I cannot be a defender of BoS anymore...

[SYN_Vorlander]

These threads are becoming more and more laughable.  

 

+1

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Museums don't fly their aircraft to the max, and for good reason.

Sorry for late response, but surely they'd still have performance figures and flight envelopes. It'd be nice to have multiple sources, is all.

[JtD]

That has never been questionioned. Talking about 1vs1 my statement remains true, I you feel otherwise PM Manfred (and make me more rich - I always bet on Manfred!).

 

Also pls mind the context of what I'm writing. Having a wingman does not make up for bad performance but competition, which again is out of question.

Well, you stated something about an "historically weaker opponent". Historically 1vs1 is irrelevant.

[Solmyr]

Really? Manfred, you have another candidate!

 

Seriously though believe me, the only thign the Fw pilot can do to save his skin is run when fighting a yak on equal terms. I remember me fighting a 190 being 1 km above me. I slowly climbed after him, he saw and BnZ me. I always saw him coming, evaded him with a short and sharp turn and imedently continued climbing whenever he passed me. He at least had 3 attemts before he finally had to run because I was above him.

And no, he hadn't done any crucial errors to this point. He just expected the 190 to win against a historically weaker oppoment.

 

 

So why laughing at me ?

 

What you say doesn't contradict what I did. Generally speaking, the 190 pilot can choose when he's gonna take some risks to try to get his opponent. He always can run, make the fight happening at a higher altitude, and play a psychological game with him until this one does the fault to let his kinetic E going too down in order to get a very difficult, very low efficiency firing window, without the useless ShvaK (because of the range of shoot). It's a game where the first one who makes an error dies.

So if you enlarge a bit your way of analyse, on a "RL" history, what's happening ? The 190 pilot can freely come back to home, and fight again, later, with more combat experience. The Yak pilot, him, could easily not see coming the 190 in the sun for example of course, and will die. Or he's good enough to always anticipate any 190 attack, but he will be harassed again and again, and while he will want to go back home, it's NOT him who decides if the fight is stopped/aborted or not. I don't say he can't survive, of course, but he will not have the decision. In hundreds km range mission. And he has to safe his armement, because his obsessive fear is to not have any bullet to attack/counter-attack anymore, so to defend himself.

And sorry to say, but yes, most of the times I shot down a 190, his pilot had done a fault, and regularly, I think : "If ever this guy hadn't done this choice, I never could have got him."

Edited February 9, 2015 by Solmyr

[sop]

 

And no, he hadn't done any crucial errors to this point. He just expected the 190 to win against a historically weaker oppoment.

Really? thats all you got post a track of this crap focke, sound like pilot error to me.

[Solmyr]

Really? thats all you got post a track of this crap focke, sound like pilot error to me.

 

But his story doesn't even say he had shot him down, so what's the point ?

Edited February 9, 2015 by Solmyr

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

JTD, I have better things to do. Read here and you'll know what I was referring to: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14449-i-cannot-be-defender-bos-anymore/page-4?do=findComment&comment=229951

 

You request others to read carefully so you probably won't have issues doing the same.

Really? thats all you got post a track of this crap focke, sound like pilot error to me.

Sry, I've got no recordings. My GPU is just enought to handle the game, it can't stand a chance while recording though. It may also be worth mentioning this fight happened when the Fw 190's stall module wasn't implemented yet, means it was even a better performing back than.

 

I don't feel like flying the Yak again other than for tetsign purpose since it feels dirty to me. I have barely anything to prove it but there's plenty of things wrong wiht this plane for sure and I don't like that.

So why laughing at me ?

I didn't mean to make it sound like that, sry if you reccieved it that way. What you say is true for real terms indeed. Ingame you can also run away but your freedom of tactical engagement is way more limited though. If you dont have the alt advantage and the yak is equally fast you effectively have nearly no chance to win in a fight against an equal pilot.

 

Strange enought I can perfectly E-Fight Lagg-s and La-5s with the Focke. I can always drag them in a rope a dope and make them stall 300m below me as you would expect if the 190 has an energy advantage and the manouvre is properly executed. Against a Yak, from my expirience, it's russian roulette if he makes a mistake and stalls or ends up above you.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Wulf]

I disagree. He could also get a wingman.

 

 

That's very true, tactically speaking the smallest air fighting unit is always going to be 2.  However, suggesting that adequately debunks the issue is about as useful as saying the 190 isn't being flown correctly.  Yes, you would typically have a wingman in any air fighting engagement, but what happens when everything goes tits-up and your wingman gets the killed?   What happens if you get separated in a fight, as must have happened all the time, and you find yourself on your own? As things currently stand you may as well put your Luger in your mouth cos if you're in a 190 chances are you aren't going home.  And what if the other guy has a wingman as in most cases he will have; what then?  Real life is always much more messy than the theoretical one we should all be living.

[von_Tom]

Seriously though believe me, the only thign the Fw pilot can do to save his skin is run when fighting a yak on equal terms.

This is what I do, but I usually don't wait until equal terms unless I am forced to it. Some VVS pilots are persistent though. I tend to head for cloud and very slowly climb so I can orientate myself then it's a slooooow turn onto the right heading.

 

I also try never to be alone but this can be hard to arrange.

 

von Tom

[Wulf]

So why laughing at me ?

 

What you say doesn't contradict what I did. Generally speaking, the 190 pilot can choose when he's gonna take some risks to try to get his opponent. He always can run, make the fight happening at a higher altitude, and play a psychological game with him until this one does the fault to let his kinetic E going too down in order to get a very difficult, very low efficiency firing window, without the useless ShvaK (because of the range of shoot). It's a game where the first one who makes an error dies.

So if you enlarge a bit your way of analyse, on a "RL" history, what's happening ? The 190 pilot can freely come back to home, and fight again, later, with more combat experience. The Yak pilot, him, could easily not see coming the 190 in the sun for example of course, and will die. Or he's good enough to always anticipate any 190 attack, but he will be harassed again and again, and while he will want to go back home, it's NOT him who decides if the fight is stopped/aborted or not. I don't say he can't survive, of course, but he will not have the decision. In hundreds km range mission. And he has to safe his armement, because his obsessive fear is to not have any bullet to attack/counter-attack anymore, so to defend himself.

And sorry to say, but yes, most of the times I shot down a 190, his pilot had done a fault, and regularly, I think : "If ever this guy hadn't done this choice, I never could have got him."

 

 

Well Solmyr, I've seen you fighting online and you seem to do just fine (in fact you've shot me down many times) so why not have a crack at Manfred in his smelly old Yak?   

 

I'd be really pleased if you gave him a good thumping actually cos I still feel that I owe him one, if you know what I mean .  So go on then, have a go m8 ....

[JtD]

I totally agree with Solmyr. Boldly put, you can put 10 Manfreds in Yaks against a single me in the Fw190. They won't be able to kill me, because it is my choice to fight, or not to. I'd guess 10 me's in Fw190 would get single Manfred in a Yak fairly quickly, though.

 

If you really think that the "better aircraft" has anything to do with the outcome of a 1vs1 duel on a dogfight server, I recommend you to think again.

Edited February 9, 2015 by JtD

[Wulf]

I totally agree with Solmyr. Boldly put, you can put 10 Manfreds in Yaks against a single me in the Fw190. They won't be able to kill me, because it is my choice to fight, or not to. I'd guess 10 me's in Fw190 would get single Manfred in a Yak fairly quickly, though.

 

If you really think that the "better aircraft" has anything to do with the outcome of a 1vs1 duel on a dogfight server, I recommend you to think again.

 

 

If that is directed at 'me', then yes, I do think the "better aircraft has [something] to do with the outcome in a 1 v 1 dual ...".  I also think that 'better car' has something to do with the outcome of a Rally or F1 event.

 

Pilot competence like driver competence is just one factor.  In some instances a high level of competence will be sufficient to overcome a performance deficit (assuming the other pilot isn't much good) and in others it won't be.  Much depends on the relative performance of the pilots/drivers and the relative performance of the machines they're using.

 

Frankly, if you don't believe that I'd suggest you take your ideas and try and sell them to one of the F1 teams because if you're right, ( )you're going to save them millions in development costs.

[Solmyr]

Well Solmyr, I've seen you fighting online and you seem to do just fine (in fact you've shot me down many times) so why not have a crack at Manfred in his smelly old Yak?   

 

I'd be really pleased if you gave him a good thumping actually cos I still feel that I owe him one, if you know what I mean .  So go on then, have a go m8 ....

 

Seems I didn't get the point of the "Manfred". You know, English isn't my native language, and sometimes, I believe I understood, and may answer a bit too quickly.   

 

But if you talk about me, in a 190, or even a 109 at this moment, shooting down a known Yak pilot named "Manfred", (or if it's a joke to talk about some good Yak pilots), so you can wait a long time before I could do better than you bud, because, once again, I'm very few experienced in these beasts, but you are good at this job I believe. 

 

Maybe february will be the month I try to get some german plane skills though..

Edited February 9, 2015 by Solmyr

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It's enought JTD. This is my last response to you, so read carefully and listen.

 

The discussion was about historical advanatges of the 190 in terms of digfighting. No one talked about numerical superiority as it doesn't say anythign about performance. The fihgting style Fw 190 pilots could use in reality doesnt work out in BoS.

 

I'm talking about basic and pure performance, not about how I fly it ingame (you don't even know me so why make up assumptions?). I can beat 2 109s in my lagg if they fly stupidly and dont work togetehr, is that a valid argument about it's performance than? Definetly not.

 

If you like to continue your argumentation about things I didn't even mention nor contribute anything to the initial discussion feel free to send me a PM. I won't bother to answer in here only to give you more reason for derailing things and putting words in my mouth.

 

You are a true forum warrior.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Sokol1]

[taleks]

Just stopped here to say sorry, if anyone asked me anything in this post, but I've missed it and not answered.

Right now there is some kind of unlockocalypse for several players and I've no time for reading this thread.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Just stopped here to say sorry, if anyone asked me anything in this post, but I've missed it and not answered.

Right now there is some kind of unlockocalypse for several players and I've no time for reading this thread.

Don't bother, it got dragged way of topic, no need for going through all that stuff for you or other Devs. I will PM Han in the coming days

[JtD]

It's enought JTD. This is my last response to you, so read carefully and listen.

I've read Solmyrs post very carefully and agreed with it. It's beyond me why you have a problem with that. Maybe you should read his posts again, for simplicities sake here's the thing that started everything "it's almost impossible to shoot down a 190 on rather equal terms". And it is.

 

The discussion was about historical advanatges of the 190 in terms of digfighting. No one talked about numerical superiority as it doesn't say anythign about performance. The fihgting style Fw 190 pilots could use in reality doesnt work out in BoS.

I'm talking about what makes an aircraft a good fighter. If you want to limit yourself to some close corner duel scenario, feel free, but don't attack me for not doing the same. 

 

I'm talking about basic and pure performance,

So am I.

 

not about how I fly it ingame (you don't even know me so why make up assumptions?).

I never did, you on the other hand resort to name calling.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

This is my hobby, just as it is yours. I come here in the increasingly despairing hope of having a laugh and finding things of interest to me. Unfortunately the balance of forum participants seems to have shifted away from people who play and post for fun, but I digress.

 

Now had I made some aggressive or highly personal or even off-topic comment, well maybe I'd reconsider my words, but I will not do so in this case as it was a light-hearted comment on previous content in this thread, as well as a reference to similar discussions from the past.

 

Ok well i don't come in the forum to have fun or a laugh. If i wanna have fun i play the game. If i wanna have fun chatting with someone, i chat with my friends, and not with some people where i know nothing about but an alias. 

I come to the forum, when i am playing the game, and realizing that something is wrong with it. I always approach things in a way, that i might be missing something, and i open a topic, to get sure that i am right, or to have some profound discussions about the matter. But that's barely what happens (there are some rare exceptions).

 

Most of the time beside getting encouragement from people that either have a clue or just feel or think that i am right, i get attacked from clueless people or told how wrong i am, without any reasonable explanation. I get called luftwhiner or nazi (yeah yeah, nobody called it in my "face"), or i get mocked, again with no explanation, nor even a discussion about the original topic. I have barely (in case of the 190 or the Yak never) seen anybody who tries to find a reason, why i might be wrong with my assumption. The closest explanations i have seen is, that "the plane is flown wrong", or "the Devs will have their own sources". But only a few people try to even discuss in a form like this, most just quarry out their populist anti-german(-plane) messages. Most of them apparently don't even read the whole topic post, when you look at their "answers".

It's really not possible to discuss reasonable in this forum about issues like this (FM), because those nonsense posts water the discussion down in such a manner, that you really have to seek for reasonable posts in between.

A topic like this, or the last one i opened just shows clearly, that the (knowledge and sanity) level from most people who feel the need to contribute to those discussions is to low, to have a sensible debate. 

In the future i will refrain from opening further topics or discussions with a polarizing common opinion, because it just drags to many people into, who just try to discredit you in any way possible, to undermine your original statement.

[Feathered_IV]

Sounds like you need your own sub-forum 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Aaand here is the perfect example. Thanks for providing

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Well said Celestiale. I feel you

(I'm sry for my part of distraction in this thread btw).

[Feathered_IV]

Aaand here is the perfect example. Thanks for providing

 

I'm serious.  You would have a one stop place to present your stuff and discuss it with others of a similar bent.  The devs could look into it as they wish.  You would be free of the trappings of "fun" and other social hindrances.  Other members who come to General discussion will not be presented with your relentless pedantry, and as a result will not be tempted to bite back in frustration.  I am quite serious.  The chart monkeys need their own sub-forum.

[ST_ami7b5]

+1 .... to my ignore list.

 

(just 2 members so far)

Edited February 10, 2015 by ST_ami7b5

[Yakdriver]

Just stopped here to say sorry, if anyone asked me anything in this post, but I've missed it and not answered.

Right now there is some kind of unlockocalypse for several players and I've no time for reading this thread.

 

Man, you made me laugh out loud.

fun post of the day!

Way to go! Thumbs up!

[ST_ami7b5]

@ Celestiale:

 

Good post.

[Mac_Messer]

I totally agree with Solmyr. Boldly put, you can put 10 Manfreds in Yaks against a single me in the Fw190. They won't be able to kill me, because it is my choice to fight, or not to. I'd guess 10 me's in Fw190 would get single Manfred in a Yak fairly quickly, though.

 

If you really think that the "better aircraft" has anything to do with the outcome of a 1vs1 duel on a dogfight server, I recommend you to think again.

I`m why you take a 1v1 df server approach here. Yes, you take it. In real WWII there was no such thing. Most of the time, the pilots had their objectives which included covering ground attack, air attack, bomber escort, Jabo attack and so on. Why you think that any of this "will to disengege at any given time" applies to such sorties is beyond me. There was rarely any time one could just go home. There were orders you had to execute. None of the type of sorties implied exiting the combat area at will. No, you had to stay there till the job was done or the leader said to abort or...everyone was dead.  The FW190 has poor energy retention, has nasty stall characteristics, moderate climb rate, poor horizontal maneuvering abilities. So you sweep down from 6000m to 2000-3000m, perform two, three quick attacks (none of which include disengaging at will) and you find yourself cospeed and coalt with Yaks/La`s, no to mention possible additional VVS fighter groups above you. In such situation, even a light IL2 can take a jab at the Focke. In WWII there was rearely any "choice to fight or not", you arrived at the scene you are meant to, you do your thing, everyting else is second job.

 

It really takes just two yaks to kill a Focke easily. One Yak engages in pursuit, other climbs to gain alt on the Wulf. You stay in such a fight, you`re done for. It`s a rtb for you unless you choose to run for 15km, go climb back to 6000m, go back to same combat area. Which is hopeless anyway since there`s a Yak group down low and one,two yaks coalt with you, waiting just for you.

[Blutaar]

Didnt read the whole thread so what!

 

I am really disapointed about BoS, the Aircraft handling feels so wrong in german planes and so good in soviet planes, like 2 different Sims.

 

I really liked BoS in the EA, then thinks get wrong and with the FW released, i realised that its the same bullshit like before, just a poor plane.

 

Maybe its the best to concentrate on other games like i did since the release of BoS, just tested the last patch but the FW is just a shitplane in this sim.

[StG2_Manfred]

As my name was mentioned several times above, I want to say a few words:

 

Firstly, I'm not claiming to be some sort of special pilot. My statement, which I proofed at least two times, is, that the 190 is NOT competitve. Even if flown correctly (no hard turns, extend after you attack run, etc.). People say or answer this, but apparently they do not fly or at least fight in the 190.

 

 

Secondly, imo it's not possible to dictate a 1vs1 fight in a 190, because you can only run away and hope your opponent is not following you. On a crowded server it might work, because somebody shoots your pursuer or he's getting distracted. But that is not dictating....

 

If your pursuer continously following you, you can try to extend as far as possible (you still should be able to see him behind you, therefore you cannot run forever...) but as soon as you try to make a wide turn to turn into him you are loosing too much energy and in the outcome your "advantage" from the separation is completely lost.

 

This could be solved for example with the following approach. If the vision would be better and the highspeed stall would be little reduced, so you could turn into your opponent just a bit harder, it would maybe possible to dictate the fight. Also the ability to fly a proper scissors maneuvre would profit then. And this could be done without tweaking highspeed, acceleration or climbing of the 190.

 

 

Thirdly, teamwork is of course always best strategy, we do not need to discuss about.

[Mac_Messer]

The discussion was about historical advanatges of the 190 in terms of digfighting. No one talked about numerical superiority as it doesn't say anythign about performance. The fihgting style Fw 190 pilots could use in reality doesnt work out in BoS.

If I were you, I`d relearn the fw190 completely from the ground up, according to game parameters. All great fw190 virtual pilots I ever knew dumped all the historic fw190 theory and just played the game as what it was. Other than that, I`d recommend training your aim till it`s in vicinity of 15% hit rounds. You take 3 of your friends like that and train till you know them inside out.

[voncrapenhauser]

If the vision would be better and the highspeed stall would be little reduced, so you could turn into your opponent just a bit harder, it would maybe possible to dictate the fight.

 

+1

Why I do not use the 190.

I would like to, but it is not the plane it should be.

 

A small tweak please.

Edited February 10, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

[voncrapenhauser]

If I were you, I`d relearn the fw190 completely from the ground up, according to game parameters. All great fw190 virtual pilots I ever knew dumped all the historic fw190 theory and just played the game as what it was. Other than that, I`d recommend training your aim till it`s in vicinity of 15% hit rounds. You take 3 of your friends like that and train till you know them inside out.

I think I agree with you on this point if we look at BOS as a game.

As a Sim I feel the planes should be accurate in performance at least.

I personally am not looking for 100% accuracy, just a sim/game that makes sense.

BTW I love this game and would love to love it more.

[SYN_Mike77]

People who argue about historical accuracy for the FW190 in a game set over Stalingrad need to look up the word historical.

 

The worst mistake (and I say that as someone waiting for my unlock button to work) the devs made with this game was including the FW190. Think of the endless grief that choice has given them! Oh and if it is not competitive in game then neither is the Yak.

[Bearcat]

Just stopped here to say sorry, if anyone asked me anything in this post, but I've missed it and not answered.

Right now there is some kind of unlockocalypse for several players and I've no time for reading this thread.

 

 

There's magic in them words...

 

Look guys if you want this thread to stay open you need to all chillax and actually engage in a discussion as opposed to the back and forth stuff... Otherwise there is no point in keeping this thread open.

[unreasonable]

People who argue about historical accuracy for the FW190 in a game set over Stalingrad need to look up the word historical.

 

The worst mistake (and I say that as someone waiting for my unlock button to work) the devs made with this game was including the FW190. Think of the endless grief that choice has given them! Oh and if it is not competitive in game then neither is the Yak.

 

The Fw190 was in action in the USSR at the time, not so very far away, flying against the same Soviet planeset as we have in BoS. Even if it were not, any serious WW2 sim that wants to extend it's coverage to the wider war is going to have to deal with it sooner or later.  Better to lance the boil.

 

As someone who has no particular well informed opinion on the Fw's flight characteristics, I find this discussion interesting. On the one hand you have the (disputed) individual plane characteristics; on the other you have the questions of tactics, numbers, pilot skill and communications, all of which were just as important in determining RW outcomes, I would think.

 

Seeing if and how BoS or any flight sim can reconcile these factors is fascinating in itself.

[wtornado]

We would not even be having conversations about(it was not there) FW-190A models

if we had the historically available YAK-9 at Stalingrad all the 190's at low

altitude would of been shot down.

 

And the high altitude performance of the 190 was not all that shiney either.

 

The best days of glory that the FW-190A lived was with JG 26 when it came out

against the poor but beautiful Spitfire MK V over the English channel.

 

That was its greatest moment in its history.

 

After that all the other nations caught up and in some cased surpassed

it performance wise.

 

Old obsolete YAK-1's and ole LaGG's for crying out loud against FW-190A's and Bf-109G'.

 

Why not a I-16 while you're at it.

 

The IL-2 is the best plane in the game and no one even said it and that surprises me.

 

Sigh

[SR-F_Winger]

 

As my name was mentioned several times above, I want to say a few words:

 

Firstly, I'm not claiming to be some sort of special pilot. My statement, which I proofed at least two times, is, that the 190 is NOT competitve. Even if flown correctly (no hard turns, extend after you attack run, etc.). People say or answer this, but apparently they do not fly or at least fight in the 190.

 

 

Secondly, imo it's not possible to dictate a 1vs1 fight in a 190, because you can only run away and hope your opponent is not following you. On a crowded server it might work, because somebody shoots your pursuer or he's getting distracted. But that is not dictating....

 

If your pursuer continously following you, you can try to extend as far as possible (you still should be able to see him behind you, therefore you cannot run forever...) but as soon as you try to make a wide turn to turn into him you are loosing too much energy and in the outcome your "advantage" from the separation is completely lost.

 

This could be solved for example with the following approach. If the vision would be better and the highspeed stall would be little reduced, so you could turn into your opponent just a bit harder, it would maybe possible to dictate the fight. Also the ability to fly a proper scissors maneuvre would profit then. And this could be done without tweaking highspeed, acceleration or climbing of the 190.

 

 

Thirdly, teamwork is of course always best strategy, we do not need to discuss about.

 

You brought it to the point again. Use it in a team or die in it.

+1

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

If I were you, I`d relearn the fw190 completely from the ground up, according to game parameters. All great fw190 virtual pilots I ever knew dumped all the historic fw190 theory and just played the game as what it was. Other than that, I`d recommend training your aim till it`s in vicinity of 15% hit rounds. You take 3 of your friends like that and train till you know them inside out.

Frankly I do that actualy. Mind you that the 190 historically was a plane with limited agressive potential already and with the ingame FM it's - more or less - the "flying brick" most referr to. Still, keeping in mind BoS has been promoted to be utilizing the "most relaistic and state of the art" FMs I think we may have the right to fly it wiht it's historical advantages and limitation, not speculative "I think it's right this way, so I have to adopt to it".

 

And pls not the numerical superiority argument again...I can dominate any oppoment with my Lagg-3 is I have numerical superiority. My point was not competition ingame though, which of course would also involve many other factors like pilot skill ect.

 

To make my initial point clear, it's less an issue of the 190 FM (of course it has issues, we all know that) to me but the Yak's. That doesnt only show up in comparison to the 190 but also the G-2, which still has worse high alt performance...

Edited February 10, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Solmyr]

here's the thing that started everything "it's almost impossible to shoot down a 190 on rather equal terms". And it is.

 

 

In addition, I would say I guessed it was obvious enough that this word had to be understood as from me and ABOUT me. Because my entire post was talking about MY feeling on this subject. So I really don't see why some people find it problematic.

 

Probably I should have written it this way : "it's almost impossible for me to shoot down a 190 on rather equal terms".

Edited February 10, 2015 by Solmyr

[JtD]

... Why you think that any of this "will to disengege at any given time" applies to such sorties is beyond me...

Because that's what pilots in real life did - if they had an immediate threat, they disengaged. Which in fact is one thing that on a strategic scale changed on the Western Front in 1943, when the P-47 arrived. Luftwaffe pilots, used to be able to disengage at will (forgive my little exaggeration) from Spitfires and P-38's by entering a steep dive, now were pursued by an aircraft that could dive as well as their aircraft could. On average, they also didn't commit suicide while trying to fulfil their mission of shooting down bombers, even though plenty were around.

 

Probably I should have written it this way : "it's almost impossible for me to shoot down a 190 on rather equal terms".

Well, yeah, maybe I should have made that addition, too.