudder, all the LaGG would do is turn right and circle when engine RPMs increased.  This was not easy to troubleshoot because exterior view is not available with expert settings.  I suggest anyone else who encounters ground severe looping should double-check their rudder assignments. 

[Felix58]

Interesting that in the DCS forum pilots want to learn the technique, here it is "the game is broken."

Anyway, as the second post mentions, the key is to use the tailwheel lock by pulling the joystick back - not LSH G.

 

1. Start the take-off roll with the stick back and too the right, right rudder applied.  Crucial part of the take-off technique is timing when to pitch center the stick. When the tail wheel unlocks your already applied rudder input yaws the plane to the right and you start skidding (and skidding at these speeds is drift extravaganza!). Those that haven't figured it out yet, do not center the stick until you reach ~150km/h. At this speed you can move the stick to pitch neutral quite quickly (keep the right bias) and nothing untoward should happen. Your tail will get airborne, which will add to your yaw ability, so less rudder will be required to keep the plane aligned with the runway.

2. On the other hand, if you hold the stick back too long your take-off will end in tears. If the elevator is nailing your tail to the ground and you gain enough speed to create lift under the main wing the result is a stall immediately after take-off.

3. Be prepared to counter the prop gyro effect and apply a slight roll to the right the moment your wheels leave the ground.    To reiterate, when moving the stick to the neutral pitch position keep it biased to the right.  Once you find the sweet spot, take-offs will become routine.

 

Taxi

Combination of holding the stick back, and releasing and applying toe brakes, then reapplying the tailwheel lock, ie stick back

[SharpeXB]

3. Be prepared to counter the prop gyro effect and apply a slight roll to the right the moment your wheels leave the ground. To reiterate, when moving the stick to the neutral pitch position keep it biased to the right.

I think if you have the right speed at rotation you shouldn't need the aileron. The drop of the left wing is caused by too high an angle of attack and not enough lift. Also to maintain a path along the runway center you'd need left rudder to counter the right aileron and then you're sideslipping on take off.

DCS Dora is more punishing than BoS and the way to get the takeoff smooth is use the rudder to stay straight but not the ailerons.

Edited March 9, 2015 by SharpeXB