Sokol1 Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I need to know temperature at altitude, which I don't. He 111 thermometer show ~ -40º at 6000 meters in Lapino map.
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Claims are not correct always, even if they always seem to be correct. Different sources may contradict other sources, some data may be absent (incomplete) or to be from untrusted sources only. Exact plane/engine modifications or conditions in which player performed testing in game may differ from conditions in tests, performed in sources, etc.Agreed 100% Moreover, Western, German and Soviet tests of the same planes contain different performance results. If engineer take German version, every player who sticks to Western's data will say that it is not correct. If engineer take Western version, every player who sticks to German's data will say that is not correct. Agreed 100% AFAIK, Soviet's data is not used to tune German planes to avoid accusations of using wrong data, although from my opinion for Soviet's pilots it was matter of survival to know accurate characteristics of enemy's planes, thus theirs result as much credible as results of other sides.Honestly testing the enemies aircraft for the purpose of pilots survival was NOT limited to the Soviets. The whole purpose of testing the enemies aircraft was to provide the [insert nation] pilots with the strength and most notable the weakness of the enemies aircraft relative to their aircraft. Personally I tend to give the test results from testing enemies aircraft more credibility than the home nation test results.. Except in the cases where an obvious mistake was made due to them not understanding the enemies aircraft. The problem with these test results is they tend to be from 'war wiry' aircraft and not 'factory fresh' aircraft, so, I think it is best to use these test results as a min performance value sanity check. It is not secret, take your money and visit Military Archive, you will have the same data as devs. Obtained data is property of 1CGS or its partners. If there was no concurrency on market, or there was less black PR and nasty tricks to ruin BoS, then probably 1CGS would be more keen to post it open.What ever the reason.. It is too bad 1C/777 does not post the performance data.. For the very reason that JtD pointed out, i.e. Now I know you've got a pilot handbook, too, so what would be the point of me starting a campaign to make you "fix" the ground handling, based on a pilot handbook, anecdotal evidence and common sense, if I don't know what sources your team bases the current handling on?Granted this is more of a fling quality thing than a flight performance example.. But the point here is if we (the BoS users) don't know what performance values 1C/777 is basing the FM on, than it makes it practically imposable to test to see if 1C/777 has met their goal, let alone debate if the performance values 1C/777 has chosen are valid. With that said, I see two ways 1C/777 can resolve this issue.. 1) Provide a list of all the original documents they obtained from the Military Archives so the users can take our money and visit said Military Archive and buy the data. 2) Provide the performance values 1C/777 picked, note not the original documents! Just the performance values in a new 1C/777 document. Much like ACES HIGH II has done, i.e. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/climbcharts/climbcharts.pdf http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/speedcharts/speedcharts.pdf Doing it this way 1C/777 can retain the original documents they paid for, with all the 'other' information and still provide the BoS users with the performance values they can expect to obtain in game. Of the two options, I would prefer the 2nd, because with option 1, we still wouldnt know which of the real world data 1C/777 considered valid and invalid.
303_Kwiatek Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) I don't think I gave my procedure clear enough, but I'm getting 441km/h IAS, 590km/h TAS, so pretty much the same. Which is, I totally agree, strange for an aircraft supposed to do ~550km/h at that altitude. Bingo know you find the fact that German planes dont have their RL adventage over Russian planes at higher alts. Well gratulations. IRL according to ISA charts all three German fighters ( 109 F-4, G-2 and A-3) were faster then Yak-1 at alts from 6 km at about 100 kph TAS. Not true in BOS actually. Such balance now is not so important casue still German planes have some adventage in speed. But when new peroids planes will come into game e.x. LA5 F/FN or Yak-9 etc. when German planes will have still the same performance things would be not good. Edited February 8, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek
303_Kwiatek Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Moreover no metter what corrections for IAS/TAS and for dentisy alt you choose ( the same for all planes) you will get or Russian planes are too fast at high alts or German planes are too slow at high alts - relative performance will be not changed. So what i said for 2 version of game one for Russian market and second rest of the world market really don't look such bad. It could be chooice in Il2 setup: 1. Russian version of WW2 aviation history. 2. Rest of the world version of WW2 aviation history Edited February 8, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek
FlatSpinMan Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I consider it as a personal attack. I am older than you, Bear, so pls don't talk to me like to a nasty child. You seem to be going out of your way to find offence where none was meant. If BC's comment upset you, PM him or flag the post just as you should for any other poster.
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) You seem to be going out of your way to find offence where none was meant. If BC's comment upset you, PM him or flag the post just as you should for any other poster. You were here before Bear woke up, so you saw my report. Why didn't you react the way Bear did later? And if I told you "I know this may be a difficult concept for you to wrap your head around" wouldn't you be "offended"? Sry but I am. Edited February 8, 2015 by ST_ami7b5
Dakpilot Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Moreover no metter what corrections for IAS/TAS and for dentisy alt you choose ( the same for all planes) you will get or Russian planes are too fast at high alts or German planes are too slow at high alts - relative performance will be not changed. So what i said for 2 version of game one for Russian market and second rest of the world market really don't look such bad. It could be chooice in Il2 setup: 1. Russian version of WW2 aviation history. 2. Rest of the world version of WW2 aviation history So instead of insulting Devs by saying they are making a biased game deliberately why don't you use all your info including where you got it rom to prove what you are saying is true put it in a reasonable and readable format citing your references and PM it to the relevant people AS ASKED many times rather than behaving like an objectionable rude person...? Cheers Dakpilot 3
FlatSpinMan Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I have no idea when Bearcat sleeps and wakes. I don't even know what timezone he lives in, nor do I particularly care. I also don't know when or even if he saw the report. We have other things to think about.
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 I have no idea when Bearcat sleeps and wakes. I don't even know what timezone he lives in, nor do I particularly care. I also don't know when or even if he saw the report. We have other things to think about. OK then...
Bearcat Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Was this tone really necessary? I consider it as a personal attack. I am older than you, Bear, so pls don't talk to me like to a nasty child. Be so kind. In light of.... Reported it, mods took no action. I am sure if I would write something like that I would be banned immediatelly. Well, "Animal Farm" - some 'animals' are just more even... .. yes it was absolutely necessary... Why do you feel the need to constantly point out things like this? We do sleep.. we do have jobs and we cannot catch everything that happens here immediately. As for you being older than me.. well... I am going to be 60 this year so.. if you are older than me you should not be acting like you do sometimes around here. Personal attack? Not at all, just a response. 1
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 In light of.... .. yes it was absolutely necessary... Why do you feel the need to constantly point out things like this? We do sleep.. we do have jobs and we cannot catch everything that happens here immediately. As for you being older than me.. well... I am going to be 60 this year so.. if you are older than me you should not be acting like you do sometimes around here. Personal attack? Not at all, just a response. LOL, I will remember this. And I AM older than you. And all bass players I have played with so far were nice guys.
Zettman Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) LOL, I will remember this. And I AM older than you. And all bass players I have played with so far were nice guys. For someone who is "older". You are emphasizing this fact like a child. No offence, just an observation how your behavior seems to me right now. EDIT: And yeah I know, you are probably older than me too and you are also one year longer active on this forum. Zettman Edited February 8, 2015 by Zettman
J2_Trupobaw Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Just finished the last two pages of the thread... Noticed I forgot what the hell original post was about... Read thread tittle... Oh man, I feel it now .
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) For someone who is "older". You are emphasizing this fact like a child. No offence, just an observation how your behavior seems to me right now. Zettman Sry I just reacted to Bear, who seemed not to believe. To react "like a child" is a good way for old people to stay young (in heart). Out of this thread and sorry for OT, which was provoked by Feathers post. BTW., I love children. They say what they mean. Until they get 'spoiled'. Edited February 8, 2015 by ST_ami7b5
LizLemon Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Now, that is typisch knie jede reaction. All reflexes to defensiv and noch time to think. It is weil known that the great majority of the german planes lost on the eastern front were lost because of ground fire. So the number could be possible as the losses to the vvs air force only. Which is exactly what that guys original post said. It has been reliably estimated that the VVS destroyed just 600 LW aircraft in 1942 for the loss of 9000 of their own. So, if they did indeed possess a number of aircraft types that were as good or better than their German counterparts (in certain circumstances) then I fear we must conclude that VVS incompetence was on a level almost unparalleled in the annals of air warfare. Amazing how much sturm und drang can be made over a simple misreading.
303_Kwiatek Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) So instead of insulting Devs by saying they are making a biased game deliberately why don't you use all your info including where you got it rom to prove what you are saying is true put it in a reasonable and readable format citing your references and PM it to the relevant people AS ASKED many times rather than behaving like an objectionable rude person...? Cheers Dakpilot How you know that i haven't done it yet ? You know these is no question of data, sources etc. it is rather question of Developers attittude and i think it is barrier really hard to overcome ( i know these from other sims too - e.x. old Il2 was similar situations). Maby if BOS will move to another theatres things will change but actually i really dont think so. I just really dont understand some blinded people here which will be defend BOS for all cost. Well even if BOS is really good sim with good flight physics engine it doesnt change a fact that some things were balanced for Russian market. I dunno if it is just question of soviets propaganda which still could be strong there or economic decisions. But for some knwoledge people it really broke teste of these game. Edited February 8, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek
Dakpilot Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 How you know that i haven't done it yet ? You know these is no question of data, sources etc. it is rather question of Developers attittude and i think it is barrier really hard to overcome. Maby if BOS will move to another theatres things will change but actually i really dont think so. I just really dont understand some blinded people here which will be defend BOS for all cost. Well even if BOS is really good sim with good flight physics engine it doesnt change a fact that some things were balanced for Russian market. I dunno if it is just question of soviets propaganda which still could be strong there or economic decisions. But for some knwoledge people it really broke teste of these game. LoL, how to make friends and influence people.... Cheers Dakpilot
Bearcat Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 LOL, I will remember this. And I AM older than you. And all bass players I have played with so far were nice guys. Alright then you old geezer!! Suck it up and move along.... ..... 1
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 So instead of insulting Devs by saying they are making a biased game deliberately why don't you use all your info including where you got it rom to prove what you are saying is true put it in a reasonable and readable format citing your references and PM it to the relevant people AS ASKED many times rather than behaving like an objectionable rude person...?+1
303_Kwiatek Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 LoL, how to make friends and influence people.... Cheers Dakpilot Yep maby you right here but im not beat around the bush and also dont look here for a friends
JtD Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 i don't see much of a procedure, going to 6100m and flying as fast as the aircraft is able to (in autopilot), there is nothing more then that. Lagg and La also overspeed. The La only 20kph, i think that's okay. The Lagg overspeeds 25-35kph (don't know how fast it should be at this altitude, only it's topspeed), this is also kinda within the scope. But given the fact, that the Yak1 is the best fighter of the russians anyway, a perfomance boost of about 50kph+ is not acceptable. But no bias here. Sure. Here we are completing the circle - I'd like to see/know the sources 1CGS is using, so I can compare target performance and achieved performance before making a judgement. Right now, this looks like a massive mistake, but then there might be something I missed.
JtD Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 He 111 thermometer show ~ -40º at 6000 meters in Lapino map.Thanks - but I don't trust in game instruments. I doesn't seem wrong, in fact quite right, I just don't trust them. If my measurements had been 100% precise, the temperature would be -32°C, which feels pretty warm with -15° on the ground.
voncrapenhauser Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Although, with all the drama surrounding the 190, I wonder how much could be calmed if they actually just phoned up the Flying Heritage Collection and asked them about their Fw-190. +1 Oh yeah now were talking.
Dakpilot Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Yep maby you right here but im not beat around the bush and also dont look here for a friends It costs nothing to be nice Cheers Dakpilot 1
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 doing the same test with the Yak So, two people did the same test.. and they got different results? How can that be? Gee if there was only a way to record the test in a track file or video to document the test! All sarcasm aside, IMHO no one has presented anything that would be remotely considered proof, scientificly speaking.. Which is understandable due to the fact that 1C/777 does not provide a means of logging data during a test flight.. In light of this, our only alternative is to record the test flight via a track file and or video, and make it available for review along with the users perceived test results.. Doing this would allow others to review the test methods, plane settings, etc used during the test to ensure the test was done correctly.. Anything less than that should be taken with a grain of salt as to it's accuracy.. We have a saying here at White Sands Missile Range, if there is no video of the event, than it didn't happen! Which is why we have a fleet of KTMs (gimbals on trailers) with different types of cameras (visible and infrared) and zooms recording everything we do.. Every time a rocket takes off, or a UAV launches a missile, or a T72 gets blown up, or a drone QF4 gets blown out of the sky we have multiple cameras recording the event. Long story short, seeing is believing! 1
II./JG77_Manu* Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) So, two people did the same test.. and they got different results? How can that be? Gee if there was only a way to record the test in a track file or video to document the test! Doesn't matter at all how many different results occur, i made this plane fly 600kph (after 5 minutes flying straight with autopilot), and this should be definitely impossible. You don't need a log data or stuff like that to come to this conclusion. Beside not closing your radiators (that's probably what he didn't do) you really can't do anything wrong in a velocity test in this game, with the help of the autopilot. Even a monkey could do this test correct Edited February 8, 2015 by Celestiale
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) You may have confused what I said? I didn't say you can not do the type of testing you and others have been doing! All I meant to say is if you want your tests results to be taken seriously, scientifically speaking, than you should consider video taping your test.. Because as you noted, something as simple as having a different radiator setting can affect the test. Edited February 8, 2015 by ACEOFACES
JtD Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 All sarcasm aside, IMHO no one has presented anything that would be remotely considered proof, scientificly speaking..Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding, I'm discussing in a gaming forum, not trying to provide proof. I know, "got track?®", if I wanting something else. And addressing the sarcastic part, two guys (Celestiale & myself) did the same test and ended up with the same result within the uncertainty of measurement - not different results. Looking for a 50km/h error, I didn't even try to match Celestiales figure down to the last digit.
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding, I'm discussing in a gaming forum, not trying to provide proof.That is too bad, because you are one of the few that I think could do a test that the devs would take seriously And addressing the sarcastic part, two guys (Celestiale & myself) did the same test and ended up with the same result within the uncertainty of measurement - not different results. Looking for a 50km/h error, I didn't even try to match Celestiales figure down to the last digit.Not sure what your value was, but I thought you said 550? and He claims 600? So a 55/60kph error falls in the 10% category, not the generally accepted 5% error of PASS FAIL
II./JG77_Manu* Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 That is too bad, because you are one of the few that I think could do a test that the devs would take seriously Not sure what your value was, but I thought you said 550? and He claims 600? So a 55/60kph error falls in the 10% category, not the generally accepted 5% error of PASS FAIL he got 590. 550 (more like 535-540) would be the speed it should have at this altitude. Everyone who doubts this test can do it within 3 minutes, there is really no need for a record (especially when you don't have the software, and never had done anything like this, like me)
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) he got 590. 550 (more like 535-540) would be the speed it should have at this altitude. Everyone who doubts this test can do it within 3 minutes, there is really no need for a record (especially when you don't have the software, and never had done anything like this, like me) So, bear with me, in that I don't have the real world data in front of me for the planes your testing.. But based on what you just said, is it safe to assume that the real world data states the speed should be 535-540? Assuming that is the case, and JtD got 590.. 590 - 540 = 50 590 - 535 = 55 Find the average of these two gives us 52.5 So, the ingame plane is only 52.5 faster than it should be? On that note, I assume the real world data your quoting, ie 535-540 are standard day values.. Therefore have you converted the ingame values to standard day values? Because planes tend to perform better on colder days, so, after you convert the ingame values to standard day the difference should be even smaller, and fall within the generally accepted +/-5% error Edited February 8, 2015 by ACEOFACES
II./JG77_Manu* Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 So, bear with me, in that I don't have the real world data in front of me for the planes your testing.. But based on what you just said, is it safe to assume that the real world data states the speed should be 535-540? Assuming that is the case, and JtD got 590 real word data says 571kph at 3650m. http://wio.ru/tacftr/yak.htm given the fact, that the PF is an engine specialized on low altitude, and knowing the performance chart of the Yak1-P (dont have the chart here right now), the 540 value is an estimation. Could even be below that value. But definitely not over 550, you don't have to be an engineer to come to this conclusion.
Livai Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Russian planes FM taleks, I am not a expert but for me the Russian planes feel the same way how they fly. If I turn right with 400 km/h the plane break very fast to a right stall or do a left roll stall from alone. The same problem if I turn left. I have this problem only with Russian planes. Any idea what I do wrong?
GOAT-ACEOFACES Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 real word data says 571kph at 3650m. http://wio.ru/tacftr/yak.htmSo, real world data says 571, and JtD got 590.. That is very close to the generally accepted +/-5% error, and if the ingame atmosphere is not standard day, I assume that it is colder than standard day based on all the white stuff on the ground, than once you convert the ingame value of 590 to standard day should be even closer to the real world data value. given the fact, that the PF is an engine specialized on low altitude, and knowing the performance chart of the Yak1-P (dont have the chart here right now), the 540 value is an estimation. Could even be below that value. But definitely not over 550Ok, now I am confused.. why the estimates of 540? , you don't have to be an engineer to come to this conclusion.No but it sure helps
71st_AH_Mastiff Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) taleks, I am not a expert but for me the Russian planes feel the same way how they fly. If I turn right with 400 km/h the plane break very fast to a right stall or do a left roll stall from alone. The same problem if I turn left. I have this problem only with Russian planes. Any idea what I do wrong? yes your stick needs to be tuned ...if your pulling to hard its because you can not feel it in the seat of your cockpit...you need to watch for indications speed, GeForces, how your plane is reacting, the Russian planes do not except for the LA5 have forward slats. so your pulling to hard on the stick and causing a stall known as a snap roll stall. you just need more practice, and also check your stick. Edited February 8, 2015 by 71st_Mastiff
303_Kwiatek Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Regarding not only level speed but maximum dive speed. Even Yak-3 in 1944/1945 got wing problems in dives. Comander 303 IAD G. Zacharow wrote that at speed little above 700 IAS kph wings in Yak-3 broken or wing sking was broken. It is confirmed in book wrote by Normanden-Niemen French pilot who wrote about several pilots accident in dives above 700 IAS in Yak-3. No wonder that in Russian manuals there were serious restriction about maximum dives speeds. Interesting is that Yak series got the highest allowed dive speeds in manuals - 650 IAS comparing to Lagg-3 - 600 IAs and LA5 - 625 IAS. Edited February 8, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek
II./JG77_Manu* Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) So, real world data says 571, and JtD got 590.. That is very close to the generally accepted +/-5% error, and if the ingame atmosphere is not standard day, I assume that it is colder than standard day based on all the white stuff on the ground, than once you convert the ingame value of 590 to standard day should be even closer to the real world data value. Ok, now I am confused.. why the estimates of 540? No but it sure helps please just read the whole topic, before drawing false conclusions all the time, or are you doing it on purpose? we were talking about 6100m altitude. by the way i am one Edited February 8, 2015 by Celestiale
Solmyr Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 so your pulling to hard on the stick and causing a stall known as a snap roll stall And this specific behaviour can be used as a fight tactic, because when you handle it, it can help you to get a fire window to shoot the ennemy down.
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