Most badass WW2 pilot?

[DB605]

I know right......shame that the Allies won the war, all these Hollywood movies being made about such inferior pilots instead of the real superheroes.

 

This is not what i was saying by any means so cut your political nonsense please. We all know reasons why germans have so much victories compared to allies etc etc. Let's get back to topic now.

[DD_bongodriver]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood, I was just enthusiastically agreeing with you about Hollywood

[Crump]

 

 know right......shame that the Allies won the war, all these Hollywood movies being made about such inferior pilots instead of the real superheroes.

 

It is a discussion about history, personalities, and most important the posters opinion of what they think was the most "bad ass" pilot of World War II. 

 

One of the things we fought for and won against the Nazi's, was the right to freedom of expression.

 

[DD_bongodriver]

You're right, good point..........oh dear what a conundrum......

[adonys]

1) Erich Hartmann - for his conduct & character during his career, and specially during russian imprisonment years

2) Hans-Ulrich Rudel - for his conduct & character during his career

3) all romanian pilots flying against american swarms of P51 during the summer of 1944 year

[Feathered_IV]

"HAMMER DOWN" 

Oh, how could you!!?

[II./JG27_Rich]

Oh, how could you!!?

I know I couldn't help it.

[FlatSpinMan]

No politics, no kill claim disputes. More 'badass pilots' please.

Actually, cracked.com must have a thread about this.

[Crump]

 

 Hans-Ulrich Rudel - for his conduct & character during his career

 

 

 

Character embodies a sense of moral right and wrong. 

 

While Rudel was loyal, he was loyal to a fault.  After the war when the criminality of the Nazi regime was exposed, he remain a steadfast Nazi.  In fact his loyalties ended the career of several former colleagues in the Bundesluftwaffe when they became guilty by association.

 

He also forged a friendship with Dr Mengle in his adopted country of Argentina after the war. 

 

I cannot admire this guy for his character.

[ImPeRaToR]

I know right......shame that the Allies won the war, all these Hollywood movies being made about such inferior pilots instead of the real superheroes.

lol somebody is a bit bitter

[DD_bongodriver]

lol somebody is a bit bitter

 

yeah......bitter, I'm definitely the bitter one here 

[FlatSpinMan]

I'm fairly sure there was more than a hint of irony there, mixed with admiration for pilots' ability.

Couldn't find WW2, but here's WW1.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18933_6-wwi-fighter-pilots-whose-balls-deserve-their-own-monument.html

[DD_bongodriver]

I'm fairly sure there was more than a hint of irony there, mixed with admiration for pilots' ability.

 

No I didn't detect any irony in DB605's post, but certainly a lot of jealousy about the allies enjoyment of making Hollywood movies.

 

 

Oh....sorry I get it now, this is all about me...

Edited September 27, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Panzerlang]

Germans...better engineers, better pilots. Look at the crankcases on a Panther.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

No I didn't detect any irony in DB605's post, but certainly a lot of jealousy about the allies enjoyment of making Hollywood movies.

 

 

Oh....sorry I get it now, this is all about me...

Are you drunk or something? Because you seem to be reading from these posts something that I most certainly cannot see... Or are you just trolling?

 

Or is this some communication issue? Misinterpretation?

Edited September 27, 2013 by mprhead

[DD_bongodriver]

Are you drunk or something? Because you seem to be reading from these posts something that I most certainly cannot see... Or are you just trolling?

 

Or is this some communication issue? Misinterpretation?

 

really?

 

Maybe I do read things differently here and there, who knows who is right.

Edited September 27, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Furio]

The thread is very interesting, but truth is that I don’t like that much the badass category… Or, to say it otherwise, I like another kind of badass…

My list is:

John Waldron. Commander of VT8 at Midway he led a hopeless charge with hopelessly obsolete torpedo planes (with ineffective torpedoes). VT8 was slaughtered and Waldron killed with most of his men, but was decisive in ensuring a surprise attack by Dauntlesses.

Lew Archer. He has to wait a lot to have his ace status recognized, because of the colour of his skin. He and all other Tuskegee Airmen never pursued kill tally, but kept strictly to their escort duties. And they were the best at it.

Antoine de Saint Exupery. He flew only photo recon plane, mostly unarmed, but he wrote “The Little Prince”.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Furio

[von_Tom]

 

Oh....sorry I get it now, this is all about me...

 

 

Congratulations on making it so.

 

 

In no particular order:

 

1.  Rudorffer - often overlooked despite success on both fronts.

 

2.  Leonard Cheshire - I mean, deciding to fly a P51 for the first time and using it to mark a night time attack, and telling bopmb aimers to bomb using him as a target.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire

 

3.  Guy Gibson

 

And what amazes me, is that you can get a "kid" of 25 who has to fly combat missions but also have responsibility for a group/Wing/Gruppe and all that comprises.  That is truly bad-ass, though accepted as normal wartime fare.

 

Hood

 

Edit:  Honourable mention to Walter Schuck.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Hood

[Finkeren]

Antoine de Saint Exupery. He flew only photo recon plane, mostly unarmed, but he wrote “The Little Prince”.

Along with "Pilote de Guerre", which I consider the most beautiful description of flying in combat ever written.

[DD_bongodriver]

Congratulations on making it so.

 

 

Oh I assure you that's not the intention, but thanks awfully old chap!

[Cybermat47]

Antoine de Saint Exupery. He flew only photo recon plane, mostly unarmed, but he wrote “The Little Prince”.

In a cruel twist of fate, the German pilot who killed him was a fan of his book.

[J2_Trupobaw]

1) A tie between Hartmann and Rudel. This includes their after-war steadfastness. Largely helped by Pierre Clostermann comparing Rudel's refusal to go with most other Germans - who after war suddenly turned out to have been Nazi opponents all along - with his and his Free French coleagues refusal to join general complacency after French-German armistice in 1940.

2) Werner Molders - not only badass pilot, but badass who opposed Nazism while fighting for Germany. 

3) Adolf Galland - not only badass pilot but badass who stood up to Goering to numerous times. Resigning his station as chief of fighter arm rather than becoming sycophant, and taking command of crack unit of picked fighter aces outside the chain of command? No one of Hollywood would consider the story believable.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Trupobaw

[von_Tom]

Oh I assure you that's not the intention, but thanks awfully old chap!

 

 

Quite all right.  I appreciate that it's a natural side product of your interaction but congratulations all the same.

 

 

I realised that I forgot a very honourable mention for Udet too.

 

Hood

[Gort]

Dude, read something about Marseille....maybe a book....this will explain why it was a badass (and much more outside the war/aviation thing) even if you dont count his skills and kills....

 

@ NotSoMadTommy - I agree about Bader....

 

A colleague of mine wrote a book about Marseille that goes into his life beyond flying. Very compelling, written by Robert Tate, a great guy who taught history at the Air War College in Montgomery. He exposed me to Marseille as a pure pilot, and an interesting person with broad interests.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Joachim-Marseille-Illustrated-Tribute-Luftwaffes/dp/0764329405/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1380294113&sr=8-3&keywords=hans+marseille

 

Will such a broad war with so many aviators fighting in different aircraft against opponents of widely varying skills that it is very difficult to ascertain who was best. I just enjoy reading about the era.

[SCG_Neun]

I'd also like to mention Franz Stigler, who should be considered as much for defying the principals of war, and choosing the humanity of compassion, in not shooting down "Ye Old Pub"....flown by Charlie Brown as he struggled to return to England in a B-17 that by all the laws of physics should not have even been flying in the first place.  Stigler a high scoring ace fighter pilot could not bring himself to finish off this aircraft and would later meet Brown and some of the crew over 40 years later.  Not only did he not shoot it down, he escorted it past flak stations which prevented them from finishing off the aircraft as well. 

 

I encourage everyone to watch the video and get a perspective on this......

 

http://www.valorstudios.com/franz-stigler-photos-and-video.htm

Edited September 27, 2013 by JagdNeun

[=LD=Scronce]

Franz Stigler

[II./JG27_Rich]

In a cruel twist of fate, the German pilot who killed him was a fan of his book.

Did you see the short film made on this subject?

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP-AhOaKohI

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WKK1RQoewM

Edited September 27, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[SCG_Neun]

"The German Aces Speak: World War II through the Eyes of Four of the Luftwaffe's Most Important Commanders" and I quote from Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF (RET):

"As a fighter pilot in two wars, I suppose I have the unique distinction in the minds of many of being one of the first combat pilots to fly fighters from the piston engine to the jet age. However, this would be u...ntrue. It was the German pilots of the Luftwaffe who broke that barrier. I have had the pleasure of knowing a few German pilots from World War II, most notably the late Adolf Galland, a man I respected and admired for many reasons.
Galland and a handful of selected young Germans took to the skies to serve their nation, not a political agenda. Most of these men were never involved in politics, and none that I knew even supported the political ideology of their nation or its leadership. That being said, I think that the time has come to place these men, as one must place all warriors, into the proper perspective. They were men serving their nation and doing their job. Nothing less.
What I did experience firsthand was the caliber of these pilots. You had to be sharp, and on your game, or you would be killed. Colin Heaton’s expert interviewing methods have brought these stories and these men back to life. The hardships thy endured as pilots I can readily comprehend as those are universal. However what is beyond my experience, thank God, was their struggle against their own leadership at the same time they were fighting a war of national survival.
Colin has become great friends with many of us over the years, and his focus upon even the smallest detail comes through. However, what is perhaps the most important factor is that his works, in particular this book, illustrate the humanity and chivalry felt by my enemies toward their opponents, something that sometimes gets lost in the postwar rhetoric.
This book is truly as testament to good men doing a tough job. Even though they were my enemies, I can still call them my brothers. I hold no ill will against the Germans I fought, just the opposite. I admired their skill, and feared their effectiveness, and after the war I enjoyed their company. I hope that the rest of the world can also allow these pilots, these men, to be accepted as national heroes in their own country. They should be proud of their dedication to Germany. I am proud to have fought against such worthy adversaries, who were good men.”

[II./JG27_Rich]

Agree 100% Neun. I've tried and tried to hammer it into my non flying friends heads that flying a 109 has nothing to do what so ever with polotics. They don't get it.

[rarapka]

1) Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin - The man who made the most for surviving VVS and probably more than anyone and anything else. Leader able to fight with his own superiors for his own subordinates under the brutal political system.

 

 

Yep, good call, my favorite. Also worth to note that his first kill was a soviet plane!  He also preferred P-39's and P-63's (my personal favorite aircraft) over La7's.

Other than pokryshkin I consider any war surviving navypilot a badass pilot given the ordeal of landing on an aircraft carrier after the rush of battle. I'm not so much into pilots but in this regard David McCampbell comes to mind.

Edited September 27, 2013 by rarapka

[Rjel]

One question I've always had regarding the aces of the Luftwaffe is this. Was the percentage of ace pilots higher in the Luftwaffe based on the total number of fighter pilots employed by Germany in WWII when compared to other air forces? Looking at the larger number of potential enemy targets to be encountered, the Luftwaffe pilot certainly had more opportunity for aerial combat than did most Allied pilots. On the other hand, larger numbers of E/A also put them in greater danger on a daily basis. Has anyone ever read any studies concerning this?

 

One last thing to ponder concerning Axis pilots attacking hoards of B-17s, Mustangs and the rest. They WERE NOT all in the same spot of sky at any given time. Over and over someone will write about attacking one thousand B-17s. Never happened. Those one thousand B-17s were in a stream over 100 miles long. Same with the fighters. Rarely was more than a single fighter group on station at any one time. They were sent out in relays so hopefully some were nearby when an attack developed. There were hundreds going along as escort but they were spread out over several hours of flight time and hundreds of miles of enemy air. Still, it would have been an amazing sight to see fly over. I can't even begin to imagine it.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Rjel

[Finkeren]

One question I've always had regarding the aces of the Luftwaffe is this. Was the percentage of ace pilots higher in the Luftwaffe based on the total number of fighter pilots employed by Germany in WWII when compared to other air forces? Looking at the larger number of potential enemy targets to be encountered, the Luftwaffe pilot certainly had more opportunity for aerial combat than did most Allied pilots. On the other hand, larger numbers of E/A also put them in greater danger on a daily basis. Has anyone ever read any studies concerning this?

The claim of a total of around 2500 German pilots having been credited with 5 kills or more is thrown around so often, that it's propably not entirely wrong.

 

The more difficult task is to determine exactly how many fighter pilots actually served in active units in the Luftwaffe during the war. The Luftwaffe at one point numbered nearly 2 million personel, but only a very small minority of these were aircraft crew, and only a small minority of these were fighter pilots. 

 

It's important to keep in mind, that the Luftwaffe was never a very large force. From 1940 they kept a relatively steady number of serviceable aircraft of between 3000 and 4000 right up till the end of 1944, when the numbers really started to plummet. Even though the proportion of single seat fighters grew over the years, as the Luftwaffe shifted over to a more defensive role, there were at no point more than 1500 serviceable single seat fighters in the entire Luftwaffe.

 

It is known, that the Luftwaffe day fighter force suffered around 12,000 irrecoverable casualties during the war. If we take a giant leap of faith, and use the casualty rates of the German army (which was a little over 30% for the entire war) as a guideline, we can argue, that around 35,000 day fighter pilots gave service for the Luftwaffe during WW2, which propably isn't too far off. This means, that  over 7% of Luftwaffe fighter pilots achieved more than 5 victories. That's a pretty staggering number, which I think can't be rivaled by any air force exept perhaps the Finns.

 

What's more amazing is, that Luftwaffe pilots claimed 70,000 victories during the war (note I said "claimed", not "shot down"), the far majority of which fell to day fighters, which means that on average every single day figter pilot shot down close to 2 enemy planes. It is very, very rare for any fighting force througout history to achieve an average kill ratio higher than 1 per front line soldier.

 

An important part of the reason for these staggering numbers (let's drop the discussion of over claiming for now) is, that the Luftwaffe nearly always fought at a severe numerical disadvantage. Abother is, that they often kept their most succesful pilots in the front line perpetually, rather than pull them from combat flying and use them to train new pilots or serve as tactical leaders on the ground, as most other air forces did. 

[sunny42]

nice

[Crump]

 

Was the percentage of ace pilots higher in the Luftwaffe based on the total number of fighter pilots employed by Germany in WWII when compared to other air forces?

 

No, in fact their sortie to kill ratio where the same as every other air force.  They just got the opportunity much more often.  IIRC, Hartmann for example flew in excess of 1425 missions for 352 kills.  That is a ratio of 4.05 sorties for each kill.

 

Mick Spick wrote a pretty good book on the subject.  It is explained in detail and once you understand the situation they were faced with, the exploits are not at all "superhuman".  Simply put, the high kill ratio's are a natural result of the situation they found themselves facing. 

 

I highly recommend:

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2137363.Luftwaffe_Fighter_Aces

[Crump]

To put things in perspective (lower the number, the better the ratio):

 

Richard Bong 146 sorties for 40 kills = 3.65 ratio

 

Robert Johnson 91 sorties for 28 kills = 3.25

[Rjel]

To put things in perspective (lower the number, the better the ratio):

 

Richard Bong 146 sorties for 40 kills = 3.65 ratio

 

Robert Johnson 91 sorties for 28 kills = 3.25

I don't have the book in front of me but I recall Robert Johnson's sortie to kill ratio as compared to, I believe, Werner Molders, being very comparable. Still I can't imagine nationality or race alone would account for superiority in any human endeavor. It does however make for great arguments.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Rjel

[Finkeren]

Crump: I like your approach to the question.

 

Those are interesting numbers.

[II./JG27_Rich]

To put things in perspective (lower the number, the better the ratio):

 

Richard Bong 146 sorties for 40 kills = 3.65 ratio

 

Robert Johnson 91 sorties for 28 kills = 3.25

Look up some Western Front pilots like Werner Schroer.....Taken from my favorite IL-2 movie The Desert Dogfighter...Wait till we get to Africa!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F3YML3BoqM&feature=youtu.be

Edited September 28, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[Feathered_IV]

Adrian Warburton. Malta's reconnaissance pilot extraordinaire.

Remembered by his old school pals as frequently bragging about the improbable locations in which he managed to masturbate.

Which begs the question, did he ever manage to crank one out in those long flights to Taranto?

[Stig]

The 'kills' discussions always end up being very contentious. However, we are never going to know precisely how many X ace actually got or how many XX airforce actually destroyed.

 

It also seems that all or most airforces lost more aircraft in non-combat operations than they did to enemy action. Which leads me regard any aircrew serving in WWII as badass. They were risking their lives just getting into their aircaft.