Custom ammunition belts and greater variety of ammunition types

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I went through all the suggestions and I was surprised that there was no suggestion to give the players ability to customize the ammunition belts used in their aircraft an connected with it need to increase the variety of ammunition types in BoS. 

I would like to show the possible ammunition types basing on the sets we have now and as I have a very good source for the Soviet ammunition types, the example will be taken from USSR machines. The following armament types I decided to present as an example for extension - 20 mm Shvak and 23 mm VYa-23 mm cannons and 12.7 mm Berezin machine gun.
 

This is what we have available - a mix of 1:1 of AP and HE round of unknown type for Shvak.

 

 

To start from the Shvak. 

First types of the ammunition used by the Soviet Union in their 20 mm Shvak cannons were the OF and OFZ projectiles. They were intended to destroy unarmoured targets with fragments and blast and to ignite gasoline in unprotected fuel tanks. OF and OFZ projectiles were only made prior to World War II but were found in belts still in a year 1944 or 1945.

From the outside it was not possible to distinguish the OFZ rounds from the OF cartridges. Both types use the same projectile body and the OFZ only differs from the OF in having an incendiary charge located under the high explosive filler. The latter originally consisted of Tetryl, but from 1939 the 20mm projectiles were filled with GTT (75% RDX, 12.5% TNT, 12.5% Tetryl). The first 20mm OF and OFZ projectiles were fitted with the MG-3 point detonating nose fuze developed by designer N. F. Solovyev. In late 1936 the MG-3 was replace by the MG-201 nose fuze, which was also developed by N. F. Solovyev. It had a

centrifugal safety mechanism to provide a certain degree of bore safety. But still some in-bore detonations occurred with this fuze. Nevertheless, the dates on MG-201 specimens prove that this fuze was used until 1940. 

On November 25th 1941 an increased production of 20mm projectiles was demanded by the Soviet High Command. During the same year the High Explosive Incendiary OZ projectile without fragmentation grooves replaced in production the OF and OFZ projectiles. The OZ was the main high explosive round during World War II and contained a considerably greater quantity of high explosive filler. Three different filler versions may be encountered: The earliest filler type consisted of 3.4gm incendiary composition ZZh-49 or DU-5 that was topped with 2.8gm GTT high explosive. In February 1942 the upper GTT pellet was replaced by the newly developed A-IX-2. This means that the incendiary composition was topped by 2.64gm A-IX-2 in the second version. Somewhat later the entire projectile was loaded with a total of 5.6gm A-IX-2, which is the final version. The OZ projectile is usually equipped with the K-6 nose fuze, designed by P. G. Shchegolev, which has an improved bore safety. This is an instantaneous action, point-detonating nose fuze that operates reliably at different striking velocities even when encountering the thin skin of an aircraft. 

 

The High Explosive Incendiary Tracer OZT projectile was developed in the end of 1942 and was approved for series production by order No. 2891, dated February 14th 1943. It can be identified easily by the tracer stud, which slightly protrudes from the base of the projectile. This stud may be shorter or longer, depending on maker and date. The OZT projectile provides a bright red trace for a distance of up to 800 – 1,000m. Because the tracer also leads into the projectile body, the latter contains somewhat less high explosive payload than the OZ shell. Two different filler versions may be encountered: The

early type consisted of 1.5gm incendiary composition ZZh-49 or DU-5 topped with 1.3gm A-IX-2 high explosive. Later the entire projectile was loaded with a total of 4.13gm A-IX-2, which comes in two separate pellets secured by cardboard washers. During WWII, the OZT projectile was fitted with the K-6 nose fuze.

 

During May 1941 the series production of 20mm Armour Piercing Incendairy BZ projectiles was started. The BZ consists of a hardened steel core held inside a mild steel body. The first types were equipped with a duralumin nose-cap screwed onto the projectile body.

The performance of the Soviet 20 mm ammunition->
When hitting the 0.9 - 1.5mm thick duralumin sheet skin of an aircraft wing (wing thickness between 90 and 280mm), the OZ projectile creates an entrance hole measuring 150x160mm and an exit hole measuring 160x165mm. The projectile fragments may destroy control rods, hydraulic conduits, electrical cables or the cooling system of the aircraft engine for example. Additionally, the OZ projectile with K-6M nose fuze has some armour piercing capability. It defeats 7mm of homogeneous armour at a distance of 200m and at a striking angle of 90°. The 20mm BZ projectile defeats 16mm of homogeneous armour at a striking angle of 65° and at a range of 200m. At a distance of 400m and at an angle of 90° the projectile still penetrates 20mm of armour. It ignites gasoline in protected fuel tanks.

 

Same with Berezin machine gun and VYa-23 mm cannon, a mix of 1:1 of AP and HE round of unknown type.

 

 

There were four types of ammunition used in VYa-23 mm cannon, which was by the way later used in NS-23 cannon. There was OZ which was High Explosive Incendiary round, OZT being High Explosive Incendiary Tracer, BZ round being Armor Piercing Incendiary round and LP which was simple training projectile. 

The first projectile introduced for the VYa aircraft cannon was a fragmentation shell. It was initially filled with TNT and fuzed with the K-20 nose fuze. This fuze was developed by P. G. Shchegolev at plant No. 4 and was based on the 20mm nose fuze K-6. The K-20 is highly sensitive and is fired instantly when encountering a 0.5mm thick cardboard sheet. From late 1940 until the beginning of 1941 this projectile was improved by introducing different fillers: The first high explosive filler variant consisted of a composition of PETN and TNT and was loaded on top of a pressed pellet of RR-1 incendiary composition, creating the OZ projectile. Somewhat later, the OZ projectile was filled with GTT and had a pellet of DU-5 incendiary composition at the bottom of the shell. From February 1942, all OZ projectiles were filled with A-IX-2 high explosive incendiary composition.

 

To meet an Air Force requirement, a 23mm fragmentation incendiary tracer projectile OZT was developed at the beginning of 1944. With this projectile aiming the aircraft cannon was supposed to become easier and more convenient. During the first test two versions of OZT projectiles were presented: One with a self-destruct mechanism that detonated the projectile on burnout of the tracer and one

without that feature. Because of the unreliable operation of the self-destruct mechanism, the second version was preferred. The OZT projectile is filled with a powerful A-IX-2 high explosive incendiary composition and therefore has the same blast and incendiary effect as the OZ shell.

 

 

The BZ armour piercing incendiary projectile contains a hardened steel core with an incendiary filler inside the crimped windshield cap.

 

 

Performance of the 23 mm VYa-23 cannon -> 

When hitting the 0.9 - 1.5mm thick duralumin skin of an aircraft wing, the OZ and OZT projectiles create an entrance opening of 260mm diameter and an exit opening of 500mm diameter. The tracer outlines the trajectory of the projectile from 100 - 150m in front of the muzzle to 1,200m downrange. It burns with a bright rose colour for 1.0 - 1.8 seconds. The BZ armour piercing incendiary projectile defeats 25mm of homogeneous armour at a distance of 400m and a striking angle of 90°. It ignites gasoline in protected fuel tanks.

 

 

And finally the 12.7 mm Berezin machine gun. There were about 11 types of the ammunition used during the World War II in Berezin machines guns; B-30 which was Armor Piercing round, B-32 an Armor Piercing Incendiary round, T-38 Tracer round, BZT Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer round, BZF 45 Armor Piercing Incendiary round, BS-41 Armor Piercing Incendiary round, MD and MD-45 High Explosive rounds and MDZ-46 High Explosive Incendiary round.  

A typical ammunition belt for the UB machine gun consisted of a 1:1:1 mixture of B-32, BZF-46 and MDZ-3 rounds but other variations were often found.

 

Generally, the B-30 and B-32 bullets are conventional in design and consist of a gilding metal clad steel envelope with a lead jacket and a hardened steel core. Instead of lead, the tip of the B-32 bullet is filled with incendiary composition. The B-30 bullet has a black coloured tip, whereas the B-32 bullet is identified by a black tip with a red band below.

 

The BZT bullet is of conventional design and has a small diameter tracer located behind the steel core. The tracer is accommodated inside a steel bushing, which provides the desired weight and shape of the

bullet. The tracer is closed to the rear with a steel washer that slightly protrudes from the base of the bullet. The earliest known specimen with this bullet type is dated 1939. The BZT bullet only ignites fuel

in protected fuel tanks. If an unprotected fuel tank is hit, the bullet usually passes through the tank without igniting the filler. The tracer burns bright red or white for a distance of up to 1,000m. The bullet is identified by a purple tip with a red band below.

 

The BZF-46 bullet is constructed similarly to the BZT bullet. However, instead of the tracer it has a cup behind the steel core that is filled with white phosphorus. The forward end of the steel bullet envelope is cut open and into this opening a separate brass tip is inserted. This soft tip and the lead filler in the nose are intended to rupture the bullet envelope (and consequently to expose the incendiary agent) not only

when hitting an armour plate, but also when hitting soft targets like a 0.5mm duralumin sheet or a 3mm plywood panel. As a result the phosphorus bullet can ignite fuel in both protected and unprotected

fuel tanks. The BZF-46 bullet was introduced together with the UB machine gun in 1941.

 

The MD high explosive bullet with V-166 nose fuze has so far only been seen on a single photograph and in a Soviet manual. This bullet was developed and adopted in 1940. 

The MD-46 and MDZ-46 bullets were high explosive bullet designs from early WWII and a number of specimens from that time exist. Inside the gilding metal clad steel envelope a steel body filled with high explosive is located. The MDZ-46 bullet differs from the MD-46 in having an additional incendiary filler below the high explosive payload. The projectiles are closed with a screw-on nose cap made from brass, which acts as an air compression fuze. Below the fuze a KV-11 or RG-14 detonator cap is pressed into the steel body. The high explosive bullets have no colour markings, since they can be easily distinguished from other rounds by their appearance.

 

Performance of the 12.7 mm Berezin ammunition ->

According to a Soviet ammunition manual, the B-32 bullet is capable of penetrating 16mm of homogeneous steel at a distance of 200m and a striking angle of 65°. The same manual lists 10mm of steel penetrated at a striking angle of 60° and a distance of 300m for the BZT bullet. This armour piercing incendiary tracer bullet additionally provides a bright white or red colour trace for a distance of up to 1,000m. The post-war BZT-44 bullet has a minimum tracer burning time of 3 seconds, which also equals a range of at least 1,000m.

The high explosive incendiary bullet MDZ-3 ignites gasoline in unprotected fuel tanks only. When fired into a duralumin aircraft wing, the MDZ-3 bullet creates an entrance opening with a diameter of approximately 20mm and an exit opening of up to 110mm diameter. The modern MDZ bullet defeats a 2.0mm duralumin sheet at a range of up to 1,500m.

 

To name other types of the ammunition possible to be used in game, for other guns :

a) For Rheinmetall Borsig MG 17 that could be : 

- 7.92 x 57 SmK - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern
- 7.92 x 57 SmK - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Hart
- 7.92 x 57 SmK L Spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Leuchtspur
- 7.92 x 57 SmK L Spur (Weiss) - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Leuchtspur
- 7.92 x 57 SmK Ub m Zerl - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Ubungsmunition mit Zerleger
- 7.92 x 57 PmK - Phosphorgeschoss mit Stahlkern 
- 7.92 x 57 B - Beobachtungs Patrone mit Zerleger

b) For MG FF/M that could be :

- 20 mm Panzergranatepatrone FFM ohne Zerleger
- 20 mm Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phosphorous) FFM ohne Zerleger

- 20 mm Panzersprenggranattpatrone Leuchtspur FFM mit Zerleger

- 20 mm Brandsprenggranattpatrone Leuchtspur FFM mit Zerleger

- 20 mm Brandgranatepatrone Leuchtspur FFM ohne Zerleger

- 20 mm Minengeschosspatrone FFM mit Zerleger

c) For Mauser MG 151/20 that could be :

- 20 mm Brandsprenggranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger

- 20 mm Brandgranatpatrone 151

- 20 mm Minengeschosspatrone 151 ohne L'Spur

- Panzergranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger

- Panzersprenggranatpatrone 151 

- Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phosphor) 151 ohne Zerleger

 

 

 

To name other example, the upcoming Macchi Mc.202 will be armed with two 7.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns and two 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns.

For the 7.7 mm there could be named four types of the ammunition;

a) Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (Al fosforo) which is Armor Piercing Incendiary steel core bullet with phosphorous. Weight of the projectile is 12 grams. Armor penetration is roughly 7 mm at 150 meters.

b) Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (Alla termite) which is Armor Piercing Incendiary ammunition with thermite. Weight of the projectile is 11,8 grams.

c) Breda da osservazione  which is a tracer round, actually with an explosive filling with nose fuse. It is similar to B-patrone used by the Luftwaffe.

d) Breda tracciante luminosa which is a full metal jacket bullet with very bright tracer in base for daylight usage. 

 

For the 12.7 mm there were far more types; including the normal Ball, Tracer, Armor piercing, Armor piercing incendiary tracer (with thermite), High Explosive projectile, Incendiary (phosphorous) and Incendiary tracer (thermite). 

 

 

 

Overall the variety of the ammunition is huge and I would really like to see that one day in BoS, so each player can customize the ammunition belts for the guns he is using. There should be some restrictions, like no more than 3-4 rounds of the same type in belt (to avoid situation in which everyone would be flying only with Minengeschoss which was obviously not the case in real life), that would improve the immersion of the game and gave more fun for those who like to experiment with the armament they carry. 

I hope this suggestion was not too long or boring, I only wanted to signal some possible rounds that could be introduced and also tried to put some performance characteristics of the presented ammunition. i also hope there is an interest for such feature and possibility to expand the ammunition variety.

 

Sources:

 

 

a) SOVIET CANNON A COMPREHENSIVE STUDY OF SOVIET GUNS AND AMMUNITION IN CALIBRES 12.7MM TO 57MM by Christian Koll, Linz, Austria, 2009

SOVIET

b) Department of the army technical manual - Italian and French Explosive Ordnance, Departments of the army and the air force March 1953

 

 

[bivalov]

lack of half of mentioned or not mentioned here stuff, personally for me, this is one of biggest disappointments in BOS.

 

and i tried to ask and said several times on russian part, but devs in fact kick these "wishes of hardcore community"...........

 

 

but i still hope for all these goodies......

 

and btw thanks for some confirmations about mainly SHVAK rounds - strange, but according to personally my knowledge, here not so much info about..........

 

 

 

a) For Rheinmetall Borsig MG 17 that could be : 

- 7.92 x 57 SmK - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern

- 7.92 x 57 SmK - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Hart

- 7.92 x 57 SmK L Spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Leuchtspur

- 7.92 x 57 SmK L Spur (Weiss) - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Leuchtspur

- 7.92 x 57 SmK Ub m Zerl - Spitzgeschoss mit Stahlkern, Ubungsmunition mit Zerleger

- 7.92 x 57 PmK - Phosphorgeschoss mit Stahlkern 

- 7.92 x 57 B - Beobachtungs Patrone mit Zerleger

 

c) For Mauser MG 151/20 that could be :

- 20 mm Brandsprenggranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger

- 20 mm Brandgranatpatrone 151

- 20 mm Minengeschosspatrone 151 ohne L'Spur

- Panzergranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur ohne Zerleger

- Panzersprenggranatpatrone 151 

- Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phosphor) 151 ohne Zerleger

 

 

what's really bad - looks like that now in game only selected rounds............

 

and btw i not found any "Panzergranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur" for end 42 - early 43, in 4-5 concrete german documents.  

 

 

 

There should be some restrictions, like no more than 3-4 rounds of the same type in belt

no, please, because....... -

 

"gave more fun for those who like to experiment with the armament they carry."

 

 

(to avoid situation in which everyone would be flying only with Minengeschoss which was obviously not the case in real life),

 

according to official german description of using belts and ammunition, in fact, you or your commander can use almost everything that you have and you want.......

 

so, i not see here confines, at least for LW.

 

moreover, standart belting for MG 151/20 in 1944 - 3 M-Gs in each 5 rounds.......

Edited February 19, 2015 by bivalov

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

and btw i not found any "Panzergranatpatrone 151 mit L'spur" for end 42 - early 43, in 4-5 concrete german documents. 

I was a bit liberal with that, considering the Fw-190 and Mc.202 are not fitting this time and theater perfectly, I thought adding more types of ammunition would not hurt. But yes, you are right

 

 

 

no, please, because.......   - "gave more fun for those who like to experiment with the armament they carry."

Well, I had a thought on that ... and in CloD most of the guys on 109s uses a mix of Minengeschoss and Panzergranate. Filling a whole belt with Minengeschoss is not experimenting but rather going for best from best. It was only a thought though, thats why its suggestion and is open for the discussion.

 

 

 

according to official german description of using belts and ammunition, in fact, you or your commander can use almost everything that you have and you want.......

so, i not see here confines, at least for LW.

moreover, standart belting for MG 151/20 in 1944 - 3 M-Gs in each 5 rounds.......

Yes, it was the same as in Japan where more than 50 % of the belts of 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine cannon were filled High Explosive Incendiary rounds. Americans also had some ability to adjust the belts and often they went for ball rounds as they considered a flat nosed bullets more capable of damaging the airframe.

 

And the decision to adopt so many Minengeschoss was mainly due to the opposition they were encountering - the B-17s. Where to compare our Il-2 and Pe-2 with Flying Fortress

Edited February 19, 2015 by =LD=Hiromachi

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This has been argued many times. Ammo types are never selected at the pilot level IRL. Loadouts are mission specific not pilot specific. I'm ok if there are a couple of set types of belts/canisters/load outs to select, similar to selecting guns in modifications/unlocks, but am completely opposed to CLOD style ammo selection.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Ammo types are never selected at the pilot level IRL.

Gaby would argue about that with you.

I've read plenty of accounts of or documents when it was said or claimed that pilots or unit commanders were left with the ability to adjust the belts used in their aircraft. As said above, Japanese Army pilots often exceeded the limits by taking more than 50 % of the  High Explosive ammunition into their 12.7 mm machine cannons. Japanese Navy pilots preferred to have 1:1:1 in High Explosive / High Explosive Incendiary / High Explosive Tracer.

 

Besides, following your logic players should have no impact on the amount of fuel they carry - it should be restricted by the mission settings. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Nope, fuel and convergence are already calculated in game. I'm willing to make that allowance. What is being suggested here is complex and feature creep.

 

A Gabby Gabreski or Adolph Galland could probably make that decision regarding ammo - especially if they disguised it as an evaluation of load out. Your average captain on the other hand had parameters dictated to him by his chain of command and the TOE.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

A Gabby Gabreski or Adolph Galland could probably make that decision regarding ammo - especially if they disguised it as an evaluation of load out. Your average captain on the other hand had parameters dictated to him by his chain of command and the TOE.

In the quote I'm referring to he was not talking himself but said "American pilots", unfortunately dont have a book with that quote with me as I'm on holiday.