Why Did I Pay For The 190, When I Can't Even Get It Off The Ground?

[AbortedMan]

Did someone really say "there is no ice"?!

 

It's -15c in these missions.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I wasn't discrediting ur test, I realise that shows up the error u are talking about quite well. I was just saying that it doesn't massively bother me as u are not likely to be operating the plane like that

[arno_nym]

Don't know if it counts as reference but the DCS 190 behaves on ground pretty much like the BOS version, except it is much harder to get the DCS Dora from the ground in one piece

It has been stated a couple of times.. Lock the tail wheel, use differential brakes on taxiing. On take off, release the stick gently when reaching 100 km/h, use rudder (no more braking at this point)  and let it fly away from the ground on its own  (dont pull too much). Actually its pretty easy, and as both sims feel similar, I guess they got it quite right...

Edited March 3, 2015 by sy-subrc

[BlitzPig_EL]

Why would they even bother with a castering tail wheel on the real 190 if it had to be locked at all times when on the ground?

 

The modeling in the sim is patently absurd, you guys have to stop apologizing for obvious faults in this sim.  Really you do.

 

And you have to remember that just because one of us is critical of some aspect of the title, it does not mean we are haterz and want the sim to fail.

[SR-F_Winger]

Once you get the hang of it the 190s groundhandling is just marvellous IMO. Just lock the tail or release it if you want to make pretty tight turns or practically "turn on the spot".

[Danziger]

Why did you pay for it if you can't get it off the ground?

[DD_Arthur]

Once i got the engine started, in the 190, the stick goes in the belly, and don't release the pressure until I'm going down the runway at over 100km/h. All the turns and taxing is done with rudder and brakes, while the stick is fully back (tail wheel locked).

Got used to it now now. However, that doesn't mean it's right.

 

Yep, thats my experience.  Now the Yak....oh lordy!  

[9./JG27golani79]

Don't know if it counts as reference but the DCS 190 behaves on ground pretty much like the BOS version, [...]

 

I don´t have any problems at all with taxiing the D9 in DCS - the A3 in BoS feels a hell different to me though.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It has been stated a couple of times.. Lock the tail wheel, use differential brakes on taxiing. On take off, release the stick gently when reaching 100 km/h, use rudder (no more braking at this point)  and let it fly away from the ground on its own  (dont pull too much). Actually its pretty easy, and as both sims feel similar, I guess they got it quite right...

So does it everyone else and it's wrong. This has been forbidden in the Fw 190 manual as it would cause crake overheating and damage the tailwheel mechanism.

Realism ≠ "I can taxi it fine ingame" <-  I just care for the first

Edited March 3, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[LukeFF]

They certainly fell from the sky, no?

 

Well, Nowotny didn't fall from the sky in a 190, so... 

[BlackDevil]

There has been a problem with ground handling all along, and it has not been improved over time.

 

Please just state:  " I have a problem with ground handling all along", instead "There has been ..."

 

That would make clear, that it is your opinion and not make believe, it would be everybodies opinion. Thanks

 

 

I don´t have any problems at all with taxiing the D9 in DCS - the A3 in BoS feels a hell different to me though.

 

The D9 is longer and therefore more stable on ground and in the air. Otherwise I don´t feel any more difference.

You taxi both, like any taildragger with unsteared tailwheel, only by use of differential brakes.

 

 

Once you get the hang of it the 190s groundhandling is just marvellous IMO. Just lock the tail or release it if you want to make pretty tight turns or practically "turn on the spot".

 

You are right. If the guys would spend the time for training, instead of complaining, they could do it as well

 

Most common mistakes:  - taxi too fast, turn rate too fast, senseless use of rudder, no S curves to look ahead etc

Edited March 3, 2015 by BlackDevil

[SharpeXB]

Don't know if it counts as reference but the DCS 190 behaves on ground pretty much like the BOS version, except it is much harder to get the DCS Dora from the ground in one piece

It has been stated a couple of times.. Lock the tail wheel, use differential brakes on taxiing. On take off, release the stick gently when reaching 100 km/h, use rudder (no more braking at this point) and let it fly away from the ground on its own (dont pull too much). Actually its pretty easy, and as both sims feel similar, I guess they got it quite right...

I feel the same way about the DCS warbirds and BoS

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

DCS Fw 190 taxis way more stable. Once oyu go straight and dont touch the throttle / rudder you can unlock the tailwheel without any vicious ground loop overcoming you out of sudden. The DCS Dora feels heavier and does not epsond to brake action as rapidly as in BoS. It has a decent inertia preventing you from oversteering it in a way it happens in BoS.

 

I've flown the DCS Fw 190 for long time and agree they dont feel the same. Neither on groudn nor in the air. The only thing they have in common is the tail wheel locking mechanism, which works identical in both sims. Apart form that, the mass/inertia, ground resisdence, brake power ect feel clearly different to me. Not only because the Dora is heavier and longer but because of completely different physics.

 

Not to say DCS has it 100% plausible but it's way more than BoS. The 190 shouldn't have to be treated with kid gloves as it is currently.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[BlackDevil]

 

Not to say DCS has it 100% plausible but it's way more than BoS.

 

I feel it just the other way around. So it is kind of subjective.

 

Not only because the Dora is heavier and longer but because of completely different physics.

 

Surely not.

[9./JG27golani79]

The D9 is longer and therefore more stable on ground and in the air. Otherwise I don´t feel any more difference.

You taxi both, like any taildragger with unsteared tailwheel, only by use of differential brakes.

 

Trying to taxi the A3 the same way like the D9 doesn´t really work out for me - don´t know, maybe I need more practice in BoS with ground handling.

One problem for me though is, that if I tap the brakes just slightly there is often a change of direction (the tail moves way further than intended) - in DCS it works fine tapping the brakes to correct the heading with unlocked tailwheel.

 

The D9 is reacting more like I´d expect the plane to react to my inputs.

Edited March 3, 2015 by golani79

[[TWB]Ewertsp]

 

190 is easier to taxi than the 109, straight foward differential brakes and lock/unlock tailwheel use. Only the 111 is easier than that. The lagg and la5 are the ones bad at taxiing.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Read it carefully and compare it with your taxi method ingame.

 

Again, Realism ≠ "It's easy to taxi/I can taxi it fine"  Infact you can abuse brakes and tail wheel lock to manouvre it like a car which would overheat your brakes and crack your tail wheel mechanism in reality. If you approve that because you can handle it fine and everybody else has to live with a unrealistic FM fine. Don't try to discredit guys who expect more form a flight simulator.

 

That said I wont repeat myself again. The ingame taxi behaviour is historically and physically not correct, no matter how well A or B can perform with it. Unfortunately the "But I can perform well with this plane so it's correctly modeled" arguments will never vanish out of FM disussions.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Willy__]

I dont know if I got used or what, but I can taxi the 190 no problem whatsoever, no ground loops at all. I can do 90 or 180 degree turns with little to no problem. Just remember to use the brakes! I use a lot more differential brakes than the rudder itself, along with locking the tailwheel almost 100% of the time. Maybe the fact that I use Rudder Pedals to control the rudder and the brakes helps more than I thought. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by istruba

[von_Greiff]

....my 5 pence!

 

"Flugzeugführer" sagten, die FW hebt ab wie ein nasser Sack!!!

 

for all u yanks and tommys 'round here ..."Flugzeugführer" used to say the FW takes off lke a wet sack!

PS: I bought it! I fly it!

 

yours

v.Greiff

 

 

88w9wumf.jpg

 

....nothing wrong about it!

Edited March 3, 2015 by von_Greiff

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

The ingame taxi behaviour is historically and physically not correct, no matter how well A or B can perform with it. Unfortunately the "But I can perform well with this plane so it's correctly modeled" arguments will never vanish out of FM disussions

+1(000) 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

And unless u can clearly show with evidence that is very hard for even the devs to get, some physical proof nobody is correct. I see there are some strange behaviour but often people do strange stuff or really push the envelope to get these resul. For the most part imo the ground handling is fine, yes if pushed u will find in accuracies..........

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

And unless u can clearly show with evidence that is very hard for even the devs to get, some physical proof nobody is correct. [...]For the most part imo the ground handling is fine, yes if pushed u will find in accuracies

 

I wouldn't call it "push", when you try to taxi like it was supposed to be done in real life (no tailwheel lock, barely usage of brakes). In game you have to do exactly the opposite, to do it successful (lock tailwheel and use brakes). German data clearly says this overheats the brakes. Think that's more then very clear evidence(/data/source) that it's not right in game (beside the already mentioned obvious facts, where you don't need evidence, to understand if it's right or wrong)

[widgeon]

 

 

 

Read it carefully and compare it with your taxi method ingame.

 

 

 

 

 

That said I wont repeat myself again.

 

 

 

 

   I'll repeat it for you...... 

 

In real life your NOT supposed to taxi with the tail wheel locked.  

 

Yes, we NEED to lock it in this sim, thats the point. 

 

I take it that the above excerpt is from the  operators manual?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thank you gents for simply stating the facts.

 

Not opinion, but fact.

 

I now await the 2+2=5 squads appearance to discredit the official manual as mere pilot's accounts because nothing can be wrong in this sim, because we all know that more difficult is de-facto more real...

 

 

 

[Feathered_IV]

There I'd at least one FW-190 flying today, plus a half dozen new builds with modern engines. Perhaps someone would like to get on the phone and ask how they handle in the ground?

[Leaf]

"The Fw 190 is as unrealistic on the ground as it is in the air."    

 

Discuss.

[GP*]

I think we are quite clearly saying u lock the wheel to go in a straight line unlock for a turn

 

Oh really?

 

Exhibit A:

 

Pull the stick back and power to 35%,  once rolling at a good sprint you can navigate the taxiways without unlocking the back wheel by applying different pressure to left or right pedal. Flight rudder pedals help tremendously with this.

 

 

 

Exhibit B:

 

Once i got the engine started, in the 190, the stick goes in the belly, and don't release the pressure until I'm going down the runway at over 100km/h. All the turns and taxing is done with rudder and brakes, while the stick is fully back (tail wheel locked).

 

 

 

Exhibit C (at least Stab acknowledges how unrealistic this is):

 

I'm currently in the process of reporting th directional instable roll behaviour of the 190 with unlocked tailwheel. If anybody here knows some refference for it pls pass it ot me so I can include it in my report.

 

I agree the unlocked tailwheel behaviour just seems physically absurd. It's a real downer for me as I love to start up my planes and taxi to the TO point which is always painfull in the 190.

 

The only way to taxi it sucessfully is with constantly locked tailwheel and heavy brake usage, which apparently is just the opposite of what the manual instructed. But that's obviously a different story...

 

 

 

And my favorite, Exhibit D:

 

Not saying it's right but it's not exactly hard once u know to put the stick back + use a bit of breaks

 

 

Look at the author -- it's you!

 

That's what makes this equally hilarious:

 

I think we are quite clearly saying u lock the wheel to go in a straight line unlock for a turn

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I see the debate is still raging about the realism of this. Allow me, please: it is completely unrealistic to need to taxi with the tailwheel locked in order to make turns of any rate. Congratulations on figuring out how to accomplish this in game with the current modeling; no one is impressed with your gaming skillz. 

 

We need to end this "I can do x in game, which means it's realistic as is; your skills must be lacking" nonsense. It's a huge hurdle in the face of getting this sim even closer to an appropriate level of realism.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Prefontaine

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Oh really?

 

Exhibit A:

 

 

 

 

Exhibit B:

 

 

 

 

Exhibit C (at least Stab acknowledges how unrealistic this is):

 

 

 

 

And my favorite, Exhibit D:

 

 

 

Look at the author -- it's you!

 

That's what makes this equally hilarious:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I see the debate is still raging about the realism of this. Allow me, please: it is completely unrealistic to need to taxi with the tailwheel locked in order to make turns of any rate. Congratulations on figuring out how to accomplish this in game with the current modeling; no one is impressed with your gaming skillz. 

 

We need to end this "I can do x in game, which means it's realistic as is; your skills must be lacking" nonsense. It's a huge hurdle in the face of getting this sim even closer to an appropriate level of realism.

I find this aircraft to be a bitch on the ground and in the air, I can take off and land pretty well but I have been engaged in fairly sharp turns at 400km not throwing her about or yanking wildly at the controls and literally lose control for no apparent reason and she noses down or starts to spin. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? I can handle all the other aircraft in this game relatively well and don't seem to have the same issues I have with the 190. And as for the tail wheel business It's already all been said. 

[Marauder]

I can drive a car that has lost a wheel. That doesn't mean the car is OK. Neither is the Fw ground handling.

[heinkill]

A friend of mine bought a Mercedes AMG and was given driving lessons at Nurburgring as part of the package.

 

After he drove a few laps the instructors told him he should slow it down, as he was not a good enough driver to handle the car at the speeds he was driving.

 

He got insulted, and complained to the Mercedes lead driving instructor about it, but the Mercedes lead watched him do a couple of laps and said he agreed with his instructors, our friend was not a good enough driver and should slow down.

 

He didn't listen, and he wrecked his car taking a turn too fast.

 

To this day, he still says that Mercedes AMG was a crap car and he is glad the crash didnt happen on a motorway which it easily could have. He'll never buy a Mercedes again, he says.

 

And the moral of this story is...

[9./JG27golani79]

Maybe someone who thinks groundhandling is fine should do a video where it is shown how the 190 is taxied with unlocked tailwheel doing controlled turns so we can practice it.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I take it that the above excerpt is from the  operators manual

It's from "Fw-190 A-1 Bedienungsvorschrift - FL"

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/germany/focke-wulf/fw190/fw-190-a-1-bedienungsvorschrift-fl.html

 

Rought translation:

 

Attention!                                                                                                                                                      2. Departure

While rolling along a kurve elevator must not be fully pulled!                                                                   for Takeoff

Check your brakes while rolling. Brakes should drag well and not jam.

Brakes must not be used for too long due to the ocurring overheating of the wheel mount.

Turning on one wheel is forbidden!

 

 

We need to end this "I can do x in game, which means it's realistic as is; your skills must be lacking" nonsense. It's a huge hurdle in the face of getting this sim even closer to an appropriate level of realism.

Maybe someone who thinks groundhandling is fine should do a video where it is shown how the 190 is taxied with unlocked tailwheel doing controlled turns so we can practice it.

 

Take all my "Yes"

Edited March 4, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[heinkill]

 

This is a new build I think, not a restored FW190. So not historical.

 

This is a restored 190, the only one I think. Historical?

 

 

H

Edited March 4, 2015 by heinkill

[9./JG27golani79]

Yeah .. nice video - and now?

 

When I said someone who thinks groundhandling is fine should do a video where taxiing with unlocked tailwheel is shown I actually meant an ingame video and not a real life video ..

[Quax]

 

The modeling in the sim is patently absurd, you guys have to stop apologizing for obvious faults in this sim.

 

 

This flight sim forums never stop to amaze me. People who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, act like they know eveything better than anybody else.

 

 

This guy does have some experience:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And he had nothing to complain about the ground handling. BTW, the take off in the 190 has been done with stick back, lift off in three point attitude. The replicas have a totally different balance, as no weapons are installed. Therefore they take off in the  standard way.

 

But I am sure enough guys here know it better. 

 

 

 

PS:   @Heinkill:  Did anybody pay attention to the taxi speed shown in your videos ? Surely not. And they are taxiing on grass and not on ice. 

 

         @blitzPig : http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14008-slipping-109/?p=221535   same same

 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Quax

[sallee]

Difficult to tell from that second video, but what seems interesting is that it appears that not a huge amount of power is being used to get the thing moving...

[heinkill]

I like the fact people seem to ascribe an opinion to those videos, when there was none. I have no opinion on this topic of FW190 historical accuracy.

 

I do have an opinion about the general topic of historical accuracy in this sim though.

 

The devs describe this numerous times, in numerous places as a 'flight game', and make pains to point out it is not a hardcore flight sim.

 

Accusing it of not being historically accurate is like accusing a pig of not being a cow because you prefer beef.

 

H

[von_Tom]

I find this aircraft to be a bitch on the ground and in the air, I can take off and land pretty well but I have been engaged in fairly sharp turns at 400km not throwing her about or yanking wildly at the controls and literally lose control for no apparent reason and she noses down or starts to spin. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? I can handle all the other aircraft in this game relatively well and don't seem to have the same issues I have with the 190. And as for the tail wheel business It's already all been said. 

 

 

Double check the trim before combat.  For me it seems to set at 2 (or something - not at my gaming pc so can't check) when you start i.e. not in a neutral position.  If your trim is out of whack that could cause control issues.

 

von Tom

Edited March 4, 2015 by von_Tom

[sallee]

I was making an observation, not ascribing an opinion (if by "people" you meant me!) I thought it was interesting and different from the experience in game. Applying excessive power in the real thing might have the same effect as in the game.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The devs describe this numerous times, in numerous places as a 'flight game', and make pains to point out it is not a hardcore flight sim.

 

Accusing it of not being historically accurate is like accusing a pig of not being a cow because you prefer beef.

I know it's off topic but back when it was alpha BoS has been advertised with having "state of the art Flight Models" and "very realistic Damage Models". Later it gained the slogan "Hardcore with Passion" as being a hardcore sim that has soft content to introduce the more casual orientated / less expirienced players. Well, times change....

 

BTW, the take off in the 190 has been done with stick back, lift off in three point attitude. The replicas have a totally different balance, as no weapons are installed. Therefore they take off in the  standard way.

 

But I am sure enough guys here know it better. 

That's clear already, you missed the topic. Taxi ≠ Take Off

Edited March 4, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka