Most badass WW2 pilot?

[Zmaj76]

OK...small correction...When I was mentioning MArseille I was actually thinking about who is the best "killer"...best fighter pilot by all means....he was also quite a character...

 

but badass would fit more for Bader.....Req already said why......

Edited September 26, 2013 by Tvrdi

[Fifi]

Not for the kills, but for the incredible pilot career (includind the worst part of it) and the very controversial and complex person: Hermann Goring...

No one pilot had the incredible life he had, in WW1, between wars, and in WW2. He is N°1 bad ass for me, even though i completely desagree with what he did.

[Zmaj76]

what that island did to you? 

 

ok im joking

[II./JG27_Rich]

Franz Stigler - Despite defending his Country, as all of us would if push comes to shove, he was also a human being & did the right thing in a difficult time, facing the wrath of his own people, to help the enemy of his country survive after being shot up.

 

Charlie Brown  - the pilot of the B17 that franz Stigler was sent to finish off, for his dedication to his crew to return home in a plane that by all accounts should not have been flying. 

 

I agree with Flanker35m that anyone giving their life in the name of their country, regardless of number of kills or fame, should be remembered for the part they played.

I first found out about this in the 90s when CHBC news did a little feature on Brown and Stigler. I still have the VHS tape I recorded it with. I think Stigler is just a very good man too good of a man in fact to be a "Badass". Psychopathic traits can be handy for fighter pilots.

[FuriousMeow]

And he LOVED the morphine.

Not for the kills, but for the incredible pilot career (includind the worst part of it) and the very controversial and complex person: Hermann Goring...

No one pilot had the incredible life he had, in WW1, between wars, and in WW2. He is N°1 bad ass for me, even though i completely desagree with what he did.

[Gunsmith86]

Bodo Diemer german pilot flying JU 88 A17 torpedo bomber. (1943-1945)

 

He and his crew survived the war with 18 missions attacking convoys and the invasion fleet after D-day

From 44 crews only 3 were left at the end of WW2

 

Here is the book from him: (very good but only in german)

http://www.amazon.de/%C3%9Cberlebenschance-gleich-Null-Autobiographie-Torpedoflieger/dp/3869330422/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380231524&sr=1-1&keywords=bodo+diemer+ueberlebenschance+gleich+null

[Finkeren]

Not for the kills, but for the incredible pilot career (includind the worst part of it) and the very controversial and complex person: Hermann Goring...

No one pilot had the incredible life he had, in WW1, between wars, and in WW2. He is N°1 bad ass for me, even though i completely desagree with what he did.

I'm not going to argue with your choice just because it's controversial. We all know Göring was scum, and I think very few people today would condone his actions, but what exactly makes him bad ass?

 

I've always viewed Göring as a bit of a pompous fool, who was completely unqualified to run any of the massive organisations he was appointed to lead - not just because he was a drug addict, but because of his lack of strategic skill and his talent for causing animosity. He was apparently originally a skilled pilot and he was certainly well spoken and had quick wits, but from very early on he seemed to be in way over his head with his central position in the Third Reich.

 

Can you give me a bit of insight in, what you think makes him a bad ass?

[Rjel]

The man who commanded the USAAF's Fourth Fighter Group longer than any other, Col. Don Blakeslee. He was in combat with the Luftwaffe longer than any other American pilot. Blakeslee was, along with Col. Hub Zemke, largely responsible for the success of the U.S. air war in Europe. Someone really should have written his biography while he was living. It should still be written.

[76SQN-FatherTed]

I'm going for Richard Hillary, BoB pilot and author of "The Last Enemy".

 

If you haven't read his book, then do so. You have been ordered.

 

Basically he shot down a 110 while on fire and being burn't alive. He survived, had extensive plastic surgery before going back into co bat, eventually being shot down again and killed in combat.

I read this book and I was astounded that anyone who had been shot down in flames  and severely burnt would even contemplate getting in a combat aircraft ever again,  So there's one of my votes.  A second goes to all the other pilots  who suffered and returned similarly.  Thirdly, I always think of those bomber crews who battled back from missions with casualties on board a damaged aircraft over miles of sea, in the dark, only to have to do the whole thing again the next night.  Incredible.

[Tektolnes]

Jimmy Doolittle leading those B-25s off a carrier on a one way mission was pretty badass.

[SCG_Neun]

Erich Hartmen, not for just obtaining 352 aerial victories, but for the professional and stoic manner that he conducted himself during 10 and a half years in Russian captivity.

Hans- Ulrich Rudel, for the reasons listed above.

Gerhard Barkhorn, for 301 aerial victories and surviving the war

I realize it is distasteful to base this on aerial victories, but to face that many enemy aircraft and winning means that you are doing something right. Also, the German pilots spent so much time in action, with the accumulated stress of combat month after month, year after year, which is impressive that they were able to survive that, and accumulate the scores they did.

I know these three may not be "clever" choices, but they have impressive accomplishments to me, which are unlikely to ever be duplicatedHartmann, not Hartmen. Sorry. Stupid spell check

+1

[76SQN-FatherTed]

Okay, I'm going OT here, but I've seen a number of posts in this thread which maintain that some pilots shot down more than 10 aircraft in a single sortie.  That can't be right, can it?  More than ten confirmed kills on one ammo loadout?

[HippyDruid]

Johnny Kent.  

 

Anyone that flies into cables hanging from balloons, just to see how much damage it will do to the plane is BADARSE!

[Gunsmith86]

Okay, I'm going OT here, but I've seen a number of posts in this thread which maintain that some pilots shot down more than 10 aircraft in a single sortie.  That can't be right, can it?  More than ten confirmed kills on one ammo loadout?

 

Some of them had 30mm cannons with that one shot is mostly enough to down a fighter! 3-4 shots with 20mm!

one test shot with 30mm MK 108 on Spitfire.

 

Edited September 26, 2013 by Gunsmith86

[Fifi]

I'm not going to argue with your choice just because it's controversial. We all know Göring was scum, and I think very few people today would condone his actions, but what exactly makes him bad ass?

 

I've always viewed Göring as a bit of a pompous fool, who was completely unqualified to run any of the massive organisations he was appointed to lead - not just because he was a drug addict, but because of his lack of strategic skill and his talent for causing animosity. He was apparently originally a skilled pilot and he was certainly well spoken and had quick wits, but from very early on he seemed to be in way over his head with his central position in the Third Reich.

 

Can you give me a bit of insight in, what you think makes him a bad ass?

 

Ok, don't know what is real french translation of "bad ass"...guess it's not close to ass hole? lol

 

But Goring was a pilot at first, not that pompous fool (he turned that way later on - not even in 1939 but later). I think he even was a pretty good pilot of what i readed about him (have a very good biography) not only downing ennemy planes, but doing fine aerobatics between the 2 world wars, to get some money to live.

But as everybody knows, he was certainly the most opportunist, and full of oneself person of that time...not to say the most incompetent leader of all times (pretty close to his mentor, in fact!)

 

I said he is N°1 for me, because no pilot biography such as his, impressed me and surprised me all those different ways (good and bad).

All his life was quite incredible (again in all ways) and i still wonder how he did realised all those crazy things...

(i'm not Goring fan, opposite way in fact, but have to admit he is a very interesting subject)

[DD_bongodriver]

The Germans really loved the sport of killing and we're superb at it, quite terrifying men and machines, makes you respect anybody willing to face them all the more.

[76SQN-FatherTed]

The Germans really loved the sport of killing and we're superb at it, quite terrifying men and machines, makes you respect anybody willing to face them all the more.

Nice punctuation there BD.

 

 I just have to say that I struggle to believe these huge claims.  I'm sorry to derail the thread (mind you anything asking for opinions was always tending this way...), but why did some of the Germans have these huge tallies, whereas the highest Allied "ace" was credited with a score almost an order of magnitude lower?

[Cybermat47]

I'm going to change my mind, if that's ok.

I'm going for Richard Hillary, BoB pilot and author of "The Last Enemy".

If you haven't read his book, then do so. You have been ordered.

Basically he shot down a 110 while on fire and being burn't alive. He survived, had extensive plastic surgery before going back into co bat, eventually being shot down again and killed in combat.

Wasn't he shot at by the home guard on the way down too?

 

Franz Stigler - Despite defending his Country, as all of us would if push comes to shove, he was also a human being & did the right thing in a difficult time, facing the wrath of his own people, to help the enemy of his country survive after being shot up.

 

Charlie Brown  - the pilot of the B17 that franz Stigler was sent to finish off, for his dedication to his crew to return home in a plane that by all accounts should not have been flying. 

 

I got the book about that the other day. I haven't had the time to read it though.

 I just have to say that I struggle to believe these huge claims.  I'm sorry to derail the thread (mind you anything asking for opinions was always tending this way...), but why did some of the Germans have these huge tallies, whereas the highest Allied "ace" was credited with a score almost an order of magnitude lower?

The German 'big three' all served almost exclusively on the Eastern Front, against the inexperienced Russians. That would be a big help to the German pilots.

[SCG_Neun]

The Germans really loved the sport of killing and we're superb at it, quite terrifying men and machines, makes you respect anybody willing to face them all the more.

Sorry this topic got so far off track, and I don't know very much about the other pilots from USA, Britain, or the like, but I have read a fair amount of material on the famous Luftwaffe pilots and having done so, I can say that they did not enjoy the "sport of killing" anymore than the other famous aces did.  They respected so many of their adversaries and showed as much care for downed airman as any of the other nationalities, in addition to being primarily composed of non-party membership.  After the war many of the ones that somehow survived remained friends with guys like Bader many years after the war.  If you read comments by the men who actually fought against the Luftwaffe you will find that they had a tremendous amount of respect for the Luftwaffe and unlike many of the uniformed.....actually complemented them for their skill and accomplishments in air combat and chivalry.  In fact, many of them went on to high positions within the post war Luftwaffe. By wars end these Luftwaffe pilots had individually flown over 1500 mission each, sometimes going up 4 times in one day, over and over again, following Goring's ridiculous orders.  In addition to fighting the enemy, they were likewise fighting thug leadership, like Goring...over fighter and bomber development, and proper tactics, let alone having to deal with a bunch of liars, such as Goring and the rest of the gutless hierarchy of the Third Reich.  From 1943 on.....most of them realized the war was lost, and flew as a duty to the country, trying to reduce the damage incurred to their homeland and civilian population...and praying for an end to the war. 

Edited September 27, 2013 by JagdNeun

[SCG_Neun]

Nice punctuation there BD.

 

 I just have to say that I struggle to believe these huge claims.  I'm sorry to derail the thread (mind you anything asking for opinions was always tending this way...), but why did some of the Germans have these huge tallies, whereas the highest Allied "ace" was credited with a score almost an order of magnitude lower?

I think many of the huge tallies were gleaned on the Eastern Front in early years, but not all.  But lets face it, the other countries rotated their fighter pilots out of combat after so many missions, on leave and to get a rest.  The germans could not afford such luxuries, and the more missions you fly....the more combat opportunities you are going to have...it stands to reason the tallies are just going to be higher.  Just surviving 1600 combat mission without getting killed from mechanical failure, weather and the like is a miracle in itself.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

 

 I just have to say that I struggle to believe these huge claims.  I'm sorry to derail the thread (mind you anything asking for opinions was always tending this way...), but why did some of the Germans have these huge tallies, whereas the highest Allied "ace" was credited with a score almost an order of magnitude lower?

 

It quite simple, After the outbreak of war the Alies had set up massive aIrcrew train programs like the British  Empire Air Training Scheme. These training programs trained litteraly hundereds of thousands of aircrew. The Germans had nothing like it in comparison to the the scale of these training schemes.

 

After a Allied pilot had become successful they more likely to be transfered into an instructor role to pass their hard earned skills onto the next generation of pilots. Germany did not have that luxury. Their 100+ kill aces were forced by circumstance to stay in the front line until they were either killed or the war ended.

 

It also explains why even though Germany started off the war with a highly trained corp of pilots by the end of the war the standard for the new pilots had generally fallen.

 

Cheers!

[DD_bongodriver]

Yes, a superhuman performance, quite amazing men combined with machines so incredibly efficient, awe inspiring.

[SCG_Neun]

Yes, a superhuman performance, quite amazing men combined with machines so incredibly efficient, awe inspiring.

To me this is a perfect comment for the British fighter pilots during the Battle of Britain.  Incredible bravery, not only the pilots, but the country as a whole.....And the Spitfire....well what else is there to say?

[Feathered_IV]

Sadaaki Akamatsu

 

 

In one of the worlds strictest military regimes, any man who can arrive for battle half drunk and wearing a ladies kimono and wooden clogs - and get away with it, is very badass indeed.

 

Edit: sorry, a bit late to the party. I see the topic has already shifted.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Feathered_IV

[Crump]

 

Yes, a superhuman performance, quite amazing men combined with machines so incredibly efficient, awe inspiring.          

 

 

I think everybody gets your position.

[gavagai]

Starting to get a little disappointing this thread is based on kills.

 

 

Hard to argue with them for a thread with "bad ass" in the title.

[Dakpilot]

The Germans really loved the sport of killing and we're superb at it, quite terrifying men and machines, makes you respect anybody willing to face them all the more.

Yes, a superhuman performance, quite amazing men combined with machines so incredibly efficient, awe inspiring.

 

[Original_Uwe]

For someone complaining about the thread going downhill bongodriver is doing his level best to kill it.

 

Regardless I nominate Galland for all he did during the war, and for flying ground support missions In a biplane during the Spanish civil war in nothing but his boxers. Not to mention his chivalrous approach to his occupation and opponents.

[BMW801]

Some of the allied personnel had difficulty believing the high German victory tallies after the war also. They were investigated in depth and one of the main conclusions was that the Germans had some of the strictest criteria for aerial victory confirmations of anyone.

[Finkeren]

Some of the allied personnel had difficulty believing the high German victory tallies after the war also. They were investigated in depth and one of the main conclusions was that the Germans had some of the strictest criteria for aerial victory confirmations of anyone.

Regardless of the criteria, German pilots propably still overclaimed just as bad as everyone else.

 

There are several cases (primarily USAAF bombing raids over western Europe) where we know exactly how many aircraft were lost on both sides, and where most kills occured over German controlled land. The Luftwaffe still overclaimed by a factor of 2 - 3, while the allied bomber crews overclaimed by a factor of 5 - 6 ( which isn't surprising given the difficulty in seperating and confirming individual victories of hundreds of gunners firing at the same targets over occupied territory)

[II./JG27_Rich]

The Germans really loved the sport of killing and we're superb at it, quite terrifying men and machines, makes you respect anybody willing to face them all the more.

Beurling gave chats across his native country of Canada after being injured. "It felt great to see their heads explode" I've read four books about how to spot psychopaths - sociopaths and a guy who blurts that out to a crowd of people may have some hits on Dr, Hare's psychopath check list. I've read Rall talk about Rudel blabing away about how many tanks he had killed after they were captured. Rall couldn't get away from him fast enough he said. Same thing as Beurling I would guess.

Edited September 27, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[II./JG27_Rich]

Here's a psychopath test. A woman is at her sisters wedding. She sees a man at the wedding that she thinks is her match for life. Two weeks later the woman kills her sister. Why did she do it?

 

She thought her man might come to the funeral.....Totally logical for a psycopath. All she's probably after him for is money though. Emotions don't count only anger if she's challenged. Sorry for going on but these kind of people are 2% of the population and you better watch out for their charms LOL. They are interesting as hell though.

Edited September 27, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[II./JG27_Rich]

One thing I picked up on Heinrich Bartels.....Open with WordPad

Bartels Story..rtf

Edited September 27, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[DD_bongodriver]

I think everybody gets your position.

 

Good, I'm glad that my honesty is apparent, I'd hate to be one of those agenda led types that need to hide their true position.

[JG1_Pragr]

1) Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin - The man who made the most for surviving VVS and probably more than anyone and anything else. Leader able to fight with his own superiors for his own subordinates under the brutal political system.

 

2) Johannes "Hannes" Trautloft - High respected and skillful commander. And once again the man able to risk his own position for what he considered to be right and honour, despite very dangerous conditions.

 

3) Fantišek Fajtl. He left his home after the occupation. He fought in Armeé de l'Air during the battle of France. Then he joined Royal Air Force and VVS. He was shot down over the occupied France while leading No.122 squadron. He had avoided the capture and returned back to the Britain through Vichy France and Spain. To be able to command the fighting unit he dropped his rank (wing commander). After several months in command of No.313 squadron he relieved from RAF service and went to Russia. There he joined VVS and fight with his squadron during Slovak national uprising from airfields deep in German territory. At the end of the war he led the wing consists of 2 fighter and one CAS squadrons (La-5FN and Il-2). With this unit he returned to his home after 6 years of fighting.

[Elem]

If we are including Bader then Aleksey Maresyev must also be up there after what he went through and still came back to down 3 Fw-190s in one sortie....

 

http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/space-and-aviation/aleksey-maresyev/

[DB605]

Regardless of the criteria, German pilots propably still overclaimed just as bad as everyone else.

 

Sure they did but after all, they still have lots of more kills than any allied pilot.

 

It's sometimes funny to wonder what if any of allied (especially US) pilots would have, say 200 kills, he would be real superhero today and at least dozen of hollywood movies would have made about him

[DD_bongodriver]

Sure they did but after all, they still have lots of more kills than any allied pilot.

 

It's sometimes funny to wonder what if any of allied (especially US) pilots would have, say 200 kills, he would be real superhero today and at least dozen of hollywood movies would have made about him

 

I know right......shame that the Allies won the war, all these Hollywood movies being made about such inferior pilots instead of the real superheroes.

[II./JG27_Rich]

Sure they did but after all, they still have lots of more kills than any allied pilot.

 

It's sometimes funny to wonder what if any of allied (especially US) pilots would have, say 200 kills, he would be real superhero today and at least dozen of hollywood movies would have made about him

"HAMMER DOWN" 

[Finkeren]

Sure they did but after all, they still have lots of more kills than any allied pilot.

 

It's sometimes funny to wonder what if any of allied (especially US) pilots would have, say 200 kills, he would be real superhero today and at least dozen of hollywood movies would have made about him

I'm not arguing the fact that the Luftwaffe top aces scored more kills, they most certainly did - for a variety of reasons, I simply state, that overclaiming was a significant factor in all airforces, and Luftwaffe was no exception.

 

Now, can we get back on topic?