Why Did I Pay For The 190, When I Can't Even Get It Off The Ground?

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Maybe the taxi secret is to use rudder pedals.

[SharpeXB]

Maybe the taxi secret is to use rudder pedals.

It's an obvious point but those can get lost here

Real pilots have rudder pedals with toe brakes and a hand on the throttle. If you have trouble handling the plane on the ground with keys assigned to the brakes, that's part of the reason.

[BlitzPig_EL]

There shouldn't be a "secret".

 

Standard procedures should work properly.

 

They don't.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

If I didn't know better, I'd think that I was driving an F1 car on slicks on a hockey rink.

 

The ground handling is broken, it has been from the start, and as many have said previously, just because YOU can handle things on the ground, does not mean that they are correctly modeled.

 

More difficult does not mean more real.

 

And to clarify, I CAN get FW 190 around on the ground, I have pedals and toe brakes that work. However, as I said, that does not mean it is right.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

[von_Tom]

Conversely, that a person cannot taxi in the FW190 does not mean that the ground handling is broken.

 

Maybe this discussion should wait until the summer map is released then we can see the effect of ice if it has been modelled.

 

von Tom

 

ps This is an interesting document about the A8.  I've no idea what it is as it's English rather than German, or if it is an accurate translation (if that is what it is), but it is a good read. http://www.qattara.it/Documents/fw190a8.pdf

[Quax]

I know it's off topic but back when it was alpha BoS has been advertised with having "state of the art Flight Models" and "very realistic Damage Models". Later it gained the slogan "Hardcore with Passion" as being a hardcore sim that has soft content to introduce the more casual orientated / less expirienced players. Well, times change....

That's clear already, you missed the topic. Taxi ≠ Take Off

 

 

 

 

And he had nothing to complain about the ground handling.

 

 

 

I didn´t miss the topic.  

 

Can you please explain, why you think, your judgement is of more worth than the one of a guy, who did fly the real plane in combat ?  I am really interested in your experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

There shouldn't be a "secret".

 

Standard procedures should work properly.

 

 

 

 

Standard procedures did work.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Quax

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Standard procedures did work.

Than pls show us a video how you do it. If not, well, my data and video are still availabel for you to check and compare.

 

Don't know how sth as obviously physically flawed can be taken as realism, but well that's only good for the devs. Less fixing means more work on new content = more and quicker money. Some seem to desperately support this by denying any bug no matter how obvious reported in this forum which is sad.

 

Maybe I should stop trying it than as well and accept this sim will always be flawed by annoying bugs?

 

And since controller equipment has been brought up: Saitek X52 with Magnet Mod, Modified Saitek Combat Rudder pedals, Freetrack. With that equipment I have no issues taxiing the 109 with unlocked tailwheel with carefull brake and rudder adjustments (seemingly realisticly).

Edited March 4, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[9./JG27golani79]

Than pls show us a video how you do it. If not, well, my data and video are still availabel for you to check and compare.

 

This

 

I´d also like to see a video of someone showing how it´s done right - maybe I´m doing something wrong and could profit from someone who is doing just fine.

[Lusekofte]

I haven't read this topic, but I took off at first try with this bird. Anyone tried the Dora in DCS. If I manage to take off in that I do not know what I did right because next time I try I ground loop or crash.

I really think they did the groundhandeling in a historical way, And to me that is a good thing

Edited March 4, 2015 by LG1.Jaeger

[Guest deleted@1562]

Trying to taxi the A3 the same way like the D9 doesn´t really work out for me - don´t know, maybe I need more practice in BoS with ground handling.

One problem for me though is, that if I tap the brakes just slightly there is often a change of direction (the tail moves way further than intended) - in DCS it works fine tapping the brakes to correct the heading with unlocked tailwheel.

 

The D9 is reacting more like I´d expect the plane to react to my inputs.

 

Can't the different surfaces of the airfields in BoS and DCS have anything to do with that?  I think it plausible that the BoS Stalingrad run/taxiways are more slippery than the DCS ones.

[SharpeXB]

A friend of mine bought a Mercedes AMG and was given driving lessons at Nurburgring as part of the package.

 

After he drove a few laps the instructors told him he should slow it down, as he was not a good enough driver to handle the car at the speeds he was driving.

 

He got insulted, and complained to the Mercedes lead driving instructor about it, but the Mercedes lead watched him do a couple of laps and said he agreed with his instructors, our friend was not a good enough driver and should slow down.

 

He didn't listen, and he wrecked his car taking a turn too fast.

 

To this day, he still says that Mercedes AMG was a crap car and he is glad the crash didnt happen on a motorway which it easily could have. He'll never buy a Mercedes again, he says.

 

And the moral of this story is...

A perfect analogy for these issues!

 

Take it one step farther. Imagine your friend driving the AMG via remote from a PC with some webcam in the drivers seat and a little cheap plastic steering wheel with no force feedback.

[sallee]

A friend of mine bought a Mercedes AMG and was given driving lessons at Nurburgring as part of the package.

 

After he drove a few laps the instructors told him he should slow it down, as he was not a good enough driver to handle the car at the speeds he was driving.

 

He got insulted, and complained to the Mercedes lead driving instructor about it, but the Mercedes lead watched him do a couple of laps and said he agreed with his instructors, our friend was not a good enough driver and should slow down.

 

He didn't listen, and he wrecked his car taking a turn too fast.

 

To this day, he still says that Mercedes AMG was a crap car and he is glad the crash didnt happen on a motorway which it easily could have. He'll never buy a Mercedes again, he says.

 

And the moral of this story is...

Don't buy a Mercedes?

[SharpeXB]

Than pls show us a video how you do it.

 

Challenge accepted. I almost got it this morning. Taxiing straight is fine, turning 180 means a very light tap on the inside brake and then opposite rudder I think. Throttle is nearly idle. There's a comment in one of those manuals posted or maybe DCS about not turning with a fixed wheel. I think as soon as you start the turn let go of the brake. I actually use HOTAS buttons for the brakes despite having pedals because I'd rather assign that axis to zoom which is more useful. I do use R and L toe brakes in X-Plane.

[SCG_Neun]

Listen...first off, don't panic.....there is help out there  for guys that can't get it up.  I mean....now me personally.....well I never had any problem getting it up...  ..Wait a minute...you paid for it...and you still can't get it up....Oh that is a problem....  (The 190 is a bit of a challenge....)

Edited March 4, 2015 by JagdNeun

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Beyond words that there are still people around who think the ground handling is right. Some people seem to ignore everything around them. (just to clarify, i had never any problems to taxi with it - with the clear knowledge that i would have killed the undercarriage in real life probably every time i do it)

I also have the Dora in DCS, and this plane feels exactly like it should. Taxiing with unlocked tailwheel (takes some practise), takeoff with locked tailwheel. Anyone who says they are "the same" clearly doesn't have the game, or didn't spend enough time to learn taxiing in DCS. In DCS it's possible to be done right - in BoS not. 

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Ok let's be productive now. No matter if the ground handling is porked or not. Let's share our techniques that are working in the current game version.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Ok let's be productive now. No matter if the ground handling is porked or not. Let's share our techniques that are working in the current game version.

 

You are right.

My procedure:

 

First keeping the tailwheel unlocked, ~30% throttle and full right rudder, playing humming top till my aircraft points onto the spot where i want to go (knowing that this would have broken my right landing gear)

Second locking tailwheel, ~40% throttle and using the brakes to stay in line, or doing slight directional adjustments (knowing that this would have broken my tailwheel, and overheated my brakes)

 

If you are not at your target location yet, start again with "First". With pedals this is foolproof.

[Capt_Stubing]

Totally agree. 

 

I flew the 190 for the first time over the weekend.  It's ground handling is a complete joke. Worst plane in the sim in it's ground handling.  Sure would not expect that with it's wonderful wide track undercarriage.

 

It could be the poster child for a drunk driving simulator.

I think it's funny when folks give you advice on the technique used in ground handling. The sim is broken when it comes to ground handling period. The FW should be one of the more forgiving planes to handle on the ground because it does have a very wide track landing gear setup.

 

The ground loops are insane. You have to use a decent amount of power just to get the bird rolling and you have a very good chance of ground looping even with rudder and differential braking which is wrong. The FW in this sim is able to do multiple ground loops even when cutting the throttle. Total rubbish.

 

Having flown tail draggers in real life this is far from the real thing. It's not a technique issue.

You are right.

My procedure:

 

First keeping the tailwheel unlocked, ~30% throttle and full right rudder, playing humming top till my aircraft points onto the spot where i want to go (knowing that this would have broken my right landing gear)

Second locking tailwheel, ~40% throttle and using the brakes to stay in line, or doing slight directional adjustments (knowing that this would have broken my tailwheel, and overheated my brakes)

 

If you are not at your target location yet, start again with "First". With pedals this is foolproof.

If this is what you have to do... then it doesn't represent how it's done in real life.

Edited March 4, 2015 by 14./JG5CaptStubing

[JtD]

The real plane had "no tendency to ground loop".

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Double check the trim before combat.  For me it seems to set at 2 (or something - not at my gaming pc so can't check) when you start i.e. not in a neutral position.  If your trim is out of whack that could cause control issues.

 

von Tom

Thanks for that, I will give it a try!

[6./ZG26_Custard]

This weasel obviously got fed up with the handling characteristics of the 190!

 

[SharpeXB]

The real plane had "no tendency to ground loop".

The flight manual posted above says "possible ground looping" therefore the plane can ground loop

Edited March 4, 2015 by SharpeXB

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Another comparison test you might practise and compare with. It deas with the "natural" directional stability of the Bf 109 G-2 and the Fw 190 inagme.

 

Procedure:

1. Lock tailwheel

2. Apply throttle

3. Counter the torque with rudder and little brake to avoid turning

4. Accelerating to fast taxi speed (~50km/h)

5. cut throttle and wait till RPM reaches min

6. center rudder, cut brake power and unlock the tailwheel

 

Bf 109:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMOcxGNQWw

Result: Plane behaves respectively stable at the rollout. SLight turn induced due to idle torque and probably piloting error, though without ground look tendency.

 

Fw 190:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5hAP0-1YKM

-> Result: Instant ground loop with high angular speed and acceleration.

 

What does that have to do with taxiing you may ask? Much. This shows the natural tendency of the airplane to ground loop at min directinal influrences. If you want to turn to the right for exmaple with unlocked tailwheel the tendency to groudn loop is much stronger due to brake usage, higher engine torque due to increased RPM and rudder creating a strong momentum.

 

Comparison to DCS: In DCS it's the other way round. The Fw 190 hdnles quite gentle wiht unlocked tialwheel and requires decent brake usage to induce a turn, though it can snap back in form of a ground loop if brakes are abused / used for too long. The Bf 109 on the other hand rather likes to snake around with unlocked tailwheel and requires constant left-right-brake corrections to stay on course. At high taxi speeds it starts to ground loop violently once the tailwheel is unlocked.

 

Note: You may have noticed that I couldn't keep the 109 perfectly in line at first druign acceleration. That's because I executed this test with unlocked tailwheel from he beginning, which wasn't even barely possible with the 190.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

The real plane had "no tendency to ground loop".

 

"no tendency to ground loop".

 

 "no tendency"

 

"tendency"

 

 

The flight manual posted above says "possible ground looping" therefore the plane can ground loop

 

 "possible ground looping"

 

"possible"

 

"Yeah... I'll take six of that one and a half dozen of the other..." 

[Capt_Stubing]

The flight manual posted above says "possible ground looping" therefore the plane can ground loop

It's fair to say ANY tail dragger can ground loop. What we have for the FW is over exaggerated by a great deal for whatever reason.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

The flight manual posted above says "possible ground looping" therefore the plane can ground loop

 

for anyone who can read: "during takeoff"    

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Wait a min.. Are you all saying different pilots get different results?

[BlackDevil]

for anyone who can read: "during takeoff"    

 

 

oh my goodness

 

as soon as you taxi faster than taxi speed   - check RL 190 vids, it is about walking speed - you are bound for a ground loop. On icy runways you wouldn´t be able to taxi a 190 in RL. Here you want a realistic sim, and complain about realistic physics.

Edited March 4, 2015 by BlackDevil

[SharpeXB]

for anyone who can read: "during takeoff"

The manual there doesn't mention taxiing or I didn't find the section. If the plane can ground loop during takeoff it can certainly do it taxiing.

The real plane had "no tendency to ground loop".

Emphasis on "no" No means none. "Little" tendency to ground loop? Perhaps?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

You should better look for a "Bedienungsvorschrift". The "Handbuch" posted above is a very technical manual with little to no information about plane handling and pilot instructions. It's job is to give technical information about the compoments, not to tell "how" and "when" the plane tends to ground loop.

 

The excert I posted is out of a Bedienungsvorschrift and it says what is definetly forbidden to do when taxiing the 190. If we encountered the same concequences ingame from abusing brakes and overstressing the locking mechanism the physical issue would be much more emphasized.

as soon as you taxi faster than taxi speed   - check RL 190 vids, it is about walking speed - you are bound for a ground loop. On icy runways you wouldn´t be able to taxi a 190 in RL. Here you want a realistic sim, and complain about realistic physics.

Nope. The Fw 190 had tremendous directional stability in reality due to the wide landing gear. More than many compareable fighters of it's time. Ice isn't nessecarily slippery either. In cold winter ocnditions like Stalingrad you'd rather encounter rought ice which offers pretty decent grip for rubber wheel tires. Also We are flying on seemingly heavily used runways ingame, means the ice should be roughted up even more.

[sallee]

This weasel obviously got fed up with the handling characteristics of the 190!

 

I was looking at that picture yesterday. Absolutely amazing.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

On icy runways you wouldn´t be able to taxi a 190 in RL

    

[Knopfler]

On icy runways you wouldn´t be able to taxi a 190 in RL. 

 

 

[JtD]

The manual there doesn't mention taxiing or I didn't find the section. If the plane can ground loop during takeoff it can certainly do it taxiing.

Emphasis on "no" No means none. "Little" tendency to ground loop? Perhaps?

The manual says "no".

[SharpeXB]

The manual says "no".

That manual says "possible" although as someone just pointed out its a technical book and not how to really handle the plane. It does say the tail wheel fully locks and isn't steerable like the P-51D is when it "locks"

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I was looking at that picture yesterday. Absolutely amazing.

It is and that weasel looks in control and on final approach    

[sallee]

He looks to me as if he is regretting his impulsive act (and sh*tting himself).

[6./ZG26_Custard]

He looks to me as if he is regretting his impulsive act (and sh*tting himself).

He is hanging on for dear life lol

[JtD]

That manual says "possible" although as someone just pointed out its a technical book and not how to really handle the plane. It does say the tail wheel fully locks and isn't steerable like the P-51D is when it "locks"

I'm referring to the pilot manual, which I quoted. Twice.

[JimTM]

I haven't read this topic, but I took off at first try with this bird. Anyone tried the Dora in DCS. If I manage to take off in that I do not know what I did right because next time I try I ground loop or crash.

I really think they did the groundhandeling in a historical way, And to me that is a good thing

Re. the Dora takeoff, try keeping the stick back longer and let the speed build up. Then smoothly move the stick forward. The rudder will be much more effective to counter any wandering tenancy.

 

Hope that helps a little.

[Bussard_x]

I wonder what references the developers used to model taxi only with locked tailwheel.