MODS OFF

[SharpeXB]

And I thought the DM in RoF was excluded from modding and yet there's a Wing Damage model mod. No wonder nobody plays mods on in MP

Somebody just wants a bulletproof plane. That's just a game hack. Not a mod.

[Jarhead1]

Well I've read all 6+ pages of this thread and I've got to say that's the last straw. Sick of the arrogance and disregard for the customer. I'm going to keep my game updated and check here for news and developments but otherwise I've had it with Loft and the crew.

[TG-55Panthercules]

I'm confused about all the comments/discussions about a Mods On mode for MP - was Zak's comment limited to MP?  Coming more from a RoF perspective than an old IL-2 one (though I played the heck out of IL-2 years ago and loved it a lot, I phased out of it before the big wave of hacks and major mod packs appeared on the scene), I view this whole Mods On/Mods Off thing as being primarily an SP-focused concept.  That's why it blows my mind that the devs would rule out a Mods On mode for what was pitched as a highly SP-oriented sim like BoS.

 

I fully understand the arguments people are making here about why the use of mods in an MP environment could be detrimental in terms of splintering the MP community, especially while it is as small of the RoF and BoS MP communities are now.  But as we've seen with RoF, that problem tends to take care of itself - the MP players gravitate heavily toward the Mods Off servers, so that's all you tend to see running at any particular time.  But so what?  That doesn't argue for not allowing a Mods On mode for BoS - it just argues for the fact that the existence of such a mode won't likely have any effect on BoS MP at all.  Like RoF, it's likely that the BoS MP players will prefer the Mods Off servers in overwhelming numbers and that's probably all you'll see running almost all the time.

 

So, all the denial of a Mods On mode seems likely to do is once again place further limits on the ability of SP players to enjoy BoS as they see fit.  I still can't see why this decision makes any walking around sense at all - with RoF, I can play the SP game using any of the 50 or more mod packages I have collected (my current installation uses over 30 mods), and so can every other RoF player if they want to.  Neither 777 nor any RoF MP player (or other SP player) is harmed by the fact that I might be using some mods in my SP game, and meanwhile I'm enjoying the game more, buying all the new DLC the devs release and supporting the growth of the RoF community and their continuing loyalty to the game.  

 

Where is the harm in any of that, to anybody?  The concept of having a mods on mode, which works so well in RoF, seems like such a total no-brainer that I'm still stunned by Zak's comment, and by Jason's apparent inability (so far - still hoping) to persuade them to reverse this decision.

 

I'd be more than happy to contribute a carton of US cigarettes to be sent to Loft by way of the Murmansk convoys if that would help.  

Edited February 22, 2015 by TG-55Panthercules

[Feathered_IV]

And I thought the DM in RoF was excluded from modding and yet there's a Wing Damage model mod. No wonder nobody plays mods on in MP

Somebody just wants a bulletproof plane. That's just a game hack. Not a mod.

The idea was that wings tend to shear off a little too easily. Dr-1's particularly would loose the top half of a wing but still fight on. That mod was able to tweak this incongruity and provide a more realistic experience.

 

I understand that mods are used much less in casual multiplayer where people need to drop in and out without being concerned about compatibility. In singleplayer though, it really is the opposite. In SP mods become an essential ingredient in the enjoyment and personalisation for the game.

 

The very creation of them is a form of entertainment in itself too and a game that supports a mods-on mode will bring in these creative types. Which in turn can bring in and retain more customers.

[Feathered_IV]

I'm confused about all the comments/discussions about a Mods On mode for MP - was Zak's comment limited to MP?

 

Zak's comment wasn't limited to MP. It's just that several people in this discussion are fixated on multiplayer and can't see beyond it.

[SharpeXB]

The idea was that wings tend to shear off a little too easily.

Too easily based upon what evidence?

I thought changing the damage models in the sim was not allowed. Once the mods start changing core aspects of the game like that you can see why they're never used online.

[dburne]

In RoF the Mods setting really only affects multiplayer in that there can be servers with it on or off. The mod setting makes no difference in SP gameplay in terms of career achievements or points.

 

Really, Mods only affect MP in ROF???

 

Hmm, I only fly SP, with MODS ON .

 

And please, what in the world does any of this have to do with not allowing Mods On in BOS?

 

It is a choice, one can choose to fly mods on, or choose to fly with mods off. Choice can be a good thing.

Edited February 22, 2015 by dburne

[Bearcat]

Just checking now, ARMA 3 has something like 4000 servers and so many players online it can't be counted. Games like that can afford to have mods

 

RoF has one server going with 25 players on it (and nobody playing Expert, supporting my point above that RoF MP is dead)

BoS this morning had about 40+ on one server and maybe 8 on another

And this is Saturday noon prime time game hour!

 

Flight sims absolutely don't have the player base to afford being divided up by mods

and even though it's possible to have Mods-On servers in RoF there are currently none running

 

So as far as online play is concerned, modding is a no-go

 

This flight sim doesn't have to be divided by mods... if there is an option that comes from the developer to use them or not.. and as long as FMs and DMs are locked... I do not see how it would divide the community.

 

Loft apparently changed his mind at some point. Nothing I can do unfortunately. My partners know my position on this topic.

 

Jason

would you mind asking him to inform the public at the very least?

not justify with walls of text or argue, but, like, inform us that a big subject will be tackled in a different manner because of reason 1,2,3... basta.

 

That would be way cool.

 

I would hope that he would come in here and reconsider.. at the very least. This does not have to be as ... turbulent as it has been over the past 4 months in particular.. It never had to be this way. My wish and my desire is that whoever is making these decisions come out of the vacuum of his own reasoning and step into the airy expanse of sound counsel and community input and take a few long deep breaths... perhaps enough to even hyperventilate.

[dburne]

And I thought the DM in RoF was excluded from modding and yet there's a Wing Damage model mod. No wonder nobody plays mods on in MP

Somebody just wants a bulletproof plane. That's just a game hack. Not a mod.

 

Have you checked out that particular mod, or are you just stating this like it is a fact without having any knowledge of that particular mod?

Have you really spent any time in ROF?

 

Once again, when we are talking about a Mods option, it is not all related to only MP flying - not by a long shot...

 

There are several things about ROF that makes it a great sim, and really sets it apart from what we have currently with BOS, I so wish they had stuck with the ROF style of gameplay.

Edited February 22, 2015 by dburne

[Rjel]

It seems that Sharpe simply defends whatever the developers have[Edited] decided is the best thing for the game, irrespective of whether the rest of the customer base agrees or not.

There's little point in debating these issues with Sharpe because it's clear where his loyalties lie.

 

Sharpe seems to be in the camp that feels that everything the developers touch is gold and nobody else is entitled to disagree, even when its patently obvious the decision is wrong.

 

Still, I'll be shouted down, banned, post edited/deleted, etc, etc. because ... BOS rocks.

But slandering someone is ok? Pretty sad.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bearcat

[Scott_Steiner]

Are people confusing "Mods" with "User Created Content" ???

 

The original IL-2 didn't have mods for 6 or 7 years.. No body complained back then and the game was highly successful. People in this thread are acting like IL-2 should have never been a commercial success and that they would never had even bought it and supported it.

 

If you think the original IL-2 up until the later part of 1946 was so bad before the modding came along, did you only start playing in 2008 or 2009? Was it not worth purchasing and supporting until that point?

 

I am ultimately confused by most of the responses in this thread.

[Rama]

the developers have paid him to defend

This kind of malicious urban legend insinuation is rather dismal.... I would even say a bit stinky...

Moreover, it is spreading false and harmfull information, thus breaking forum rule #17

 

irrespective of whether the rest of the customer base agrees or not.

 

So, now every post should be consensual... I really don't get you. Are you not the same person hardly defending the liberty of speech? everybody posting should follow the main stream or shut up?

 

There's little point in debating these issues with Sharpe because it's clear where his loyalties lie.

Ok.... then why this post of you? by your own standard, it is useless.

 

Sharpe seems to be in the camp that feels that everything the developers touch is gold and nobody else is entitled to disagree, even when its patently obvious the decision is wrong.

Maybe.... and then?

Has he attacked you personally in this thread? No.... so do you have any reason to attack him? No

So again, why this post?

 

Still, I'll be shouted down, banned, post edited/deleted, etc, etc. because ... BOS rocks.

Well, your post brings nothing to the discussion, is clearly infringing a forum rule, and is other than that just a slander toward a poster.

Edition and ban would be totally deserved.

 

I won't do it since I'm part of the conversation in this thread.

[SharpeXB]

Really, Mods only affect MP in ROF???

 

Hmm, I only fly SP, with MODS ON .

 

And please, what in the world does any of this have to do with not allowing Mods On in BOS?

 

It is a choice, one can choose to fly mods on, or choose to fly with mods off. Choice can be a good thing.

"Affect" meaning that's the only purpose in there being a consistent game everyone plays. It would "affect" single player if for example you couldn't get a score in the Career Mode with Mods On.

[Yakdriver]

whoever is making these decisions...

i had some more rough language in mind involving [Edited] but could not get myself to write that down.

your choice of words is more appropriate - thanks!

 

Please... Spare us all and just don't go there.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bearcat

[Rama]

Are people confusing "Mods" with "User Created Content" ???

 

A mod is nothing but a "User created content"

[SharpeXB]

Have you checked out that particular mod, or are you just stating this like it is a fact without having any knowledge of that particular mod?

Have you really spent any time in ROF?

Yes I have played RoF for hundreds of hours. The point of bringing up that mod is that it was stated the FM and DM should be locked as far as modding is concerned but it appears that's not the case.

No I don't know anything about that mod specifically but it would be amazing to see the full scale tests that must have been carried out with actual WWI aircraft and real Lewis guns to validate all the physics involved. Or that someone built a historically correct Dr.I and pulled Gs till the wings came off and incorporated that data. Fascinating. :-P

[SharpeXB]

Are people confusing "Mods" with "User Created Content" ???

They're confusing User Generated Content with hacking the game to convert it into every individual's definition of what it should be.

 

[Edited]

Edited February 22, 2015 by Bearcat

[Rama]

They're confusing User Generated Content with hacking the game to convert it into every individual's definition of what it should be.

No. The list of mods given by Feathered has nothing to do with hacks, since none of them were modifying the game code.

If you want to use the word "hack", then use it for what it's appropriate.

 

Less like GI Joe and more like Mr. Potato Head

This also is totally uneeded in this discussion.

[SharpeXB]

It seems that Sharpe simply defends whatever the developers have [Edited] decided is the best thing for the game, irrespective of whether the rest of the customer base agrees or not.

No I just assume the dev team has reasons for what they do and I trust their judgement

[Bearcat]

If this trend continues this thread will be lockl

 

Are people confusing "Mods" with "User Created Content" ???

 

The original IL-2 didn't have mods for 6 or 7 years.. No body complained back then and the game was highly successful. People in this thread are acting like IL-2 should have never been a commercial success and that they would never had even bought it and supported it.

 

If you think the original IL-2 up until the later part of 1946 was so bad before the modding came along, did you only start playing in 2008 or 2009? Was it not worth purchasing and supporting until that point?

 

I am ultimately confused by most of the responses in this thread.

 

 

Don't be confused.. IL2 was mod free for some time because that is the way that the devs wanted it and until it was hacked that remained so... RoF has a methodology of using mods... Many see no reason why BoS which id based on the same engine should not be the same.

 

Look guys.. this thread should not devolve into a debate on whether mods are good or bad... That is a moot point because it is obvious that mods can be both. Please try to keep this thread on topic with mods as they relate to BoS/RoF.... IL2 has nothing to really do with this discussion..

[Feathered_IV]

I hope the thread won't get locked. There have been some very reasoned posts on the issue and I wouldn't like for them to be lost. The creation of mods and the freedom to personalize the in-game experience is a huge aspect of enjoying flight sims for me. I really do not want to loose it.

[BladeMeister]

I think that while it is logical to use much of your RoF experience when determining what to add or not add to BoS and beyond, I do believe that those choices should be carefully considered before coming to a final decision.

 

In this case I think it is a mistake.

 

WWII is far more popular than WWI will ever be when it comes to CFSs.

 

That needs to be taken into consideration. Also you need to consider that given the age of BoS and it's current stage in it's life cycle it is way too early to even speculate on what the community can or cannot.. or will or will not bring to the table for BoS as the sim is just too new and the tools are not yet available. Zak you guys need to consider that there is already a pretty prolific group of folks capable of making all kinds of mods for the two other IL2 offerings and they have proven their abilities and their creativity. To toss out that option entirely before it can even be undertaken would be a colossal blunder and only serve to add to the list of "What are they thinking?!?!" .

 

I hope that you reconsider.

 

I don't know how you folks come to the decisions that you do or what you use to determine the steps you take along this journey.. but whatever it is you need to seriously consider changing it because you are confusing the heck out of your customer base when in reality it is a no brainer and should not be as difficult as you guys are making it.

 

While it is true that we flight simmers can be a persnickity, opinionated, rude, spoiled, selfish and nasty lot at times.. finding out the basics of what we want is not hard. I have said it often and I will repeat it here as well... 

 

OPTIONS + USER MADE CONTENT = A SUCCESSFUL SIM

 

Look at what is already on the table and stick to that formula as best you can when considering the future of BoS and the directions you want to go in. The wheel has already been invented.. roll with it.

 

 

Indeed...

 

Wow, we have had our differences BC, even some pissing matches, but you hit the nail on the head here. It seems to be one step forward and 2 steps back. 1C/777, this isn't rocket science, open up the graphics options along with the preset graphics options, release your FMB, include a Mods on option, make some immersive Historical SP content and Campaigns , allow Coop peer hosting while you are developing new content for sale. Look at the success of IL2 1946 and look what is still keeping it alive, continued 3rd party patches and the MOD COMMUNITY.  Use the clearly successful example ot IL2FB - Il2 1946 to present and BOS may succeed in a long life. Continue with the past and current nonsensical decisions being made now and well......  I think it is pretty clear where that will lead you.

 

S!Blade<><

Edited February 22, 2015 by BladeMeister

[Original_Uwe]

SharpeXB, [edited].

Ditto everything Bearcat and blade said.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Rama
removed insulting comments

[SharpeXB]

Look at the success of IL2 1946 and look what is still keeping it alive, continued 3rd party patches and the MOD COMMUNITY. 

BoS doesn't need to be "kept alive" by modding. It has a development team actively working on it.

[Scott_Steiner]

A mod is nothing but a "User created content"

 

No it isn't. User created content was put official into the game by Maddox for years in an official manner, that is not the same as Modding.

[BladeMeister]

BoS doesn't need to be "kept alive" by modding. It has a development team actively working on it.

I will only address you once because ignorance annoys me. I did not say that BOS needs to be kept alive(although, with many more decisions like this it will be beyond resuscitation).  If BOS wants to be around in 10 years from now as the first piece in the IL2 Successor market, I.e BOS, then BOM, then possible BOPacific, then BOAfrica, ....etc then closing the mods on/off door will severely hinder that future business model. Soon, at this rate SharpeXB, you will be the only one praising BOS still and 1C/777 will be looking for jobs.

[SharpeXB]

User created content was put official into the game by Maddox for years in an official manner

Isn't that the same thing 1CGS is proposing to do? If that's the case then how is that wrong when it's how the original series was managed?

[SharpeXB]

I will only address you once because ignorance annoys me. I did not say that BOS needs to be kept alive(although, with many more decisions like this it will be beyond resuscitation).  If BOS wants to be around in 10 years from now as the first piece in the IL2 Successor market, I.e BOS, then BOM, then possible BOPacific, then BOAfrica, ....etc then closing the mods on/off door will severely hinder that future business model. Soon, at this rate SharpeXB, you will be the only one praising BOS still and 1C/777 will be looking for jobs.

According to what people say here, the original IL-2 series was not actually "modded" until it was no longer supported. That stage hasn't arrived for BoS. It's a little early to say it's "beyond resuscitation".

[Feathered_IV]

Sharpe, we seem to be in a situation where the inclusion of a Mods-on mode is of very little importance to yourself, but is of tremendous importance to people like me.  You are in a win/win situation in that you do not have anything loose either way if an RoF-style arrangement were implemented.  If I may ask, would you mind letting us have this one so that we can put our case to the developers and get the most enjoyment that we can from the game too?

[BladeMeister]

I will only address you once because ignorance annoys me. I did not say that BOS needs to be kept alive(although, with many more decisions like this it will be beyond resuscitation).  If BOS wants to be around in 10 years from now as the first piece in the IL2 Successor market, I.e BOS, then BOM, then possible BOPacific, then BOAfrica, ....etc then closing the mods on/off door will severely hinder that future business model. Soon, at this rate SharpeXB, you will be the only one praising BOS still and 1C/777 will be looking for jobs.

  SpX ,Stop quoting parts of what I wrote.

Edited February 22, 2015 by BladeMeister

[Feathered_IV]

Loft apparently changed his mind at some point. Nothing I can do unfortunately. My partners know my position on this topic.

 

Jason

 

My partner knows too.  She eventually had to tell me to shut up. 

[unreasonable]

Yes I have played RoF for hundreds of hours. The point of bringing up that mod is that it was stated the FM and DM should be locked as far as modding is concerned but it appears that's not the case.

No I don't know anything about that mod specifically but it would be amazing to see the full scale tests that must have been carried out with actual WWI aircraft and real Lewis guns to validate all the physics involved. Or that someone built a historically correct Dr.I and pulled Gs till the wings came off and incorporated that data. Fascinating. :-P

 

On the basis of this post I would have to conclude that not only do you know nothing about "that mod specifically" but also nothing about WW1 aviation in general, or about how historical data has to be interpreted to make sense of events that by their very nature cannot be tested according your arbitrary definition of what is satisfactory.

 

We are talking about putting small caliber MG bullets into structures made of wood and canvas. Bullets hitting a main spar might weaken or even break it, but the target is tiny compared to the pilot's body and the fuel tank/engine area. Vanilla RoF makes the wings the preferred target, which is contrary to everything we know about the period.

 

We have pilot accounts: for instance von Richtofen's reports after each victory, available in English in "Under the guns of the Red Baron" by Norman Franks et al. You should read it. 80 victories is a statistically large sample. In his reports enemy aircraft lost their wings only occasionally: and this was as likely to be because a panicked pilot overstressed his aeroplane, which can also happen easily in RoF, as due to actual battle damage. With the modded DM we can replicate these results.

 

Having a mods-on mode is a way for SP offliners to use mods in a way that does not change their installation to become incompatible with MP play. I find it incomprehensible why you should find that to be undesirable.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

And its also fair to say that once modding began some amazing content was created that added to an already cool game. Mods brought me back to Rof, their simple inclusion allowed me to experience the game in a new manner, i even bought more planes because i wanted to enjoy new dev content along with new mods, it was like twice the game for a single price. Why is it so bad that some want mods? Even if they could alter flight models (which you could not in rof) there is mods on settings. So it cant infultrate the mods off setting, what is it about this that you are failing to understand?

 

The anger many are voicing is that this is yet another feature that has been REMOVED from a perfectly functioning product, that many were anticipating on using. The list is getting longer and longer of unexplained PR nightmares, that make this title less and less appetizing to flight simmers.

 

F11 - removed

Moveable hud - removed

Mods - removed

First person bail out - removed

Customizable (per aircraft curves) - removed

Graphics sliders - removed

 

These are all things that only should ave been kept, but bragged about. These are common sense and functional features that the customers want an explanation for them being removed. This is not a one off incident, this has been what seems to be a concerted effort, to do what, i have no idea. And i fear they have no idea either.

 

Whats worse. Our only voice of reason, Jason, now looks to be resolved to let it happen, and who could blame him. Having to argue with your own team to keep common sense features would drive me to madness. He saved them from failure when he bought knights of the sky, made it RoF then developed a niche in a niche to be a successful sim. Now they turn their backs on him because he is no longer the head hancho for the BoS project. Even though they owe their entire livlihood to him. Jason knows what we want, he fights for the simplest of common features, uphill, upstream. I don't know bow he does it. And now maybe he is to tired to continue.

 

Its our loss.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Hooves_McG

[SharpeXB]

On the basis of this post I would have to conclude that not only do you know nothing about "that mod specifically" but also nothing about WW1 aviation in general, or about how historical data has to be interpreted to make sense of events that by their very nature cannot be tested according your arbitrary definition of what is satisfactory.

 

We are talking about putting small caliber MG bullets into structures made of wood and canvas. Bullets hitting a main spar might weaken or even break it, but the target is tiny compared to the pilot's body and the fuel tank/engine area. Vanilla RoF makes the wings the preferred target, which is contrary to everything we know about the period.

 

We have pilot accounts: for instance von Richtofen's reports after each victory, available in English in "Under the guns of the Red Baron" by Norman Franks et al. You should read it. 80 victories is a statistically large sample. In his reports enemy aircraft lost their wings only occasionally: and this was as likely to be because a panicked pilot overstressed his aeroplane, which can also happen easily in RoF, as due to actual battle damage. With the modded DM we can replicate these results.

 

Having a mods-on mode is a way for SP offliners to use mods in a way that does not change their installation to become incompatible with MP play. I find it incomprehensible why you should find that to be undesirable.

So then why not follow the normal process of submitting research and data to the developer as with the flight model adjustments which have been incorporated due to this type of input? That way you're not creating multiple versions of the game.

But just like so much of the flight model debate, there's no resolution possible for these issues because what you're doing is asking the team to change the core of the game based upon anecdotes.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

No mods? So no HPY-Mod [Historic Performance Yak]..that's a shame    guess i really have to convince the Devs after all.

Stays the question..What will be easier, convince them about the overperformance of the Yak, or convince them how wrong it is not to allow Mods-on? 

[SharpeXB]

No mods? So no HPY-Mod [Historic Performance Yak]..that's a shame    guess i really have to convince the Devs after all.

Stays the question..What will be easier, convince them about the overperformance of the Yak, or convince them how wrong it is not to allow Mods-on? 

So if you can't convince the developers to change the Yak FM there should be a mod for it?

[II./JG77_Manu*]

So if you can't convince the developers to change the Yak FM there should be a mod for it?

 

definitely. Cliffs of Dover and old IL2 fixed plenty of plane FMs with their Mods. By the way, they are also used in multiplayer in these games. 

[SharpeXB]

definitely. Cliffs of Dover and old IL2 fixed plenty of plane FMs with their Mods. By the way, they are also used in multiplayer in these games.

 

Ok well now I'm completely against the idea of having mods in the game if what they'll be used for is to hack the flight models of all the aircraft. That will lead to complete anarchy where every player with a bone to pick about the FM will just go off and create their own game. That's a total disaster.

[Scott_Steiner]

Isn't that the same thing 1CGS is proposing to do? If that's the case then how is that wrong when it's how the original series was managed?

Yes, that is the point I am making. Yet somehow many people posting in this thread are saying IL-2 supported unofficial mods you could drop into the game, which was never the case.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Ok well now I'm completely against the idea of having mods in the game if what they'll be used for is to hack the flight models of all the aircraft. That will lead to complete anarchy where every player with a bone to pick about the FM will just go off and create their own game. That's a total disaster.

 

why do you care what the players make with their own game? Are you so megalomaniac that you wanna control how each and every person enjoys this game? Well, i am out of words..