Why I still dislike Il-2 CloD as a Bf109 Pilot

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Its not a matter of asking as pilots are subjective and often don't dare this days to push the airplanes to the limits as that would potentially lead to the loss of the airplane. Its a matter of aerodynamics. And btw. I read as many German opinions that they could turn inside of Spitfire, as British, Czech or Polish pilots saying they could easily turn inside of Bf 109. Often that was not the matter of aircraft but the tactical situation, load of the airplanes, etc. 

German pilots mention they could turn inside, but do they mention if they turned inside in combat or they were making a sustained turns with Spitfires ? Do they mention that flying over Britain (London for example) they burnt large part of the fuel they carried, making them lighter ? 

 

In CloD I can easily turn inside of Spitfire when maneuvering (it would be instantaneous turn), but cant keep with it in sustained turn. That's how I've heard it was and that's how I expected it to be. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

"During what was later called the 'Battle of Britain', we flew the Messerschmitt Bf109E. The essental difference from the Spitfire Mark I flown at the time by the RAF was that the Spitfire was less maneuverable in the rolling plane. with its shorter wings (2 metres less wingspan) and its square-tipped wings, the Bf 109 was more maneuverable and slightly faster. (It is of interest that the English later on clipped the wings of the Spitfire.) The Bf 109s also had leading edge slots. when the 109 was flown, advertently or inadvertently, too slow, the slots shot forward out of the wing, sometimes with a loud bang which could be heard above the noise of the engine. Many times the slots coming out frightened young pilots when they flew the Bf 109 for the first time in aerial combat. One often flew near the stalling speed in combat, not only when flying straight and level but especially when turning and climbing. Sometimes the slots would suddenly fly out with a bang as if one had been hit, especially when one throttled back to bank steeply. Indeed many fresh young pilots thought they were pulling very tight turns even when the slots were still closed against the wing. For us, the more experienced pilots, real maneuvering only started when the slots were out. for this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them."

 

This is from "Messerschmitt Bf 109 At War" by Armand van Ishoven, page 58, "Fighting the Spitfire," by Erwin Leykauf, BOB 109 E pilot:

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Yes yes, I read it. More than 30 times, I read it on Il 2 1946 forums and Il-2 CloD and AH2 forums. 

 

Can you define and specify this for me please ?

 

 

I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.

 

To quote something known, are you familiar with this report ?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/109-spit-hurri-turn.pdf

There is also one more thing,  the lack of rudder trim on the 109 would make it difficult to turn in one direction at higher speeds particularly, in combination with the heavy elevator. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I know this report, yes. It mentions uneven opening of the slats and doesn't mention subvariant (apparently and early E-model since he had to manually adjust pitch).

The British tests suffer often from using damaged improperly maintained machines (how should they know any better if they weren't trained on them and didn't know what to watch out for, including Slat lubrication and controlling ease of movement and other important stuff like properly aligned ailerons on Fw190s which screwed up their testresults)

I like to refer people to this page which collected quotes about the 109 from all sources, allied and axis. It was collected by a bunch of finnish Bf109 enthusiasts and I find it quite informative. http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#testflights

Edited February 18, 2015 by myfabi94

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well here is one example of the extreme difference in test results:

 

The German tests were done at combat cruise and conclude: Smallest turning radius without flaps was 170 meters, 125 meters with flaps.

Turn times for Bf109 in german tests were 18.92 seconds at a radius of 203 meters.

In a diving turn the German tests concluded 11.5 seconds for 50m/s dive and a radius of 190m.

 

British Comparative Tests between Spitfire and Hurricane concluded

Spitifre turn time was 19 seconds at 696ft radius/212 meters at 133mph IAS and

and now for the BIG SURPRISE: Bf109 results were: 270m turn radius and 25 seconds at 129 mph IAS and 2.1g

 

If you ask me there is something completely dorked in one of the tests, guess who I think fucked up? I'm quite confident that the tested Bf109E was a complete Dork and I don't know what the french did to it.

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109E_Baubeschreibung/109E3_Baubeschreibung.html#109E_turnradius

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-I.html

[Chuck_Owl]

You know, fabi, you should go to the ATAG forums and share these informations with Buzzsaw if you're so absolutely sure they porked up this one. He's the TF expert regarding flight models, and I'm sure he'll appreciate a technical discussion of the sort. 

 

Right now, it looks like you're going on a Volkswagen forum to say how much you think Hondas s*ck. Not very effective.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

You know, fabi, you should go to the ATAG forums and share these informations with Buzzsaw if you're so absolutely sure they porked up this one. He's the TF expert regarding flight models, and I'm sure he'll appreciate a technical discussion of the sort. 

 

Right now, it looks like you're going on a Volkswagen forum to say how much you think Hondas s*ck. Not very effective.

Yeah, it kinda derailed. Lack of foresight on my side.

[indiaciki]

Just landed the 109 i CloD... way too easy. 

[SOLIDKREATE]

And yet some in CloD have no problems with the 109 or shooting down Spits .... case in point Mr X ... a machine is merrily as good as the man flying it .... 

 

 

Chief

 

 

This video made go back and fire up CloD! I learned a lot watching this man shoot up Spits.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

One of my Great Grand Uncles is year 1920 (94 now) and he actually flew a Bf109E-4B (with Constant speed Prop) in one of the secondary, rookie fighter units where he got lots of flying time and little enemy contact, and he describes turning basically like this: You had two stages of a turn, you had pull very hard on the stick when you were in cruise and he soon learned to coordinate every turn with trim. It would become very unsettled and loud and then the slats would open with a loud bang when you were still going fast. They never opened evenly and so you would be thrown around in the cockpit but the biggest mistake was to let go of the stick because that could throw your aim completely off and even trigger a spin. So if you held the stick against all your instinct the stick would become very soft around the elevator axis and you lost a bit of control and everything softened up but was also less effective. The slats had the effect, more than on the later models, of "sucking" you into the turn and it wouldn't really want to stop and you had to actually push the stick to get out of a turn again. If you did it right you could turn extremely tight, especially if you pushed the engine hard and turned the flaps crank half a revolution. 3 of his claims are Spitfires , 2 of which happened in the BoB, and he claims they were all 8-gun Spits, and he was able to turn with all of them using this tactic, at any altitude, while his Schwarm bounced them.

His later confirmed claims are mainly P-40s and a number of heavy fighters and Bombers.

He was credited with at least 9 1/3 airkills, his Schwarm shared at least 30 airkills,  most of which he shared with other Pilots of his Staffel, by mid 1944 when he crashlanded and was taken POW in France.

 

 

"During what was later called the 'Battle of Britain', we flew the Messerschmitt Bf109E. The essental difference from the Spitfire Mark I flown at the time by the RAF was that the Spitfire was less maneuverable in the rolling plane. with its shorter wings (2 metres less wingspan) and its square-tipped wings, the Bf 109 was more maneuverable and slightly faster. (It is of interest that the English later on clipped the wings of the Spitfire.) The Bf 109s also had leading edge slots. when the 109 was flown, advertently or inadvertently, too slow, the slots shot forward out of the wing, sometimes with a loud bang which could be heard above the noise of the engine. Many times the slots coming out frightened young pilots when they flew the Bf 109 for the first time in aerial combat. One often flew near the stalling speed in combat, not only when flying straight and level but especially when turning and climbing. Sometimes the slots would suddenly fly out with a bang as if one had been hit, especially when one throttled back to bank steeply. Indeed many fresh young pilots thought they were pulling very tight turns even when the slots were still closed against the wing. For us, the more experienced pilots, real maneuvering only started when the slots were out. for this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them."

 

This is from "Messerschmitt Bf 109 At War" by Armand van Ishoven, page 58, "Fighting the Spitfire," by Erwin Leykauf, BOB 109 E pilot:

 

I'm immersed in reading your posts. Thank you as I love, even at my ripe old age, to learn something new. And I agree with Chuck in that you should share your thoughts with Buzz over in the ATAG forums. You might instigate change.

 

Chief

[II./JG27_Rich]

This video made go back and fire up CloD! I learned a lot watching this man shoot up Spits.

Like Sektre says

 

Listen to Ape's little lecture at the end starting at 27:30, Some of us may feel a little foolish after hearing it.

 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I always compare planes against each other. That's how you establish differences. I wouldn't complain if I felt the Spitifre wasn't Overperforming on the Horizontal plane, while underperforming in a number of others. I don't think the Spitfire is accurate either in a number of ways. A couple of nice noises and Vibrations and effects don't make the FMs more realistic however.

[indiaciki]

Like Sektre says

 

Listen to Ape's little lecture at the end starting at 27:30, Some of us may feel a little foolish after hearing it.

 

 

 

Very wise words ))

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Very wise words ))

"farer, farer" I'm German and I'm in pain listeing to germans speak english.

[Lusekofte]

And that's exactly what you hear people saying who fly them today. All of them will say that's it is more demanding and requires a bit more concentration than Spits and similars, but when flown right could turn with almost all other fighters, outclimb most, but wasn't very strong in high speed roll rate.

I think CloD displays them as the Brits saw them, basically flying trucks and I disagree. I should be able to follow the Spitfire into manouvers and come out alive the other end. There are enough german Pilots reports of them outturning enemy Spitifires and even Hurries (most likely later, heavy models)

 

The 109 might be able to turn with a Spit but it cannot possibly keep on doing it. 

Sustained turn rate is much better in a Spit.

The one thing that prevent a combat flight simulator being a real simulator is the necessity of balance in gameplay. I think COD have done this excellent without too much scarifies in terms of historical facts. This is much like a FM discussion, we will never agree on all points, but I can see your points.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The 109 might be able to turn with a Spit but it cannot possibly keep on doing it. 

Sustained turn rate is much better in a Spit.

The one thing that prevent a combat flight simulator being a real simulator is the necessity of balance in gameplay. I think COD have done this excellent without too much scarifies in terms of historical facts. This is much like a FM discussion, we will never agree on all points, but I can see your points.

I think people underestimate the effect the large slats had on the early models. They allowed an airplane with a wingloading of 160kg/m2 a Landing Speed (not Stall, just landing) of 125kph. Stall was around 110kph, lower than the Spitfire with flaps. It could slug it out low and slow for a long time. The Spitfire had a higher Wingloading and thinner Profile than the Hurricane so it wasn'T as good in a turn, and the wing twist caused high drag in tight turns due to the inner wing section stalling.

[indiaciki]

Do you like the DCS 109 k-4? Just curious....

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Do you like the DCS 109 k-4? Just curious....

Nope, It's weird, lot's of weird

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

Listen to Ape's little lecture at the end starting at 27:30, Some of us may feel a little foolish after hearing it.

 

 

This is worth a listen. Thanks for sharing.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

This is worth a listen. Thanks for sharing.

The only reason I don't suck completely in CloD is exactly that.

[Catseye]

 

I think CloD displays them as the Brits saw them, basically flying trucks and I disagree. I should be able to follow the Spitfire into manouvers and come out alive the other end. There are enough german Pilots reports of them outturning enemy Spitifires and even Hurries (most likely later, heavy models)

 

You make a lot of assumptions based upon hearsay and draw conclusions with your term "I think", when in fact you know nothing of the TF development process in establishing the parameters of both the Spit & BF109, nor do you have the specifics of each aircaft in your portfolio on which to base a cojent argument.

 

Without getting too far into details: The TF modelling is established through speciifics from original documents on the aircraft. There is no "guessing" or assumptions made. Extensive performance testing by model type which includes flight dynamics dependant on air density (altitude), engine performance, wing loading, weight and much much more. The testing was done through months and months to get the aircraft to perform according to the extensive factual details made available and plugged into the code available. This was not easy!!

 

It is as accurate as the CLOD model will permit at this time.

 

But . . . . much more tweaking is taking place for TF 5.0 and anomalies that have been proved by documentation are being adjusted including changes being made through more understanding of the coding.

 

If you want to understand more about how this all took place, incuding reading many posts such as yours and the explanations and detailed discussion on them - go to the ATAG forums and look up Team Fusion. This should help you a great deal with your assumptions.

[BlackDevil]

Stalls and spins in CloD have been stupid scripts from the beginning. I guess they are basically the old routines from first IL2.

 

"It is as accurate as the CLOD model will permit at this time." That is the problem. And I would be astonished, if the spins feel any better with TF5.

Edited February 26, 2015 by BlackDevil

[JG4_Continuo]

Stalls and spins in CloD have been stupid scripts from the beginning. I guess they are basically the old routines from first IL2.

 

"It is as accurate as the CLOD model will permit at this time." That is the problem. And I would be astonished, if the spins feel any better with TF5.

 

You have claimed that since forever, still I have never seen a scriptet stall in Cliffs (as a multiplayer only). Show me one please...

Edited February 26, 2015 by JG4_Continuo

[heinkill]

Back on topic...

 

Yep, Sleipnir! Full points Talek!

 

 

PS Eight legged horse can turn inside Spit anyday. Proven in secret Nazi test nr 101Funf

 

H

Edited March 2, 2015 by heinkill

[Bearcat]

 

Skip Holm interview about Bf-109

 

109 turning aginst P51 and Spit

 

That was interesting... very.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Back on topic...

 

Yep, Sleipnir! Full points Talek!

 

 

PS Eight legged horse can turn inside Spit anyday. Proven in secret Nazi test nr 101Funf

 

H

 

Sorry I only count 6 .....

 

Chief

[unreasonable]

Sorry I only count 6 .....

 

Chief

Which is not a big enough sample to draw any conclusions.

[heinkill]

Yes but this is from the Icelandic archives to which only I have access.

[Lusekofte]

Kind of funny all this, I currently fly sim´s very little, when I do I fly BOS. To me it just feels better. The 109 in this game feel worse than the 109 in cod.

If I would waist my time flying 109 I would choose cod any day, in all aspects. Bos make it so easy to win , cod it is simply how you fly it that determine the outcome of the fight.

I have learned how to survive 50 % of the attacks from a 109 in BOS, since the gunner in a PE 2 actually can do some damage, I cannot continue after the fight, but at best return to base. Flying a Blennie in cod with a 109 in your tail you got no chance. 

I cannot say what is the most historical scenario of these two. 

Both sim give a sense of accomplishment if you fly it for what it is, their shortcomings is mostly buried by its advantages. 

[Dakpilot]

This is not the pilot to take lessons from because of . . . . shall we say the strong assumption of "anomalies" in place. Since TF came online these "anomalies" cannot be introduced and you won't find this pilot flying regularly on TF versions.

Not cool...

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Mikey]

Stalls and spins in CloD have been stupid scripts from the beginning. I guess they are basically the old routines from first IL2.

 

"It is as accurate as the CLOD model will permit at this time." That is the problem. And I would be astonished, if the spins feel any better with TF5.

Really? I have found clod lovely to fly, and i would have to be quite reckless to put my self into a spin, 109's in TF are excellent. have not really flown hurricanes or spitfires though.

[AvengerSeawolf]

Why is she trying to cut the head off her horse?

 Probably the artist wanted to show some  agressive manner in this, supposed the sword is against the enemy.

 

 

Why does the horse have 7 legs?

 This suppose to  show the speed of the horse , not of course that it has 7 legs ( though it might be that too)  but  in high speeds that range of motion is transcribed to many.

 Also artistic expression.

 

And a G-2/G-4 trop with Winter European Camouflage?

That is artistic licence to present it in the fantasy world like this,perhaps the artist liked that shape.

 

 How do I know  or suppose all these ?

 I am an painter artist.

Edited March 31, 2015 by AvengerSeawolf

[TBD79_OD_]

Sounds like you're doing wrong. I find the Bf109E a doddle to fly in CLoD. The Spitfire and the Bf109 are pretty evenly matched. If anything the 109 is just too easy, visibility is excellent, speed is excellent, turning is excellent...I really don't know what you're complaining about.

[II./JG27_Rich]

Sorry I only count 6 .....

 

Chief

Yep ...6

[Cybermat47]

This thread is rather strange. In CloD, I find the Bf-109 to be an excellent plane to hunt Spitfires in, while I find the Spitfire to be hopeless against the Bf-109 (at least with the way I fly the Spit and the situations I'm up against Bf-109s in).

Edited May 21, 2015 by Cybermat47

[Lusekofte]

Well the few times I have been in a Hurricane I am at the climbing stage and have absolutely no chance what so ever. But there are quite few people doing very well indeed in them RAF machines. It is purely how you fight with them and luck. Or might be unlucky encounters. You never fight on the enemies terms, if you do you loose

[Sokol1]

Bf 109 12+ kills in one sortie (on ATAG):

 

 

Same player, in Spit' 6+ kills.

 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Sokol1

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Ah, its Karaya. Its quite normal for him to get a good scores, especially considering how long he is playing CloD.

[Lusekofte]

Him and his squad are quite disciplined and trained, they probably could walk right in on any sim and clean up the server. It is a understanding behind it that makes them good, a tactical thinking

[JG4_Continuo]

Him and his squad are quite disciplined and trained, they probably could walk right in on any sim and clean up the server. It is a understanding behind it that makes them good, a tactical thinking

 

 

Trained in first line.. disciplined... sometimes ;-)

When it comes to Karaya there is a lot of natural talent... we have another pilot with that, JG4_DUI. Nobody really gets what they are doing, even people that have spent way more time in CloD than Karaya and DUI... For some reason, they are just outstanding...