Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 By "chosen ones" of course. If they never used the games, who are they, kind of martians? But something like that could also be officially incorporated and not need to be a mod. In order for a mod to be at some point officially incorporated into the game by the dev, it should first proove it's a valuable addition to the game. A "mod's on" mode allows to make this demonstration, to the devs also. The dev has no time to waste with users telling they have good ideas and that they could realise it, they need proofs, and it's easier for them to incorporate something that has been tested in game.
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 In order for a mod to be at some point officially incorporated into the game by the dev, it should first proove it's a valuable addition to the game. A "mod's on" mode allows to make this demonstration, to the devs also. The dev has no time to waste with users telling they have good ideas and that they could realise it, they need proofs, and it's easier for them to incorporate something that has been tested in game. I think this is pretty obvious, but I'm afraid you are talking to a wall...
Splat Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 That's true. But I find it hard to imagine that mods wouldn't find their way online Your incredulity is irrelevant. What are the facts? Is there currently a verified problem with the unauthorized use of modifications on Mods Off servers in Rise of Flight?
DigitalEngine Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) I would like the ability to have a mod which could add new user created aircraft, and the option to change FM's and DM's (HFXS expert mode for example) in online and offline. Great mod, and so many objects, maps and aircraft for free!! Would love to see this mod for the new BOS/MOS. Of course it is completely understandable why 777 would object, cause we would not have to pay for additional content any more, and 777 does need to make a profit for them to stay in business and continue on with the series. Have to admit though, it would be kinda mischievously cool and fun to have a mod with a stealth Bf-109 which flies like a F-16, especially online . But other players might not like it (unless they had the same). Maybe for 777 for to release mod tools and which would prevent or not make it any easier for someone (myself included) from exploiting said mod tools to do the above, means writing more code, testing, etc, etc, etc..($$$$), and then the possibility of such happening would still be(is) present. And you know someone's gonna(is) try(ing) it. Once the cat's out of the bag, the cat's out of the bag as the saying goes.... Even so, a HFXS mod for BOS would just be awesome!! Edited February 22, 2015 by BlueMatrix
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Your incredulity is irrelevant. What are the facts? Is there currently a verified problem with the unauthorized use of modifications on Mods Off servers in Rise of Flight? Because according to most WWII is going to generate a much larger amount of mods than a WWI sim, and the effect would be to splinter the game online. That hasn't happened to RoF but that might not be true for BoS. and apparently this is what happened to the Old IL-2 I would like the ability to have a mod which could add new user created aircraft, and the option to change FM's and DM's See this is what I'm on about No No No No.... Edited February 22, 2015 by SharpeXB
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) On the basis of this post I would have to conclude that not only do you know nothing about "that mod specifically" but also nothing about WW1 aviation in general, or about how historical data has to be interpreted to make sense of events that by their very nature cannot be tested according your arbitrary definition of what is satisfactory. We are talking about putting small caliber MG bullets into structures made of wood and canvas. Bullets hitting a main spar might weaken or even break it, but the target is tiny compared to the pilot's body and the fuel tank/engine area. Vanilla RoF makes the wings the preferred target, which is contrary to everything we know about the period. We have pilot accounts: for instance von Richtofen's reports after each victory, available in English in "Under the guns of the Red Baron" by Norman Franks et al. You should read it. 80 victories is a statistically large sample. In his reports enemy aircraft lost their wings only occasionally: and this was as likely to be because a panicked pilot overstressed his aeroplane, which can also happen easily in RoF, as due to actual battle damage. With the modded DM we can replicate these results. Having a mods-on mode is a way for SP offliners to use mods in a way that does not change their installation to become incompatible with MP play. I find it incomprehensible why you should find that to be undesirable. So who says the wings come off too easily in RoF?Look at my flight today I've survived so many missions in RoF with the wings barely hanging on, I don't think they have a problem coming off too easily. Edited February 22, 2015 by SharpeXB
TG-55Panthercules Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Rise of Flight has a different system for the skins, they are submitted to the dev and included officially, hence are not mods. Unofficial skins are mods. I don't know how any of those there are but there are literally hundreds of official skins Yes, there are actually several thousand officially approved skins for RoF (over 2,000 historical and over 4,700 fictional, IIRC) that are not "mods" and can be used in SP or MP in Mods Off mode. There are also several thousand (over 4K so far) historically plausible but un-approved skins that have been created for use with Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator since Pat introduced a mechanism to allow custom skins to be assigned to AI members of the player's flights and to other AI flights (enemy and friendly) in PWCG missions (something the devs have never gotten around to doing yet with the game's career mode or even QMB). All of those thousands of skins are considered mods and will only work in mods on mode. Just another example of the kind of things that could be lost if there's no mods on mode allowed for BoS. Edited February 22, 2015 by TG-55Panthercules 1
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Because according to most WWII is going to generate a much larger amount of mods than a WWI sim, and the effect would be to splinter the game online. That hasn't happened to RoF but that might not be true for BoS. and apparently this is what happened to the Old IL-2 No, the Il2 community splinted only when the uncontrolled free modding started. Before that a large amount of mods made their way into the game withouht splinting the MP crowd. The "mod's on" mode has nothing to do with uncontrolled free modding, so you've nothing to fear from it.
Mikey Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Because according to most WWII is going to generate a much larger amount of mods than a WWI sim, and the effect would be to splinter the game online. That hasn't happened to RoF but that might not be true for BoS. and apparently this is what happened to the Old IL-2 See this is what I'm on about No No No No.... Id like to play the game how i want. just like you. If there is no mods allowed though i would simply not buy any future dlc or anything for that matter from 1C. When i thought they were done pitching curve balls...there comes the no mods curveball...best early access roller coaster ride ever
dburne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) So who says the wings come off too easily in RoF? Look at my flight today Can we please keep this thread on topic? Regarding Mods On option not being available for BOS? Btw that is what happens when you prang the wing into the ground either during takeoff or landing. Edited February 22, 2015 by dburne
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 No, the Il2 community splinted only when the uncontrolled free modding started. Before that a large amount of mods made their way into the game withouht splinting the MP crowd. The "mod's on" mode has nothing to do with uncontrolled free modding, so you've nothing to fear from it. Yes that's what I was trying to say. But isn't mods on effectively the same thing?
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Yes that's what I was trying to say. But isn't mods on effectively the same thing? No "mod's on" mode in RoF doesn't allow to include new planes or new maps in game. Neither does it allow to change FMs. This mode allows intoducing new 3D objects, new textures, new vehicles, making sceneries, and more... but not the above.
Lusekofte Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Well I consider no mod as a direct lie from the developers. We were promised this. You guys give your customers a very hard time understanding why they not getting what is promised to them. This is a real deal breaker for me, of the first time I honestly can't tell if I am in for your BOM . You might be the final chance for WW2 sim, but act like you want to give it a neckshot
Brano Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I belive that mod is abbreviation for modification.Not adding new content.
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I belive that mod is abbreviation for modification.Not adding new content. Then the "mod's on mod" doesn't allow any mod, but only "new content" (except maybe for some modification of parameters in parameter's text file....). Call it whatever you want. But what is called "mod" by many people in this discussion and what is the purpose of the thread, is the ability for users to add new content in the game, in the forms of 3D objects, textures, sceneries, etc.... Discussion about what you call "mod", ie modified software, is strictly forbidden by forum rule #10, so it's certainly not the subject of this thread.
FuriousMeow Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) No, this isn't the correct figure. Mods started long before, even before 1946... a big proportion of 1946 (terrain, planes, etc...) was made of mods. There were plenty of modders working for IL2 and submitting their works to the devs (you can check the . But the mod integration within the game was totally controlled by the dev until some of the modding tools (ungtp) were made public and used in an uncontrolled way. (that also started a little before development ceased). No, you can do more and not much is locked (except FM and DM). And even when it is in game (like for new maps for example), you can still watch your work with the FMB. Also in RoF, some work that was initially mods became official, sometimes before the forums knew someone was working on a mod. There was some good modding also on RoF, largelly less than on Il2 original, this for 2 reasons: - the user crowd was much smaller, and so was the modder's crowd. - modding on RoF is much more complex and time consuming than it was on Il2 original That's said, the "mod's on" mode absence, isn't a modder's stopper, but it makes it easier to see some mods "in action", so I would say it's usefull, and I don't really understand why it can't be included in BoS.... except maybe it could conflict with unlocks feature (who stay in the game, even if it was mostly removed for premium users).... if it's the reason, then it would be IMO another proof of the unlocks nuisance. Also.... even with "mod's on" mode, modding will stay complex and very time consuming, so you will see less mods than you saw with il2. It is not incorrect, the modding began with the sound mod hack. The previous cockpits and planes that were added were via approved channels and weren't mods, individuals were allowed to make plane models and cockpits and submit them to be included but the FM and DM work was up to the developers. This isn't modding, being allowed to develop a cockpit or plane or map isn't modding, that is simply developing for the developers to include. The modding did in fact begin with the sound mod/hack. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2300 As has been said, the majority of the work is the FM - so even if people are allowed to design planes and cockpits, they will sit on the back burner until the FM is made. There weren't mods outside of what the devs included prior to the sound mod, the original hack. That is absolutely how history is, and Oleg was not a fan of mods either. So citing 1946 as a bastion of modding is false history, mods to the game did not exist until the hack. Starshoy's campaign generator is not a mod, it is a third party mission builder external to the game that was eventually integrated by the devs. Mods, as in modifications to the actual game, did not happen until the sound modhack and at that point, Oleg was not happy that happened. Additional plane models, cockpits, maps prior to the sound mod/hack are not mods - they had to be submitted for approval and their development was approved by that individual, they also couldn't be placed into the game until the devs themselves added them. That is not mods, mods are modifications to the core game that require no developer assistance to include. Edited February 22, 2015 by FuriousMeow 1
Livai Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I asked about mods-on mode for BoS a month or so ago. Zak said that it would be added after the skin viewer and before the dedicated servers both of which are coming this month I think. http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13413-future-mods-bos/ Interesting development from 11 Jan 2013 to 10 Dec 2014
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 There weren't mods outside of what the devs included prior to the sound mod, the original hack. .../... There was, plenty, I participated to it, and got official credit for it. Adding new stuff in game, either by the help of the dev for official integration, or directly with the authorisation of the dev with the "mod's on" mode, is exactly the same thing. Both is asking for the same work, and both need the dev to be ok with it.... the only difference being the first way is asking more work to the dev.
FuriousMeow Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 There was, plenty, I participated to it, and got official credit for it. Adding new stuff in game, either by the help of the dev for official integration, or directly with the authorisation of the dev with the "mod's on" mode, is exactly the same thing. Both is asking for the same work, and both need the dev to be ok with it.... the only difference being the first way is asking more work to the dev. Rama, you made user developed content then. Mods are modifications to the core game without any developer input/assistance/control. When you look at mods for other games, that is exactly what it is - modifications to the core game without any developer oversight. You are talking about user developed content, as long as the developers have some control over it - it is not a mod. 1
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 it is not a mod. I call it a mod, you don't.... it doesn't matter. As I said, it's all about adding new content to the game, the vocabulary wont change it.... period.... user developed content, as long as the developers have some control over it An that's exactly what's the "mod's on" mode brings, user developped content, in the limits fixed by the dev, so they do have "some control" over it.
FuriousMeow Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I call it a mod, you don't.... it doesn't matter. As I said, it's all about adding new content to the game, period.... It does matter, because I am fully against mods - they ruined Il-2 online. That thread up there I posted has it all. New content doesn't matter when the quality is crap, it is an uncontrolled mess, or it impacts the integrity of the product. If users that are good at creating new objects want to participate, cool. But not planes, and certainly not FMs. Maps, as long as approved, are fine too such as Zeus' map. But with Oleg's product it required approval, and nothing was included in the title without their direct involvement, so there was no way individuals could make something that would overlap what the devs are already making, until the sound mod which ruined Il-2 online, and completely ruined it for me. And if new planes or cockpits are one of the driving desires for the mods, that just isn't going to happen. The FM takes the most effort and that delays the aircraft the most, so the 3D models can be built but they won't be used until the FM is built which takes significantly longer.
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 It does matter, because I am fully against mods - they ruined Il-2 online.And many people I'm sure do not want to see that repeated with BoS. The reason RoF didn't get splintered by mods is probably that it's such a small niche game I think it basically self-policed multiplayer. We do know from RoF it's possible to mod core aspects like the DM and rate of fire. We all want good quality user generated and 3rd party content in the sim and from the example given above that's possible without introducing mods into the multiplayer game.
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 @FuriousMeow You're fully off topic. We're talking about what's allowed to do with "mod's on" mode, not about "full free uncontrolled modding" as what happens with sims without support. As BC allrady said, please stay on topic. 1
dburne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) And many people I'm sure do not want to see that repeated with BoS. The reason RoF didn't get splintered by mods is probably that it's such a small niche game I think it basically self-policed multiplayer. Mods on mode for ROF - A very good thing, and very popular. You yourself admitted to flying ROF with mods on. You yourself admitted there came no harm to Multiplayer. Many good things came to ROF through the Mods On feature, that eventually got integrated into the core game. Now for whatever reason, you seem to project harm would come to BOS with having Mods on option. I personally think it will just be the opposite... Edited February 22, 2015 by dburne
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Again, check out how the mod system works in BoS and you'll instantly drop hysteric assumption right away. This is not Il-1946 and even in mods on mode doesn't offer full modability. 1
KodiakJac Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) That's exactly the situation I hope never to see because it would mean a chaotic nightmare for the majority of player who don't want confusion when they try to go online. Every server would need you to DL this mod or that mod some of which might not be compatible with each other. That's what I mean by anarchy and disaster. Most players aren't computer programmers who want to spend all their time messing with the game. I can easily see why the Devs would want to have control over this. Having Multiplayer as a game mode means one version of the game. That's it. One version! Most players don't go online. Your concern is about a very small percentage of BoS customers/players. Single players cannot be adversely affected by mods. Rather, mods enhance game play for them. The original IL-2 didn't become smaller and less significant with mods, it became larger and more significant with mods and still lives on today. Flight sims by their nature are complex. Most flight sim players enjoy that aspect. When Microsoft tried to dumb down their flight sim series with MS Flight it was a huge bomb and was pulled off the market in less than a year. Simple doesn't sell in the single player flight sim genre. It never has. Maybe if BoS was going after the MMO market it would be different, but the MMO market is not the target market segment for BoS. Edited February 22, 2015 by Bucksnort
Splat Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Because according to most WWII is going to generate a much larger amount of mods than a WWI sim, and the effect would be to splinter the game online. That hasn't happened to RoF but that might not be true for BoS. and apparently this is what happened to the Old IL-2 Unsurprisingly, this doesn't answer my question. Once again, as you yourself have noted, there is currently no problem with the splintering of the online multi-player community in Rise of Flight despite the existence of a Mods On mode. The assumption that a greater number of available mods will splinter the BoS multi-player community merely because it could is not logically sound; this is a classic fallacy and should not be used to justify the removal of a Mods On mode in BoS. In Rise of Flight, most online flyers are opting to fly in Mods Off mode, although Mods On remains a separate multi-player option for those so inclined. To my knowledge there is currently little to no evidence to suggest that unauthorized modifications have infiltrated Mods Off servers. The out-of-the-box multi-player experience remains intact. On the other hand, Mods On mode provides single players the opportunity to tailor the game to their individual play style and preferences. In Rise of Flight, Mods On mode is required for everything from PWCG UI integration, to the damage modeling of wing structures, down to simple texture modifications. This sort of modification has no effect on Mods Off online play. Also, I find it strange that you're arguing against a Mods On mode for BoS because there may be more mods when the developers' reason for cutting Mods On mode from BoS was the perceived lack of mods for RoF. Which is it? Too many or too few? Edited February 22, 2015 by Splat
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Again, check out how the mod system works in BoS and you'll instantly drop hysteric assumption right away. This is not Il-1946 and even in mods on mode doesn't offer full modability. Meant RoF of course, typo
Bearcat Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Ok well now I'm completely against the idea of having mods in the game if what they'll be used for is to hack the flight models of all the aircraft. That will lead to complete anarchy where every player with a bone to pick about the FM will just go off and create their own game. That's a total disaster. That is not the sole nature of mods. IMO the FMs and DMs need to be locked for better or worse.. even if they were considered inaccurate by some having them locked by the devs would approximate a real world environment better than free open modding. It's okay. Flight models are locked tight and cannot be modded. Even if they could, the Mods on/off feature would keep you protected. You can't go wrong. +1.... This is why it is not a bad thing at all and a no brainer. Even if we were talking about creating new FMs for planes (which we're really not, as a general matter), why would that be a "total disaster" and why would it matter to you at all? I don't want to do this, but so what if I wanted to make my Bf-109 fly like an X-wing in my own game? How are you affected by that in the least? I won't be able to use my borked-up FM plane in any MP game you might want to play, because you and 99.xx% of all other BoS MP players will choose to be playing on Mods Off servers where my mods won't work (to join those servers, I would have to turn my mods off, and thus be flying the same stock version of the game as you and everybody else on that server). So if I happen to disagree with the devs' interpretation of some open-to-question historical issue (e.g., rate of fire, dispersion, ratio of tracers to non-tracer ammo, flak coverage or accuracy, or any of a myriad of other such factors), and want to use some mods that tweak those factors in my own SP game play or even in MP missions among some of my friends to make that gameplay more enjoyable for me and my friends, why do you seem to be so hell-bent to deny us the ability to do that with a mods on mode like we have in RoF?? Why should I have to try to convince the devs to change their position/interpretation on an issue that is open to doubt (and thus impose my particular choice on every other player if I happen to be persuasive and actually convince the devs to make the change), instead of just being able to tweak/adjust those elements of the game, by using mods on in my own copy of the game, to suit my interpretation of historical accuracy or immersion without having any effect on anybody else or forcing them to agree with me? I understand completely the notion that in MP there needs to be one consistent experience for all players on an MP server, but the existence of the "mods off" mode accomplishes that just fine in RoF and I see no reason to believe it would not do so in BoS. What I don't understand at all is the notion that seems to underlie the devs' decision and so many comments like those of SharpeXB that for some reason every SP player has to be forced to have exactly the same experience playing the game. Some like SharpeXB view the ability of SP players to customize their experience as "complete anarchy", but I view it as freedom and a highly desirable way to help insure that players will enjoy the game more and get more invested in the game's success over the long run (leading to increased sales by the devs of future DLC for as long as they elect to continue supporting the game). I agree with much of what you have said here.. but I do believe that for better or worse fopr a sim to be truly successful FMs and Dms need to be totally sacrosanct. I disagree. I could fly CloD without rudder f.e., but I couldn't fly RoF/BoS without good input devices (stick and rudder) . And so the learning curve was the steepest for me, but it just feels right. All sims should be flyable with a mouse and keyboard under ideal conditions (no wind or turbulence etc... ) but to fly and fight IMO should always be a process that necessitates hardware more closely resembling the actual devices needed for such an endeavor.. iue. a joystick and some kind of rudder control at the very least.. Because according to most WWII is going to generate a much larger amount of mods than a WWI sim, and the effect would be to splinter the game online. That hasn't happened to RoF but that might not be true for BoS. and apparently this is what happened to the Old IL-2 See this is what I'm on about No No No No.... I totally disagree with this...In fact I think that having a mods on mods off mode would actually serve to bind tghe community more because as I have always stated .. OPTIONS is one of the key features to a successful sim... and having the optuion to use mods or not in a controlled environment is the best case scenario for having mods under any circumstances. No, the Il2 community splinted only when the uncontrolled free modding started. Before that a large amount of mods made their way into the game withouht splinting the MP crowd. The "mod's on" mode has nothing to do with uncontrolled free modding, so you've nothing to fear from it. Absolutely.
-NW-ChiefRedCloud Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) WOW! Talk about Anger Management Issues ..... I've read both sides and some of the middle on this issue and can not believe that folks could get so angry (so fired up) over Mods? It's not that I don't see the importance of them but not at the price of bickering and back bighting. The Dev's have given us some middle ground at the moment for those talented that want to contribute like Zues. I earnestly believe, in time, that the Dev's will add Mods. But like much of the other issues with BoS, I believe they want it to fly on an even keel for now. Hence they limit some things to lesson their burden or ours in a flood of complaints about games NOT working. Pointing out the importance of mods is a good thing. Even expressing your opinion why you would not like them is ok. But taking up sides against each other in anger (so it would seem) is not. We, or at least I, am here to enjoy a marvelous product, Battle of Stalingrad, with others who feel the same as I do. I enjoy reading the technical and historical knowledge of many of you who would see change or corrections. What bothers me is the anger that appears in discussions as each person attempts to drive THEIR point home. I await the many who may tell me that I'm wrong on my points here. But just let me say that IF I were new to these forums, posts as heated as these might just urge me to go play Candy Crush or some other ridiculous title. Cheer gentlemen .... Come shoot me down (if you can) and get rid of your frustrations. Chief Edited February 22, 2015 by -NW-ChiefRedCloud
Scott_Steiner Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 So a mod isn't created by a user? by who then? I know, I was part of the peoples that created content officially put in game by OM. You can find my (real) name in the game's credits. And I can assure you that there's no difference in creating these contents than when it can be used in game by a "mod's on" mode. The same tools (photoshop, 3D Max, others...) are used, it takes the same amount of hard wordk, etc.... The only difference is that lots of users then don't know it was made by third-parties. Modding isn't just "uncontrolled free modding", your own definition of it is way too restrictive, and not representative of the modder's activities. You are either missing the whole point of what of what I am saying, or you are choosing to ignore it. Don't tell me what modding is or is not, I have added official content and unofficial content to many many sim titles over the years, I do not need to know what you or other people have done, or how much work was put into said content (no offense intended). My whole point is this: IL-2 had only officially added content by 3rd party for many many years before the unofficial scene was broken wide open. People on this forum are acting like it was always there and that there is no difference between the 2 ways 3rd-party content is added, which is untrue. If people created great content that could be added to BoS and showed the developers, they would certainly incorporate it into the game. This is a similar fashion to how the original IL-2 worked. That is my point. I have not reflected any of my own opinions of Mods On vs Mods Off in this thread but when people pretend like the original IL-2 was this way all along and act like the sky is falling in BoS, people are either choosing to ignore, don't remember how IL-2 originally was or only picked up the game after it's official life cycle was pretty much finished. People are saying that this game can not be successful without unofficial modding available and that the original was successful because of it, when in actuality that was not the case at all. BoS is not in all that of a dissimilar state to how IL-2 originally was. 1
TG-55Panthercules Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Scott's post above confirms what I was strongly suspecting from reading through a lot of these other posts here. I guess it's probably inevitable with a game like BoS that has two such very different "parents". Seems like we have one bunch of folks here who came primarily from the old IL-2, who keep saying in effect "we hate what mods did to old IL-2 so we don't want to see them in BoS", and we have another bunch of folks who came primarily from RoF who keep saying in effect "we love what mods have done for RoF and want to see the same mod capability in BoS". I can sympathize with the devs a bit, as they try to reconcile such disparate views of the different segments of their customer base. I have to count myself in the latter group - although I played IL-2 for many years and really loved it, I left it before the explosion of mods and haven't played it for many years now. I've been playing RoF for the last 5 or 6 years, so my view of this mods on/mods off issue is certainly colored by my more recent experience with RoF. Based on the discussions in this thread so far, it certainly seems that the approaches to mods in the two games (old IL-2 and RoF) were very different. I'm not sure exactly how mods were handled with the old IL-2 or why they seemed to be so detrimental to some people's experience with the old IL-2, but I am very familiar with how mods have been working with RoF. Bottom line - I don't think the BoS devs should take whatever approach to mods wound up messing up the old IL-2, but I do think they should take the approach to mods that has worked so well with RoF for the past 6 years. 1
Feathered_IV Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 I think the main thing with the old il-2 is that the game was not designed to incorporate user added mods. RoF was the opposite in that it has a built in system that works exceptionally well. 3
unreasonable Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) I think the main thing with the old il-2 is that the game was not designed to incorporate user added mods. RoF was the opposite in that it has a built in system that works exceptionally well. +1 Not only that, but the fact that RoF has a mods-on mode has probably helped prevent the total hacking that some fear so much. It is not needed, since there is an outlet for those that want to customize their own game. The objections to mods-on seem to come in the following flavours: 1) It is unnecessary since mods can be submitted directly to the devs for evaluation and incorporation. The answer to that is that mods-on allows for this process to get player feedback and hence reduce dev work burden. They can then incorporate the mods that have already passed the test of the player base. 2) It is unnecessary since no-one wants it as is shown because there are rather few mods for RoF. Well there are obviously a few people here who want it; not only that but the people who are active in modding are often the most frequent forum visitors and the most helpful towards new players who are struggling with control bindings and whatever. Why alienate your most active community members? 3) It is unnecessary since the dev team will fix all issues and end up with the best possible content. In a historical context there is always room for disagreement about what is the "best content". This aside, the best content for MP is not necessarily the best content for SP. Simple example: flak effectiveness. Main use in MP = deter camping, in SP = give plausible approximation of RL effectiveness. 4) It is dangerous since it will split the MP community too much. No evidence at all that this has happened in RoF. Even in IL2, there is a still working MP community in an ancient game, arguably without mods this would no longer be the case. And even if this is a danger, the needs of the MP community have to be balanced against the needs of the SP community which values choice. Mods on in RoF has achieved an excellent balance. 5) It is dangerous since it will lead to cheating in MP. Everything seems to lead to cheating in MP.... that aside, RoF mods-on allows DM modding. Can anyone point to a situation where someone has been able to exploit this fact to gain an unfair advantage in MP? I do not play MP RoF but following the RoF forum for years I do not recall this ever being a problem. Edited February 23, 2015 by unreasonable 2
Yakdriver Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) People are saying that this game can not be successful without unofficial modding available and that the original was successful because of it, when in actuality that was not the case at all. BoS is not in all that of a dissimilar state to how IL-2 originally was. well, people are also saying that having a way to put your own altered textures (n shizzles) in the game would encourage us to create some cool stuff that the devteam is most likely most welcome to use. Cloud textures. flare textures. cockpit textures. all sorts of simple stuff that is, just like skinning planes, at the reach of everyone's fingertips. what would you change. how can you change. get to work, and do it. set up the software, get a set of good plans, turn that mercedes Limousine into a Willis jeep and see how it rolls. offer it to everyone. help get the next installment out the door faster. I mean like with ten Planes, two maps(x3seasons) a year, and still "officially" no AI planes allowed...(imagine a B-24 on BoS quality = 3 years of work...?) by the time we're properly done with the eastern front and ready to move our gear to... manchuria...Pearl harbor...operation Torch...Paris... i'll be dead and gone. Plus... there is , i would gather... a set of "content creators" who still hangs on to 46, cause that platform is not their flying toy... that platform is their mental workshop. i bet you a fiver, if modding is brought back, "someone, somewhere" is ready to set up shop with the BoS Family. Edited February 23, 2015 by Yakdriver
Rama Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 You are either missing the whole point of what of what I am saying, or you are choosing to ignore it. I was preciselly answering to the text I quoted..... nothing more, nothing less. Sorry if I try to be rational. For the rest, If you also try to get my "whole point" by reading my other posts, you would see that your "whole point" isn't very different from my "whole point", and so that confronting them would not generate any discussion. @unreasoable: that's a pretty good summary of the discussion and well presented answers to the "fear points".
Lusekofte Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 It does matter, because I am fully against mods - they ruined Il-2 online. That thread up there I posted has it all. New content doesn't matter when the quality is crap, it is an uncontrolled mess, or it impacts the integrity of the product. If users that are good at creating new objects want to participate, cool. But not planes, and certainly not FMs. Maps, as long as approved, are fine too such as Zeus' map. But with Oleg's product it required approval, and nothing was included in the title without their direct involvement, so there was no way individuals could make something that would overlap what the devs are already making, until the sound mod which ruined Il-2 online, and completely ruined it for me. And if new planes or cockpits are one of the driving desires for the mods, that just isn't going to happen. The FM takes the most effort and that delays the aircraft the most, so the 3D models can be built but they won't be used until the FM is built which takes significantly longer. You might be against mod, but you are misleading .IL 2 would have been dead without mod. Only latest patch made il2 playable . BOS will not live long without usermade content. And people like you with best intentions of course , support its demise
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