The 109 is awful to fly on my joysticks

[KoN_]

I have been testing my joystick setting and  i find the 109  totally  unpredictable in flight , i have tried lots of different input settings from dead zones  to edge zone to sensativaty , and none seem to work on my worthogs , however i fly the yak or lagg and i can do almost any combat flight manover that i try in the 109   with out any problems at all .

If i try the same manvours in the 109 , i get completely diferent reaction in flight . Flip over , some times the manover can not be completed , ect , i am always fighting my joysticks while flying the 109 . the gun sight is always bouncing all over nearly impossble to make any snap shot . what is going on im at alost . help

[Sokol1]

I bet that people will say that your joystick "FM" is wrong, you need install extension and Force Feedback in it. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Be sure!

 

Or, "n00b!", "learn how to fly!",  "this isn't War Thunder", etc...

 

I've heard them all, and it's all bunk.

[Dakpilot]

Or that control authority is more sensitive on Luftwaffe aircraft, Bf, FW (historical) and will give more input for a given movement on stick, so you will have to be more gentle with inputs to get same result as soviet A/C, therefore it is much easier to create higher AoA and accelerated stall (pain because of lack of physical telltales )

 

Simply stick movement in soviet aircraft does not generate enough G to put the aircraft into problematic flight regime...Russian aircraft agricultural German more advanced fine tuned machines and need a different approach

 

If you drive a Porsche at the limit in a similar style to an Aston Martin you will hit a similar issue  not a good comparison but what the hell

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[II./JG27_Rich]

Be sure!

 

Or, "n00b!", "learn how to fly!",  "this isn't War Thunder", etc...

 

I've heard them all, and it's all bunk.

+1

[KoN_]

Be sure!

 

Or, "n00b!", "learn how to fly!",  "this isn't War Thunder", etc...

 

I've heard them all, and it's all bunk.

Is this pointed at me .

[216th_Jordan]

Is this pointed at me .

 

No, it's not

 

However this post and others did not respond to your post but to imaginary posts that were imagined to appear on this post which could maybe actually happen

 

But apart from that, yes: what Dakpilot said. Some people modded their Warthog with extensions to compensate this effect with a larger stick movement, it actually doesn't seem so difficult if your keen for it

[GP*]

15 cm extension is needed, be sure. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

No, not pointed at you sir.

 

It was in agreement with Sokol1's post, and typically those are the words that the folks who find no fault with BoS toss around when people raise valid concerns about the poor control implementation/absurd stability issues that are

all too evident to anyone with open eyes, and an open mind.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's mostly just experience. Stick with it and you'll be fine soon enough. While I do have the 10 cm extension my Warthog is otherwise unmodded - no curves or dead zones, etc. I flew '46 for years on a CH joystick. I got the Warthog just for BOS and I was a mess for a couple of weeks before it all came together. Still learning, actually. Used combat flaps on the Fw tonight and it was a revelation.

 

Also, do a lot of pattern work and test increasingly difficult maneuvers offline, in the solo QMB, at altitude until you can perform them comfortably in a server or combat situation.

 

Don't despair, your previous experience just needs to be fine tuned a bit for this sim.

 

Also, don't despair. Someone will be along shortly to scream about the FM in one way or another.

Edited February 9, 2015 by HerrMurf

[Feathered_IV]

15 cm extension is needed, be sure.

Oooh, Matron!!!

[LukeFF]

No, not pointed at you sir.

 

It was in agreement with Sokol1's post, and typically those are the words that the folks who find no fault with BoS toss around when people raise valid concerns about the poor control implementation/absurd stability issues that are

all too evident to anyone with open eyes, and an open mind.

 

So, if I have no issues flying the 109 in its current state, does that make me closed-minded and close-eyed? 

[GP*]

Oooh, Matron!!!

Hah! Well played.

[Dakpilot]

So if the aircraft flew exactly the same 'on rails feeling ' from original IL-2 would it be praised?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Mags]

Hello all!

I use this and the Bf 109/ FW190 calmed down. It is a 15 cm extension from our friend Sahaj and
some PVC-tubing I bulit myself. Quite easy to build.

Now the landings and take-offs is much more controllable. No wobbling while manouvering anymore. I was quite confident flying both Bf and FW before, but the difference is still very noticeable.
I think the planes must be modelled after the inputs from a real stick, but I can be wrong here.

Have a nice day, pilots!

 

 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Mags

[PA-Sniv]

I have been testing my joystick setting and  i find the 109  totally  unpredictable in flight , i have tried lots of different input settings from dead zones  to edge zone to sensativaty , and none seem to work on my worthogs , however i fly the yak or lagg and i can do almost any combat flight manover that i try in the 109   with out any problems at all .

If i try the same manvours in the 109 , i get completely diferent reaction in flight . Flip over , some times the manover can not be completed , ect , i am always fighting my joysticks while flying the 109 . the gun sight is always bouncing all over nearly impossble to make any snap shot . what is going on im at alost . help

 

You didn't forget to adjust your horizontal stab (trim), did you?

 

Cheers,

[KoN_]

Thanks for all your replys gents , i am not complaining about FM" i have come on here for some advice or even help , what  i am saying is i can not control the airframe like i can with the yak or lagg on same joystick settings ,and perform the same maneuvers .

But  yes i am sticking with it , i see what you mean now about the extension but im not keen on it and money is tight at the moment , but i will adjust my settings even more when i fly blue side maybe more dead zone higher sensitivity .

  I always trim my airframe before and after take off , but one thing i havnt been doing is testing all work surfaces  before take off on a regular bases . would like to say thanks for all your input and will adjust settings again .

[216th_Jordan]

But  yes i am sticking with it , i see what you mean now about the extension but im not keen on it and money is tight at the moment

 

A homemade extension is surely not expansive But its not a necessity really.

[Sokol1]

A homemade extension is surely not expansive But its not a necessity really.

 

 

Some DIY PVC: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=103809

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Here's an very good old post from ROF addressing concerns over joystick control issues in sims vs RL.  This lead to the implementation of curves for yaw, pitch, roll.

 

http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2564

[Wulf]

It's mostly just experience. Stick with it and you'll be fine soon enough. While I do have the 10 cm extension my Warthog is otherwise unmodded - no curves or dead zones, etc. I flew '46 for years on a CH joystick. I got the Warthog just for BOS and I was a mess for a couple of weeks before it all came together. Still learning, actually. Used combat flaps on the Fw tonight and it was a revelation.

 

Also, do a lot of pattern work and test increasingly difficult maneuvers offline, in the solo QMB, at altitude until you can perform them comfortably in a server or combat situation.

 

Don't despair, your previous experience just needs to be fine tuned a bit for this sim.

 

Also, don't despair. Someone will be along shortly to scream about the FM in one way or another.

 

 

What Murf said.

 

You don't need 'hair' extensions or any of the other stuff being touted to fight in these things.

 

Almost any stick will do well enough, even on the 'tricky' (they're all national socialists aren't they) 'Luftwhiner' machines.  Just  pick one and 'stick' (hahahaha) with it. And remember, other than in extreme situations, flight corrections are achieved in the most part with 'pressure' rather than abrupt stick movements.  Anyway, you'll be fine.  Just get some hours in.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

if i play another sim i now break the joy stick, BOS is sensitive its just something you need to get used to, trust me once u go BOS u wont go back.

 

ps extensions are not needed. Sticks back then were large to help over come forces, hence they are a lever meant for the full arm.

 

If the control system is digital like in a sim or any airbus aircraft all u need is a stck meant for use with the wrist not arm, u can get a lot more control this way. In fact I started playing this with an xbox controller and I was a match for all but the top, double infact because I would make only very lil staby movements with the xbox pad it could be finer than a joystick In some situations

 

PEACE

[==LD==Lemsko]

Here's an very good old post from ROF addressing concerns over joystick control issues in sims vs RL.  This lead to the implementation of curves for yaw, pitch, roll.

 

http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2564

 

non linear curves of course accumulate for a much shorter travel area of a joystick............................but only if you are ALWAYS in perfect trim. if not then you run into even higher over sensitive areas as with a linear axis.

 

add the insane trimming wheel response and voila we have an issue.

[ST_ami7b5]

I have stopped using curves on any axis and increased FFB and "centering force" values (not to be mistaken for "centering string" which I switched off) on my G940.

Much more stable, significantly less wobling, although I have to use more force on my JS at higher speeds... 

[361fundahl]

Yeah they are just touchy.... I love the response really of the f4 with barely any fuel in it and motor at full boost....

[ShamrockOneFive]

I've been learning the 109 in the last few days and I do find it touchy but not unreasonably so. I do find the G-2 feels heavier and a little more steady but that could be placebo. Which 109 is the OP flying and has he tried both because I think I've settled with the G-2 over the F-4 despite the F-4 being the hotter of the two (if I understand correctly).

Edited February 13, 2015 by ShamrockOneFive

[Alkyan]

Using a bit a noise filtering can solve some instability problem's. I used to have huge random movements on some occasions (quite rarely), I though it was air turbulence or something like that. I find out recently it was noise from my joystick, kicking the rudder without any reasons ! Noise filtering fixed it. I guess it was there for all the planes but It wasn't as disturbing on the yack which is less sensitive.

[ShamrockOneFive]

In flying a bit more today I've noticed the Bf109 is capable of a lot more manoeuvring potential even if its sustained turn rate is not quite as impressive as the Yak-1 at speed. I also managed to cause a total structural failure by trying to pull out of a high speed dive that I got myself into. You can't do that with the Yak... the controls aren't effective enough to be able to do that easily.

 

It's taking me a while to adjust but I'm starting to get a fell for the 109 and it really feels like a hunters aircraft - its very capable in nearly every way and when you zoom in on a target you really feel a rush that I don't get with other fighters so far.

[Quax]

Be sure!

 

Or, "n00b!", "learn how to fly!", "this isn't War Thunder", etc...

 

I've heard them all, and it's all bunk.

Pointed at me ? I fly with 40 cm extension

 

....it's all bunk, cause professional BlitzPig says so

Edited February 15, 2015 by Quax

[Bearcat]

I have stopped using curves on any axis and increased FFB and "centering force" values (not to be mistaken for "centering string" which I switched off) on my G940.

Much more stable, significantly less wobling, although I have to use more force on my JS at higher speeds... 

 

I am going to try that...

[BlackDevil]

No curves. They make it easy to fly straight and level, but must lead to overcontrol in a dogfight.

[ST_ami7b5]

Yes, and the stick is really good.

Not so throttle with its rotaries going south after some use.

Pedals are not bad either.

[Sokol1]

 

Not so throttle with its rotaries going south after some use.

 

Because in a ~350$ HOTAS (w/Force Feedback stick) they opt to use 0,10$ potentiometer's and save in ~5 cm of wires...

Opera resume: product discontinued due returns.

[BeastyBaiter]

That's a common problem with all the sticks tbh. Saitek builds wonderful HOTAS's but then for all the throttles, sliders and rotaries, they use pots instead of hall sensors. Why? So they make $0.50 extra profit per $200 HOTAS. Only those with MBA's understand this kind of "logic." And this is where the TM Warthog users all pile on with the Saitek/Logitech is crap nonsense, blissfully ignoring that their HOTAS is built the exact same way.

[BlackDevil]

I tested the 940 once. As I am used to the quality of the FFB2, I had just a short laugh.

[DukeSpookem]

It's mostly just experience. Stick with it and you'll be fine soon enough. While I do have the 10 cm extension my Warthog is otherwise unmodded - no curves or dead zones, etc. I flew '46 for years on a CH joystick. I got the Warthog just for BOS and I was a mess for a couple of weeks before it all came together. Still learning, actually. Used combat flaps on the Fw tonight and it was a revelation.

 

Also, do a lot of pattern work and test increasingly difficult maneuvers offline, in the solo QMB, at altitude until you can perform them comfortably in a server or combat situation.

 

Don't despair, your previous experience just needs to be fine tuned a bit for this sim.

 

Also, don't despair. Someone will be along shortly to scream about the FM in one way or another.

Combat flaps?  Is that a different setting from regular flaps?  I'm assuming that is why I constantly stall in the FW.

[ACG_pezman]

The 190 has combat, takeoff, and landing flaps. I wouldn't use flaps on the 190 unless I need a quick bump in turn performance. Below 300kph combat flaps make you more stable in turns, however above 300kph they make you more unstable and really prevent gaining speed and energy. You can't do like the Russains and pop them out and forget them, in the 190 that will kill you. Actually, anything will kill you in the 190 except coming in fast from above, attacking, then running away like hell. Don't turn, don't climb, just pick a good trajectory and stick to it. The only advantage the 190 has is speed. And flaps kill that one advantage. Plus the 190 will high speed stall on you in a second if you do something it doesn't like.

[DukeSpookem]

That makes sense.  I thought combat flaps were used the entire time.  Thanks for the reply.

[Wulf]

The 190 has combat, takeoff, and landing flaps. I wouldn't use flaps on the 190 unless I need a quick bump in turn performance. Below 300kph combat flaps make you more stable in turns, however above 300kph they make you more unstable and really prevent gaining speed and energy. You can't do like the Russains and pop them out and forget them, in the 190 that will kill you. Actually, anything will kill you in the 190 except coming in fast from above, attacking, then running away like hell. Don't turn, don't climb, just pick a good trajectory and stick to it. The only advantage the 190 has is speed. And flaps kill that one advantage. Plus the 190 will high speed stall on you in a second if you do something it doesn't like.

 

 

Yeah, I agree.  Very few things kill energy and speed in a 190 quite like combat flaps.  At one point I thought they might be the answer but not anymore.  IMO, you're far better off keeping the airframe just as slick as possible for as long as possible.  This won't save you in the end of course but it might just add a couple of minutes to your flying time.    The best advice for budding 190 pilots - fly a 109.  

[TheElf]

Thanks for all your replys gents , i am not complaining about FM" i have come on here for some advice or even help , what  i am saying is i can not control the airframe like i can with the yak or lagg on same joystick settings ,and perform the same maneuvers .

But  yes i am sticking with it , i see what you mean now about the extension but im not keen on it and money is tight at the moment , but i will adjust my settings even more when i fly blue side maybe more dead zone higher sensitivity .

  I always trim my airframe before and after take off , but one thing i havnt been doing is testing all work surfaces  before take off on a regular bases . would like to say thanks for all your input and will adjust settings again .

 

 

Con, don't take anything personally on this forum, it is an eclectic bunch.  Have you mapped the Pitch stabilizer for the German aircraft?  If not trim may be PART of the problem.  I find I am always trimming the pitch in the 109 for a given energy state.  The 109 is a bit of a beast at times, especially at slow speed and high alpha.  Learning to be smooth with it is an acquired skill especially if you are new to the game as it won't necessarily feel like other 109s you may have flown elsewhere.  Murf is right though, time will tell and you'll develop a feel for it.  As an aside the G-2 flies far differently than the F-4.  FYI.