Most badass WW2 pilot?

[Crump]

 

Look up some Western Front pilots like Werner Schroer

 

 

There were some outstanding pilots in the Luftwaffe just as every other air force. 

 

Otto Kittel - 583 sorties for 267 kills = 2.18 sortie to kill ratio

 

 

Werner Schroer was credited with 114 victories flying 197 missions.

 

A 1.72 ratio!

 

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schroer.html

Crump: I like your approach to the question.

 

Those are interesting numbers.

 

 . 

[DD_bongodriver]

Yes looking at it from a kill/sortie ratio is a more balanced approach even if it doesn't avoid completely looking at it from a kills perspective, well done Crumpp, just clarify my stand on this and explain some of my posts which I think have been misconstrued as Political/envy/trolling, I just find it distasteful and unimaginative to beam with pride at the achievements based purely on kills.....it's like supporting Manchester United.....talk about 'pay to win'

[DD_Arthur]

Adrian Warburton. Malta's reconnaissance pilot extraordinaire.

Remembered by his old school pals as frequently bragging about the improbable locations in which he managed to masturbate.

Which begs the question, did he ever manage to crank one out in those long flights to Taranto?

 

Lol!   One of WW2's more "unexplored" areas and surely worth a thread on it's own! 

[FlatSpinMan]

Actually the Malta pilots do deserve a hand.

Hur-hur.

 

And yes, ManU. Unless you're from there, why would you support them? It smacks of a lack of moral fibre. You can't just go as round backing the winning teams. If I find myself watching a sports game in which I have no stake, I'd never dream of backing the rich, famous team. Where's the fun in that?

[LLv44_Mprhead]

"...it's like supporting Manchester United..." seems that there is something we can agree on

[Furio]

As Saint Exupery wrote in “Pilote de guerre”, sometimes war asks you to risk your life. Sometimes it simply asks you to die. For this reason I selected John Waldron. He just died, but probably ensured US Navy victory in the decisive Midway Battle. Luftwaffe aces, as good as they were as snipers, lost all their decisive battles. They failed to achieve air superiority over England in 1940. They failed to stop bomber offensive over Germany. They lost air superiority over North Africa, Marseille notwithstanding, and, finally, they lost air superiority over Eastern Front in 1944, Hartmann notwithstanding.

 

If combat effectiveness is our basic criterion, than we should name Badass Number One Paul Tibbets. He won the war with a single bomb. And lived the rest of his life with that weight upon his shoulders.

[Crump]

 

I just find it distasteful and unimaginative to beam with pride at the achievements based purely on kills.....it's like supporting Manchester United.....talk about 'pay to win'

 

I don't think a claim can be made that the Luftwaffe won anything.

 

No, Just because our ancestors crossed a mountain range, walked towards, away, left or right of the sun, or chose to stay by a lakeshore does not make any particular group less human no matter where they decided to call home.

[DD_bongodriver]

I don't think a claim can be made that the Luftwaffe won anything.

 

No, Just because our ancestors crossed a mountain range, walked towards, away, left or right of the sun, or chose to stay by a lakeshore does not make any particular group less human no matter where they decided to call home.

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say..........I don't think you quite got my point either.

[SCG_Neun]

I know that a combat simulation like IL-2,  can never totally help us as cyber pilots to experience real combat and the tactics and dangers of WWII, but I think those of us that have flown in IOW, DID and the like, can appreciate what it means to have over a thousand combat missions and to survive, let alone 1500, with air kills over 300.  The kills just show the proximity to hostile combat....pushing a plane to it's limit, flying over flak, foul weather, fuel constraints, and as for the Luftwaffe....being outnumbered especially towards the end of the war.  That's not to say they didn't get shot down, crash land, suffer terrible wounds.....because some of the greatest of the Luftwaffe experienced all of this and more.  So, yes....kills matter, but kills in relation to the number of sorties.....even more I agree wholeheartedly.    In fact, I had no idea many of the other Allied Aces actually flew so limited a number of sorties. 

 

No the Luftwaffe were not "superhuman....and I get the previous assertions....But sometimes men thrust into overwhelming odds rise up to unbelievable levels of fortitude, with survival skills and situational awareness at levels gleaned from years of combat and suffering. This is why someone like Erich Hartmann, with over 1400 combat missions, 352 victories(let's even say it was over 300, for argument sake) and never losing a wingman in all that time....is the number one pick for me.   I respect the other choices made here.....and do not in anyway assert that the other pilots personally selected are not deserving as well.

[Gort]

As Saint Exupery wrote in “Pilote de guerre”, sometimes war asks you to risk your life. Sometimes it simply asks you to die. For this reason I selected John Waldron. He just died, but probably ensured US Navy victory in the decisive Midway Battle. Luftwaffe aces, as good as they were as snipers, lost all their decisive battles. They failed to achieve air superiority over England in 1940. They failed to stop bomber offensive over Germany. They lost air superiority over North Africa, Marseille notwithstanding, and, finally, they lost air superiority over Eastern Front in 1944, Hartmann notwithstanding.

 

If combat effectiveness is our basic criterion, than we should name Badass Number One Paul Tibbets. He won the war with a single bomb. And lived the rest of his life with that weight upon his shoulders.

That is an interesting assessment.

[Stig]

There were some outstanding pilots in the Luftwaffe just as every other air force. 

 

Otto Kittel - 583 sorties for 267 kills = 2.18 sortie to kill ratio

 

 

A 1.72 ratio!

 

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schroer.html

 

 . 

 

It's claims to sortie ratio, and that's whether it's the Luftwaffe or any other airforce. The same goes for the 'kills/ loss ratio' of X plane= 'claims/ loss ratio'. We don't know the 'kills' because we can't compare them to the actual losses incurred by the opposition. These are not comparable statistics like in baseball, basketball, cricket etc, because we don't have all the verifiable data. What's more, we never will have it.

[FlatSpinMan]

Anyway, a fine autumn day here in this part of the world,...

And my vote would be for Erich Hartmann due to his stunning record, his mental fotitude, and his uncanny resemblance to my dad at a young age (only with different coloured hair). Seriously, when I first read "The Blonde Knight of Germany" it blew me away.

 

But I digress...

[Stig]

But I digress...

 

So do we all

[Stray]

Well, while jumping 150 German bombers and fighters with only 6 Hurricanes is quite badass to me ( Polish 303rd in BoB ), my no1 badass pilot of all times is Robin Olds.

 

A short quote:

 

Undeterred by staring his own bloody, gruesome death straight in the face, Olds ordered his four-plane element to advance on the German formation, despite the notable problem that he was outnumbered roughly 15-to-1 and .  When the Three and Four man in his formation reported in with "engine trouble" and couldn't get up enough speed to engage the enemy, Robin Olds naturally looked over at his wingman and said, "Ok, you take the 25 on the left, I'll take the 25 on the right."  He throttled up to combat speed, dropped fuel tanks, and prepared to charge head-first into an aerial engagement that would make the Battle of Endor look like a couple of Hello Kitty kites harmlessly bumping into each other on a sunny day in the park. 

 

Unfortunately, when he dropped his fuel tanks, Robin Olds got a little too excited about the killing and forgot to switch over to internal fuel.   Both engines stalled and died.

 

He pulled the trigger anyways.

 

The P-38's quad-linked .50 cals and 20mm cannon barked fire like the Queen of Hell, shredding the fuselage of the lead Me-109 and sending it hurtling into a death spiral. 

 

Olds credits himself as being the only man to ever record a confirmed kill while in glide mode.

 

- See more at: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=784151231971#sthash.4WyjUpQx.dpuf

 

The website lists quite a few badass pilots and for me is the best source for badassery in the history of mankind.

Edited September 28, 2013 by JG26_Stray

[Crump]

 

It's claims to sortie ratio, and that's whether it's the Luftwaffe or any other airforce. ..........................................................................................we don't have all the verifiable data. What's more, we never will have it.

 

 

It certainly is not free from margin of error or perfect.

 

However it is perfectly reasonable methodology and is used by most air force historical departments. 

 

We have "most" of the data.  Air forces all kept records of their operations giving us a figure within significant digits that is reasonably accurate.  the "Kills" have all been thru a verification system that while not perfect, attempts to make as reasonable a verification as was possible.  

 

To discount it is to spiral off into the realm of pure speculation and conjecture which is certainly not more accurate or in possession of a smaller margin of error. 

Edited September 28, 2013 by Crump

[Stig]

It certainly is not free from margin of error or perfect.

 

However it is perfectly reasonable methodology and is used by most air force historical departments. 

 

We have "most" of the data.  Air forces all kept records of their operations giving us a figure within significant digits that is reasonably accurate.  the "Kills" have all been thru a verification system that while not perfect, attempts to make as reasonable a verification as was possible.  

 

To discount it is to spiral off into the realm of pure speculation and conjecture which is certainly not more accurate or in possession of a smaller margin of error. 

 

I'm not discounting anything, merely admonishing that the figures being slung around in this thread regarding 'kills' (not just your figures) are not cold, hard facts but open to a great deal of uncertainty.That uncertainty stems in large part from the difficulty in comparing claims with actual losses of the other side. 

 

The airfoce historical departments may be neglectful of pointing this out.That contributes to a lot of myths, there are for example still WWII flightsimfans that believe that the B-17 shot down most enemy aircraft.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Stig1207

[Crump]

 

The airfoce historical departments may be neglectful of pointing this out.That contributes to a lot of myths, there are for example still WWII flightsimfans that believe that the B-17 shot down most enemy aircraft.

 

 

It was the math combined with intelligence figures on German losses that showed the USAAF during the war the B17 gunner claims where outliers.

 

The fighter pilot claims are not outliers as confirmed by the same crosschecking.

[Stig]

It was the math combined with intelligence figures on German losses that showed the USAAF during the war the B17 gunner claims where outliers.

 

The fighter pilot claims are not outliers as confirmed by the same crosschecking.

 

If you are saying that the US fighter pilots were more accurate in their claims than B-17 (also other US bomber) gunners, that is correct.

 

It doesn't change the fact that in many cases we don't really know what happened, who shot down how many enemies, because we only have the claims of one side, but not records of the other sides actual losses.  

[AX2]

 

Günther Josten

 

He claimed his 90th victory on 2 May 1944 and was promoted  to Leutnant.

On 18 September 1944 he took command of 3./JG 51  as Staffelkapitan. 

On 20 September he reached the century mark. 

By October 26 his score had reached 139 claims. 

Josten flew 420 combat missions, was never shot down, and was officially credited with shooting down 178 enemy aircraft.

His last seven aerial victories were claimed on 25 April 1945.

 

After World War II, Günther Josten rejoined the military service in the Bundeswehr and succeeded Erich Harmann as Geschwaderkommodore of Jagdgeschwader 71.

It was under his command that Jagdgeschwader 71 reequipped the Canadair Sabrewith the U.S.-made Lockeed F-104 Starfighter.

Oberst Josten retired on 31 March 1981.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Mustang

[II./JG27_Rich]

Anyway, a fine autumn day here in this part of the world,...

And my vote would be for Erich Hartmann due to his stunning record, his mental fotitude, and his uncanny resemblance to my dad at a young age (only with different coloured hair). Seriously, when I first read "The Blonde Knight of Germany" it blew me away.

 

But I digress...

Great book. I lent it to a friend who had a mild interrest in WWII Combat Flight Sims. I love the.. "If I can't where my fire arm they can stuff their medal"..story.

Edited September 29, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[FlatSpinMan]

What did your friend think? Have you signed him up yet - we're like Amway:-)

[Brutus]

Hans Marseille and George Beurling are two that get my vote. Neither were particularly great 'team players', to say the least. However, they were both extraordinary marksmen and in that regard were quite definitely 'badass'.

[707shap_Srbin]

Some of Erich Rudorffer feats:

He shot down eight British aircraft in 32 minutes on 9 February 1943

On 24 August 1943, he shot down five Russian aircraft on the first mission

He scored seven victories in seven minutes on 11 October

but his finest achievement occurred on 6 November when in the course of 17 minutes, 13 Russian aircraft fell to his guns!

 

13 kills in one sortie is pretty impressive.

 

 

Huuuuge overclaimer.

4/5 of his claims = lie. Both Western and Eastern front claims.

9.feb.1943 - claimed 8, actual losses = 0 (zero).

 

6.nov.1943 - claimed 13 + his wingman Tangermann claimed 5, total 18, actual losses = 3 (three).

and more. more...

[II./JG27_Rich]

What did your friend think? Have you signed him up yet - we're like Amway:-)

Oh he said he couldn't put it down once he started. He loved the book. I gave him my CFS2 to try and see what he thought of that and told him that I could get him a copy of IL-2 for about five bucks online but he chickened out I think a lot of people have the fear of beeing called a nerd and actually having a blast at this stuff. The nerds are the guys over at War Thunder

Edited September 29, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[Crump]

 

If you are saying that the US fighter pilots were more accurate in their claims than B-17 (also other US bomber) gunners, that is correct.

 

It doesn't change the fact that in many cases we don't really know what happened, who shot down how many enemies, because we only have the claims of one side, but not records of the other sides actual losses.  

 

That is the beauty of the math. 

 

Within the realm of significant digits.....it is accurate enough.

 

What I said was the B17 gunner claims were an outlier.  It just means it is numerically distant and does not follow the rest of the data. 

 

For the most part, claims follow a standard distribution.

 

Yes there are outliers such as Rudorffer or the B17 gunners with high standard deviations.

[LG1.Farber]

I fail to see how Rudel is not no.1.  He is the highest scroting combat pilot EVER.  Lost a leg and rescued his comrades!

 

I think the OP has a boner for Soviet female pilots.

Edited September 29, 2013 by 5./JG27Farber

[Finkeren]

I fail to see how Rudel is not no.1. He is the highest scroting combat pilot EVER. Lost a leg and rescued his comrades!

 

I think the OP has a boner for Soviet female pilots.

Based purely on combat performance, I would propably have to place Rudel at number 1, and none of the 2 Ladies would be there, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

I chose Yegorova as number 1, not based on combat performance (surviving 270 sorties in an IL2 is quite an achievement but certainly not unsurpassed) but because she kept her chin high despite all the horrible things she went through.

 

A wouldn't say, I have a "boner" for female pilots (if it was all about that, there are definately prettier specimen than Yegorova) but I'd be lying, if I said that gender isn't an important factor in my selection. These women had to work hard to even be allowed to put their lives on the line, fighting prejudice at every turn. When they finally got to the front, they fought with incredible determination against nearly imposible odds, and lived through many, many more encounters with death than any British or American pilot would ever dream of.

 

That to me is pretty bad ass!

Edited September 29, 2013 by Finkeren

[senseispcc]

Once again all here forget that all Axis pilots had many more possible victims so that there air victories seems very more numerous.

 

Secondly the Axis pilots had no rotation system where the pilots could rest and train new pilots, seldom also with the exception of the "experten" did they receive some rest time.

 

A third little fact is that in the Axis aces, the "experten" had more importance and where better equip, protected by wingman’s, so there scores could build up without any obstacles.

 

On the Allied side during large part of the war they had difficulties to find Axis preys, plus with the exception of the Battle of Britain the confirmation of victories was very difficult if not impossible.

 

Luckily there is the gun-camera...

 

In the axis nations I include all German allies and Japan, normal!

 

1/ Alexey Maresyev the Russian Douglas Bader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Maresyev

 

2/Burbridge, Branse Arthur Mosquito ace with 21 victories.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branse_Burbridge

 

3/ Raymond Lallemant a Belgian Typhon pilot.

 

http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages/navigator/belgian_aviation_history/ww_ii/609_squadron.htm

 

 

Have a nice hunt in the skies of Stalingrad.

 

[=FI=Macca]

Stanislaw Skalski - became the first Allied fighter ace of WW2 in September 1939 flying obsolete Polish aircraft against overehelming German forces. On the first day of the fights he landed beside a German recon plane shot down by his collegue and helped the crew, making sure they won't be killed by angry civilians but taken to a hospital. He also commanded a number of Polish and British squadrons later during the war, including the Skalski's Circus which took part in combat over Africa and was very efficient. After the war he was imprisoned by the community regime and sentenced to death, released and rehabilitated came back to flying in the Polish Air force.

 

Eugeniusz Horbaczewski - also a Polish ace, on 16 Feb 1944 he landed near his wounded collegue downed during an attack on ground targets in France in his Mustang, carried him to the plans and flew it back to England. On his last fight he led his squadron against 60 Fw190. He was the squadron's only casualty on that day, taking three Fw with him.

Edited September 29, 2013 by =FI=Macca

[Stig]

That is the beauty of the math. 

 

 

Thanks for the explanation, and  I am in no way doubting the math (incl. your kill/sortie ratios, I have used the same method myself many times on this subject).

 

I should perhaps also clarify that I'm not doubting the high Luftwaffe claim figures, they are quite plausible due to the many  missions  that the pilots flew.

 

My point was that what we call 'kills' are the claims made by pilots and confirmed and credited by the relevant authourity. However, when it has been able at a later stage to compare these 'kills' with records of the opposing sides losses they don't always match up, with 'kills' often exceeding the losses. If we were able to compare all claims with actual losses, then this discussion would have been much shorter. Since we don't, then we should bear in mind that we can't know for sure what score a particular ace  achieved, same goes for  xxx fighter group or JGxx, and so on.

[II./JG27_Rich]

Biggest dumbass pilot = Gordon Gollob. He did what ever the higher ups said witch got a lot of his men killed.

Edited September 30, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[Crump]

 

My point was that what we call 'kills' are the claims made by pilots and confirmed and credited by the relevant authourity. However, when it has been able at a later stage to compare these 'kills' with records of the opposing sides losses they don't always match up, with 'kills' often exceeding the losses. If we were able to compare all claims with actual losses, then this discussion would have been much shorter. Since we don't, then we should bear in mind that we can't know for sure what score a particular ace  achieved, same goes for  xxx fighter group or JGxx, and so on.

 

 

Absolutely.  I completely agree.  My point is we can get to a very good probability but of course we can never make it a certainty on this topic.

 

That is the fun in discussing it!!

[Stig]

Absolutely.  I completely agree.  My point is we can get to a very good probability but of course we can never make it a certainty on this topic.

 

That is the fun in discussing it!!

 

Yes, and we weren't really disagreeing with one another the whole time, it seems.

[Crump]

Discussing is accurate, I enjoyed it and I hope you did too.

 

Points were made and clarified.

 

[Stig]

Discussing is accurate, I enjoyed it and I hope you did too.

 

Points were made and clarified.

 

 

Yes

[FlatSpinMan]

When BoS is out, me and my fancy new Founder's 20mm gunpods will be the new most badass!!!!!!

:-)

[AX2]

When BoS is out, me and my fancy new Founder's 20mm gunpods will be the new most badass!!!!!!

:-)

Pull the trigger  for 3 seconds, and enjoy the fireworks ! 

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Guy Gibson of 617 sqn.

Hans Rudel Stuka ace

Leonard Cheshire

(sorry posting on a phone, I wonder how many have heard of the last guy ;-) )

[01Wingchaps]

My vote, Hans Rudel (of course)  .

[=LD=Scronce]

 and prepared to charge head-first into an aerial engagement that would make the Battle of Endor look like a couple of Hello Kitty kites harmlessly bumping into each other on a sunny day in the park. 

 

 

Is uh.. Is this a star wars reference D:

 

Cause Ewoks can be like hello kittys

 

This glorious Bastard 

http://www.lewisheatonbooks.com/hansjoachimmarseille.htm

Love this pic haha