Why Did I Pay For The 190, When I Can't Even Get It Off The Ground?

[SharpeXB]

I'm referring to the pilot manual, which I quoted. Twice.

"No tendency" would imply the plane does not ground loop at all which seems unlikely for a tail dragger warbird. Is the translation correct? The one linked here is in English I'm not sure how it's translated. Edited March 4, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I wonder what references the developers used to model taxi only with locked tailwheel.

 

Well, it certainly isn't anecdotal. 

"No tendency" would imply the plane does not ground loop at all which seems unlikely for a tail dragger warbird.

 

No, it would imply that it doesn't tend to ground loop. It doesn't imply that ground looping is impossible, it implies that it certainly is.

 

"It's an obvious point but those can get lost here." - SharpeXB, 2015

 

Coming on these boards and having discussions with [Edited] is like speaking words in to the biggest, densest black hole in the universe. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by Bearcat

[SharpeXB]

Well, it certainly isn't anecdotal.

 

 

No, it would imply that it doesn't tend to ground loop. It doesn't imply that ground looping is impossible, it implies that it certainly is.

 

"It's an obvious point but those seem to get lost here." - SharpeXB, 2015

 

Coming on these boards and having discussions with the BOS Defense League is like speaking words in to the biggest, densest black hole in the universe.

If I was writing with that intent in English I'd say "less tendency" or "little tendency"

NO tendency doesn't leave any other interpretation than NO. No is an absolute. Like saying ZERO.

Could be its just vaguely written but hopefully technical guides like this should not be.

The DCS P-51D manual is I belive a direct copy of the original, and not translated. I found cases where the precise wording was a big help.

Don't call it the BoS Defense League. I prefer "Devil's Advocate"

[LukeFF]

Coming on these boards and having discussions with [Edited] is like speaking words in to the biggest, densest black hole in the universe. 

 

Be nice now.  

Edited March 5, 2015 by Bearcat

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Be nice now.  

 

I'm sorry, who are you?

[SharpeXB]

I'm sorry, who are you?

He wrote the Official Manual for RoF and might be writing this one. LukeFF is a long time contributor.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

He wrote the Official Manual for RoF and might be writing this one. LukeFF is a long time contributor.

 

I am aware of who Luke is and frankly, I don't care at all. He contributes a lot of one liners and high horsing... I've been around the block too, pal.  

 

Don't interject if you don't understand the reference.

 

"Hope that helps!  "

Edited March 4, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Touchy

[BlitzPig_EL]

SharpeXB, can you honestly say that the FW 190 in Battle of Stalingrad has no tendency to ground loop?

 

Please stop playing your semantics game and just answer the question truthfully.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

SharpeXB, can you honestly say that the FW 190 in Battle of Stalingrad has no tendency to ground loop?

 

Please stop playing your semantics game and just answer the question truthfully.

With no axe to grind with anyone for me the 190 spins like a son of a gun and the only way I can taxi is locking the tail wheel all the time. I find it unstable in the air a fair bit of the time too. Maybe I just can't handle this particular bird?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Manually, reduce the prop pitch. It solves much of the ground handling problems.

Edited March 5, 2015 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

SharpeXB, can you honestly say that the FW 190 in Battle of Stalingrad has no tendency to ground loop?

 

Please stop playing your semantics game and just answer the question truthfully.

No I didn't say that. Someone else quoted a manual which says that.

Manually, reduce the prop pitch. It solves much of the ground handling problems.

I was curious about that. Do the high rpms ipart too much gyro effect? What do you set it at? Edited March 5, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Touchy

 

Who..? You..?

 

Please, AoA, I need your help! I'm excited for the lecture about how I'm misquoting you. I need another good laugh.

Edited March 5, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[Bearcat]

OK this is yet another 190 thread that has gone south and frankly .. I refuse to edit it any further.. If you want to have these discussions keep the snarky nonsense to a minimum or this one too will be locked.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

OK this is yet another 190 thread that has gone south and frankly .. I refuse to edit it any further.. If you want to have these discussions keep the snarky nonsense to a minimum or this one too will be locked.

 

Might as well just get it over with.

 

If you posted in the first place you know that it isn't going to go anywhere but south.

 

No snarky nonsense intended there.

[GP*]

IBTL

[LukeFF]

I am aware of who Luke is and frankly, I don't care at all. He contributes a lot of one liners and high horsing... I've been around the block too, pal.  

 

Don't interject if you don't understand the reference.

 

"Hope that helps!  "

 

My "be nice now" comment wasn't meant to be some snarky one-liner but an attempt to get the topic back on track. Using blanket names for groups of people who disagree with your opinion is a surefire way to derail a topic and send it to locked-thread land. 

[BlackDevil]

 

Are you laughing at yourself ? I would bet anything, that YOU wouldn't reach the runway with a 190.

[BlackDevil]

Nope. The Fw 190 had tremendous directional stability in reality due to the wide landing gear.

What shows, that physics is not your strength. A wide landing gear does have advantages at touchdown. It is the stability around the longitudinal axis.

 

The stability around the vertical axis is not influenced by the width of the landing gear. You stear with brakes at taxi speed. The wider the wheel is away from the axis, the faster you go into the ground loop, when you brake too hard. With the correct taxi speed and the correct brake input there is no tendency to ground loop at all.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The stability around the vertical axis is not influenced by the width of the landing gear. You stear with brakes at taxi speed. The wider the wheel is away from the axis, the faster you go into the ground loop, when you brake too hard. With the correct taxi speed and the correct brake input there is no tendency to ground loop at all.

Before blaming anybody I suggets you to buy DCS and conduct the tests above. It's not about my physics, it's about the game physics. I'm sure you'll get the picture of what I'm referring to once you actually tried it yourself.

Manually, reduce the prop pitch. It solves much of the ground handling problems.

Another issue due to the broken Kommandogerät. Decreasing the porp pitch gives you a optimal torque/thrist ratio on ground which is good for taxiin and TO but doesn't solve the high ground looping tendency of the airplane, which relates more to crucial physical factors of the FM.

 

Again, before blaming sby's knowlegde, expirience, whatsoever I dvise to make up a test, post it here and let other's compare it with their own conduted ones. That way we can hopefully draw a clear picture. So far most of the input in here is from random guys without any conducted tests or evidence trying to fight the other side with dicrediting arguments made p form nowhere.

[BlackDevil]

Before blaming anybody I suggets you to buy DCS and conduct the tests above.

 

Another issue due to the broken Kommandogerät. Decreasing the porp pitch gives you a optimal torque/thrist ratio on ground which is good for taxiin and TO but doesn't solve the high ground looping tendency of the airplane, which relates more to crucial physical factors of the FM.

 

Did I say the Kommandogerät should change pitch on ground ? Can you please quote that ?

But I know how to stear a heavy taildragger, as I do fly them in RL. And I don't need to buy DCS as I am betatester. (109 and D9 module)

Edited March 5, 2015 by BlackDevil

[BlackDevil]

Did anybody think of the effect of a slippery surface ? You stear by using differential brake. As soon as you got the turn rate you wanted, you stop that turn around the vertical axis by using opposite brake. And here the icy surface will interfere. The faster outer wheel doesn't get the grip to stop the turn. The only way to avoid that is to taxi slow enough.

 

Comparing a 190 D9 on a perfect surface with a A3 on ice shows the quality of this discussion.

Edited March 5, 2015 by BlackDevil

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The issue is not the stop but the induction of the turn. Watch my video above, it turns violently even without and rudder/brake involved.

 

The issue is more inertia/CoM related in a serious matter. Theres no need to assume 777 devs using Nasa science to calculate sth that legitimates this behaviour in any way.

 

Again, I ask you kindly to pls replicate my tests. I'm also abreal pilot and have worked for decent time in the FM buisness to have an impression of whats behind the maths and calculations.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[BlackDevil]

I will do it tonight.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Manually, reduce the prop pitch. It solves much of the ground handling problems.

This does help ty

[BlitzPig_EL]

Lots of posts about how to work around the problem, but still, some still think it is not a problem.

 

It is.

 

The ground handling physics are off, in a major way.  Kinda like you put 1200 BHP on a WW1 aircraft huh?

 

Gee, I wonder why that is?

Edited March 5, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

My "be nice now" comment wasn't meant to be some snarky one-liner but an attempt to get the topic back on track. Using blanket names for groups of people who disagree with your opinion is a surefire way to derail a topic and send it to locked-thread land. 

 

What "groups of people?" I was referring to you, and only you.

 

Continuing an off topic discussion because you want the last word certainly is a way to get a thread locked.

 

This one needed to go a long time ago anyway.

 

Secondly, I didn't see you post an "opinion I disagreed with." I saw another off-topic LukeFF one-liner. 

 

Rama likes this term "Robe of Virtue." I think it applies here.

Edited March 5, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Are you laughing at yourself ? I would bet anything, that YOU wouldn't reach the runway with a 190.

 

You meant me? Why should it matter if i can or can not do it? Does this have anything to do with what we are discussing right now? I guess not.

Unfortunately i have never flown a taildragger so far, our flightclub has only one (1000hp+ aerobatic plane, 1000€+/hour, i am still a student)  hope i will come to this in the future. Nevertheless i am pretty sure, that i wouldn't have any problem what so ever, if i would have spent the time practicing it in real life instead of in game. Pilots back then in WW2 did have a lot less training, especially on the war birds, and they also managed it. 

But still..this has nothing to do with the problem we have in game. 

[SharpeXB]

From the DCS Dora Flight Manual. No I'm not trying to compare sims and yes this is a different aircraft model but it's the only text I have in English. I assume this is a translation of the real book.

 

"3. When taxiing, first unlock the tail wheel, otherwise it will be impossible to make turns. In order to do so push flight stick forward by approximately 3cm.

4. Only after releasing the tail wheel, lock the brakes may be operated for testing purposes, left and right alternatively. Do not operate the brakes for too long.

5. In case the tail wheel does not unlock, it shall be tried to unlock by alternating brake application and simultaneous forward pushing of the flight stick.

6. On line up for takeoff, roll straight ahead for a short distance to ensure the tail wheel is in straight position.

7. The aircraft may have to be taxied below power settings of 1,000 RPM for a short while in order to avoid tire damage through braking heat. Taxiing has to be performed as to keep the usage of brakes down to a minimum; short braking impulses are better than continuous braking."

 

To look at the exact wording. 3 says turning is "impossible" yet it is actually possible to make slight turns with the locked tail wheel. So "turn" in this case must mean good significant turns, 90 or 180 d. Not small steering corrections. The manual here doesn't say why to unlock the wheel other than that you can't turn. No mention of damage although it seems reasonable that putting severe stress on the wheel woud not be good. Keeping brake use to a minimum is standard advice and not really unique to the Dora. "Keep usage to a minimum" does not mean not to use the brakes at all, just don't operate them continuously.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

From the DCS Dora Flight Manual. No I'm not trying to compare sims and yes this is a different aircraft model but it's the only text I have in English. I assume this is a translation of the real book.

 

"3. When taxiing, first unlock the tail wheel, otherwise it will be impossible to make turns. In order to do so push flight stick forward by approximately 3cm.

4. Only after releasing the tail wheel, lock the brakes may be operated for testing purposes, left and right alternatively. Do not operate the brakes for too long.

5. In case the tail wheel does not unlock, it shall be tried to unlock by alternating brake application and simultaneous forward pushing of the flight stick.

6. On line up for takeoff, roll straight ahead for a short distance to ensure the tail wheel is in straight position.

7. The aircraft may have to be taxied below power settings of 1,000 RPM for a short while in order to avoid tire damage through braking heat. Taxiing has to be performed as to keep the usage of brakes down to a minimum; short braking impulses are better than continuous braking."

 

To look at the exact wording. 3 says turning is "impossible" yet it is actually possible to make slight turns with the locked tail wheel. So "turn" in this case must mean good significant turns, 90 or 180 d. Not small steering corrections. The manual here doesn't say why to unlock the wheel other than that you can't turn. No mention of damage although it seems reasonable that putting severe stress on the wheel woud not be good. Keeping brake use to a minimum is standard advice and not really unique to the Dora. "Keep usage to a minimum" does not mean not to use the brakes at all, just don't operate them continuously.

 

Or maybe it means that it is impossible to turn a real 190 with a locked tailwheel..? 

 

The German language typically dictates things very literally.

Edited March 5, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[9./JG27golani79]

Has anyone made a video yet showing nice turns with unlocked tailwheel?

[SharpeXB]

Or maybe it means that it is impossible to turn a real 190 with a locked tailwheel..? 

 

The German language typically dictates things very literally.

"Turn" or "steer"? It is possible to steer the DCS plane with the tail wheel locked. Yes Germans are quite precise, it's the translation that might be the question. Clearly the book says you are supposed to taxi with the wheel unlocked though.

[BlackDevil]

Pilots back then in WW2 did have a lot less training, especially on the war birds, and they also managed it. 

 

Repeating of this nonsense doesn't make it true. Before they stepped into their first warbird, they had many times more training than any airline pilot gets nowadays.

[SharpeXB]

Repeating of this nonsense doesn't make it true. Before they stepped into their first warbird, they had many times more training than any airline pilot gets nowadays.

Yeah it depends on which side and which time in the war. Battle of Britain Spitfire pilots had only 9 hours of training in that plane before going into action. American pilots late in the war had something like 400 hours of total time.

 

Relative to this discussion the Fw190s chief virtue was that it was supposed to be very easy to handle compared to the 109 which in the case of the ground handling here doesn't seem to be the case.

Edited March 5, 2015 by SharpeXB

[6./ZG26_Custard]

From the DCS Dora Flight Manual. No I'm not trying to compare sims and yes this is a different aircraft model but it's the only text I have in English. I assume this is a translation of the real book.

 

"3. When taxiing, first unlock the tail wheel, otherwise it will be impossible to make turns. In order to do so push flight stick forward by approximately 3cm.

4. Only after releasing the tail wheel, lock the brakes may be operated for testing purposes, left and right alternatively. Do not operate the brakes for too long.

5. In case the tail wheel does not unlock, it shall be tried to unlock by alternating brake application and simultaneous forward pushing of the flight stick.

6. On line up for takeoff, roll straight ahead for a short distance to ensure the tail wheel is in straight position.

7. The aircraft may have to be taxied below power settings of 1,000 RPM for a short while in order to avoid tire damage through braking heat. Taxiing has to be performed as to keep the usage of brakes down to a minimum; short braking impulses are better than continuous braking."

 

To look at the exact wording. 3 says turning is "impossible" yet it is actually possible to make slight turns with the locked tail wheel. So "turn" in this case must mean good significant turns, 90 or 180 d. Not small steering corrections. The manual here doesn't say why to unlock the wheel other than that you can't turn. No mention of damage although it seems reasonable that putting severe stress on the wheel woud not be good. Keeping brake use to a minimum is standard advice and not really unique to the Dora. "Keep usage to a minimum" does not mean not to use the brakes at all, just don't operate them continuously.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade and I'm glad you pointed out that this is a different sim from DCS (a very different sim)  but a large number of folks have an issue with the ground handling capabilities of the 190. I personally have problems in the air too and I feel that it can be very snappy/stall happy and unresponsive even at relatively high speed. You can with an awful lot of farting about taxi this aircraft, but its enough to want you to jump out the cockpit and give it a virtual kick. It's one of the few aircraft in this game that I have problems with, but hey what do I know my favourite aircraft in this game is the LaGG-3!

 

In my own personal opinion I think that the flight model on the 190 is for want of a better phrase "not quite there yet"

 

Respect to all and I hope we can avoid....

[SharpeXB]

It is no doubt quite difficult to taxi with the tail wheel unlocked and by all accounts you are supposed to do that in the real plane. The DCS Dora handles easy enough that way and is in fact resistant to turning with the wheel locked.

I am actually using HOTAS buttons for the brakes and it takes a lot of concentration to keep it straight, honestly turning seems easier than trying to keep a straight track.

I can wheel into the revetment well enough with practice.

 

The big question here is, are we supposed to be handing the planes on a slick runway? If that answer is yes then it feels more believable.

To answer, just look at the ground, what do you see? Snow. So maybe that's the answer.

 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Repeating of this nonsense doesn't make it true. Before they stepped into their first warbird, they had many times more training than any airline pilot gets nowadays.

 

Now you are starting to make yourself really ridiculous

[6./ZG26_Custard]

It is no doubt quite difficult to taxi with the tail wheel unlocked and by all accounts you are supposed to do that in the real plane. The DCS Dora handles easy enough that way and is in fact resistant to turning with the wheel locked.

I am actually using HOTAS buttons for the brakes and it takes a lot of concentration to keep it straight, honestly turning seems easier than trying to keep a straight track.

I can wheel into the revetment well enough with practice.

 

The big question here is, are we supposed to be handing the planes on a slick runway? If that answer is yes then it feels more believable.

To answer, just look at the ground, what do you see? Snow. So maybe that's the answer.

Well, when the summer and autumn maps are here we should get the definitive answer should we not?

[SharpeXB]

Well, when the summer and autumn maps are here we should get the definitive answer should we not?

Yes we will certainly know then. I also tried taxiing around off road but it seems the same as far as the looping. I think off the roads you get more friction on the ground.

[BlackDevil]

Now you are starting to make yourself really ridiculous

I should know, what I am talking about

 

..... 80 RL hours (10 !! hours solo) are enough today to fly a A320. Rest is done in cheap fixed simulators and in the end in full flight sims(MPL).

 

The "Friedensausbildung" until end of 43 gave them more than 300 solo hours before entering the 109.