Most badass WW2 pilot?

[Finkeren]

We've had a few threads discussing our favourite aircraft, theatres of war etc. What I'd like to do with this thread is have people give their oppinions about, who they think were the most badass pilots in WW2.

 

The rules: Name three pilots, and for each give a short explanation of the criteria, which made you chose each one.

 

The criteria you use is completely up to you. It can be kill score, piloting capabilities, tenacity, importance for the evolution of air combat or simply a single event, where the pilot performed exceptionally. 

 

Please keep descriptions brief and as non-political as posible.

 

My three:

 

1: Anna Yegorova

 

 

This was a girl that fought with unparalelled tenacity. After spending some time in a Po-2 she flew at least 270 combat missions in the IL-2, performing a string of impressive feats only to be shot down in mid 1944 having nearly every bone in her body broken. She then endured months of torturous interogations, first by her German captors, and then by the NKVD. Bad ass girl, who didn't back down.

 

2: Hans-Ulrich Rudel

 

Highest decorated of any Luftwaffe pilot ever, his combat record is just too impressive to ignore. Depite being initially relegated to non-combat duty due to being labeled as a "slow learner", he flew more than 2500 combat missions for a score of over 2000 destroyed targets, including over 500 tanks and a friggin' battleship! All achieved in an aircraft, that was largely obsolete by the time he started flying it. Depite being forced down 32 times, he never was shot down by another aircraft. Even allowing for some over-claiming, Rudel was propably more destructive than some German divisions.

 

3: Nadezhda Popova

Surviving 852 combat missions in the Po-2 is perhaps the most impressive single feat of WW2. Popova was an intriguing character, playing the part of the good samaritan, dropping food and medical suplies to encircled troops and civilians, only to shift to silent assassin later that night, when she would glide in, engine off, to drop her bombs on German positions. Cheating death constantly through 3 years, flying as many as 18 sorties per day during some periods, it's a wonder she didn't break down due to stress. But she survived and lived right up to this summer, when she died at the age of 91.

 

Looking forward to see other peoples nominees.

[DD_bongodriver]

Good list, well thought out argument.

 

My contribution would be Douglas 'badass' Bader, I don't really regard him as my favourite or any such thing but I am full of respect for the achievements of a man who lost both legs prior to the war and went on to be a top scoring ace despite, there is much more to his story too.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

My list without pics and in no particular order.

 

1. Saburo Sakai. IJN ace with 64 kills in Zero. Survived the war and defeated death many times. 500 mile navigation back to base after being seriously hit by TBF defensive fire and landing the plane.

 

2. Ilmari Juutilainen. 94 kills, unofficial tally as high as 128 kills. Never hit by enemy fighter nor shot down. Incredible 3D vision of the battlefield contributed to his ability reading the battle and controlling it.

 

3. All those pilots who did their job and gave the biggest sacrifice, their own life in the line of duty.

[Cybermat47]

3. All those pilots who did their job and gave the biggest sacrifice, their own life in the line of duty.

Yeah. R.I.P.

[Gspot]

 

Must be finnish ace in WWII, Ilmari Juutilainen.

 

Despite his 94 approved air kills he was never shot by enemy plane.Not a single bullet hole from enemy fighters was ever found on his plane.

he did get hits from enemy AA several times, he even ditched once,but but against enemy planes  he was immune to enemy fire.He was just that good.

When he trained in germany for BF109 even german luftwaffe pilots admired his ability to coordinate plane and his incredible accuracy.

He was 2x  mannerheim cross knight and also german iron cross both 2:nd and 1 class was awarded to him.

Due to very strict search for every claimed  kill he most likely still  has over 25-30 more air kills which makes him, even compared to german luftawaffe aces, pretty high on total list.

 on all time aces, specially when compared non-german pilots.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Gspot

[Zmaj76]

Without a doubt it was Hans Joachim Marseille...he excellend in every aspect.....and he had 17 kills in one day....he would have probably around 700 kills if he lived till the end of the war...

 

Very simmilar was Werner Voss from WW1 who, if he lived, would be probably better scorer than MVR...he was a better "killer"....

Edited September 26, 2013 by Tvrdi

[Cybermat47]

Without a doubt it was Hans Joachim Marseille...he excellend in every aspect.....and he had 17 kills in one day....he would have probably around 700 kills if he lived till the end of the war...

 

I agree. Erich Hartmann and Adolf Galland both regarded him as the best pilot in the Luftwaffe.

[DD_bongodriver]

Starting to get a little disappointing this thread is based on kills.

[MadTommy]

The one and only Douglas Bader

 

The ace with no legs.. and so much more.

Edited September 26, 2013 by MadTommy

[Finkeren]

Starting to get a little disappointing this thread is based on kills.

Nah, not entirely. Besides, we haven't had any of the 3 big shots yet.

 

I think ppl so far do a good job explaining how their picks are badasses, but I wish they would choose 3, like I suggested.

[Zmaj76]

Nah, not entirely. Besides, we haven't had any of the 3 big shots yet.

 

I think ppl so far do a good job explaining how their picks are badasses, but I wish they would choose 3, like I suggested.

Dude, read something about Marseille....maybe a book....this will explain why it was a badass (and much more outside the war/aviation thing) even if you dont count his skills and kills....

 

@ NotSoMadTommy - I agree about Bader....

Edited September 26, 2013 by Tvrdi

[Finkeren]

Dude, read something about Marseille....maybe a book....this will explain why it was a badass (and much more outside the war/aviation thing) even if you dont count his skills and kills....

 

@ NotSoMadTommy - I agree about Bader....

Are you sure that comment was directed at me? I was giving you all probs for giving good explanations.

 

The only objectionable thing I see in your post is the 700 kill figure, it's a perfect example of why most long extrapolations are meaningless.

[Cybermat47]

If this thread was about aces in general, I'd have to say that Israeli pilot who got five kills in the Seven Day war.

[Crump]

 

Although continuously in action until 1945, “Addi” Glunz was never shot down or wounded in aerial combat.

 

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/glunz.html

 

71 victories

 

All on the Western Front from November 1940 till the end.

 

NCO pilot too. 

[Finkeren]

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/glunz.html

 

71 victories

 

All on the Western Front from November 1940 till the end.

 

NCO pilot too.

That's a pretty impressive list, almost all Spitfires, P-47s and P-51s.

 

Proving, once again, that Soviet fighters (of which he only scored 3) were far superior to their Western counterparts :D

[Crump]

 

Proving, once again, that Soviet fighters (of which he only scored 3) were far superior to their Western counterparts :D          

 

 

Well considering that he only spent a couple weeks on the Eastern Front and was just out of basic fighter training, it might not be such a good reflection on Soviet fighter pilots.    In fact, it just notes e/a so it could have been the Peoples Weekend Glider club for all we know.  Except the fact we know under the efficient Soviet system, the Peoples glider club only had gliders available on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.  Tow planes were available Tuesday and Thursday.

 

Essentially he travelled out with JG52 after spending a few months on the channel to turn right around and travel back to JG 26.  Nice to know all Militaries have such efficiency in personnel management.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Crump

[DD_bongodriver]

Well this is going south.....

[Jaws2002]

Bazu Cantacuzino was pretty bad a$$. Just watch him fly that Jungmeister:

 

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6NXEmAYJ4xU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6NXEmAYJ4xU

 

He got some 45 kills as well, ending up the highest scoring Romanin pilot in ww2.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Cantacuzino_(aviator)

 

[Requiem]

No doubt in my mind, the most bad ass was Douglas Bader. Attempting escape so many times it forced the Germans to threat confiscating his prosthetics is pretty crazy.

[leitmotiv]

1. Gregory Pappy Boyington

 

http://www.acesofww2.com/USA/aces/boyington/#.UkRRjYZkOgU

 

http://www.historynet.com/pappy-boyington-interview-with-the-us-world-war-ii-ace.htm

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yyZY1aauxk

 

to go with rules

 

2. Robin Olds

 

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2008/June%202008/0608olds.aspx

 

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=784151231971

 

 

3. Hans Joachim Marseille

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxwFrpjOgeg

Edited September 26, 2013 by Yaklover

[saf]

George "Buzz" Beurling.  He had some character

[ImPeRaToR]

Don't want to go as far as calling him the most badass, but one of my "favourites" is Otto "Bruno" Kittel for shooting down the highest number of il2s, 94.

 

The other two would be Erich Rudorffer and August Lambert

 

Some of Erich Rudorffer feats:

He shot down eight British aircraft in 32 minutes on 9 February 1943

On 24 August 1943, he shot down five Russian aircraft on the first mission

He scored seven victories in seven minutes on 11 October

but his finest achievement occurred on 6 November when in the course of 17 minutes, 13 Russian aircraft fell to his guns!

 

13 kills in one sortie is pretty impressive.

 

August Lambert was a Schlachtflieger who shot down 116 enemy planes, most them within a very short time frame over the crimea between april and may '44 during the German retreat, heavily outnumbered by the VVS.

 

Wikipedia quote

 

II./Schlachtgeschwader 2 was heavily involved in the Crimean campaign during early-mid 1944, and in addition to its usual ground-attack work flew interception sorties, claiming some 247 Soviet aircraft shot down. On 10 April 1944 he claimed 4 victories (1 Yak-9, 1 P-39 Airacobra and 2 Il-2 Sturmoviks), on 17 April 1944 12 victories (including 5 Il-2 Sturmovik) and on 17 May 1944 some 14 Victories. Leutnant Lambert claimed some 70 kills during one three-week period.[1] Lambert received the Ritterkreuz on 14 May 1944. By May 1944, the depleted II./SG 2 retired to bases in Romania.

Edited September 26, 2013 by ImPeRaToR

[Mysticpuma]

Damn, just beaten to it!

 

Pappy Boyington...fits all the criteria and wouldn't give a s*** about it

[II./JG27_Rich]

Without a doubt it was Hans Joachim Marseille...he excellend in every aspect.....and he had 17 kills in one day....he would have probably around 700 kills if he lived till the end of the war...

 

Very simmilar was Werner Voss from WW1 who, if he lived, would be probably better scorer than MVR...he was a better "killer"....

+1

 

Must be finnish ace in WWII, Ilmari Juutilainen.

 

Despite his 94 approved air kills he was never shot by enemy plane.Not a single bullet hole from enemy fighters was ever found on his plane.

he did get hits from enemy AA several times, he even ditched once,but but against enemy planes  he was immune to enemy fire.He was just that good.

When he trained in germany for BF109 even german luftwaffe pilots admired his ability to coordinate plane and his incredible accuracy.

He was 2x  mannerheim cross knight and also german iron cross both 2:nd and 1 class was awarded to him.

Due to very strict search for every claimed  kill he most likely still  has over 25-30 more air kills which makes him, even compared to german luftawaffe aces, pretty high on total list.

 on all time aces, specially when compared non-german pilots.

I'll never forget some History Chanel program mentioned Juutilainen as an Allied pilot.

[SGCstavka]

Hi,

 

Its amazing that no one talked about this one (maybe because he take down many Bf109's and FW190s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kozhedub

Edited September 26, 2013 by KNBstavka

[Furio]

He downed also two P51...

[SYN_Ricky]

George "Buzz" Beurling. He had some character

I was thinking about him too. He really fought against all odds to become a pilot and as you say he had some character Definitely fits the "badass" term.

[Finkeren]

He downed also two P51...

Which is more than can be said about many Luftwaffe aces #badass

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Have to go with Hans-Ulrich Rudel for #1, for all the reasons Finkeren listed and then some. Had he been allied pilot, there would be more than one movie about him.

[=LD=Scronce]

Sweet thread keep posting the kill per sortie stuff

[HagarTheHorrible]

I'm going for Stanford Tuck.

 

29 victories, shot down and captured but ended up volunteering and fighting with the Soviet army as they advanced on Germany.

 

Quiet frankly though it's a bit of a rum job, because it tends to concentrate on fighter pilots and kills rather than grit and determination. Pity the poor Lysander pilot dropping agents into France at dead of night, no publicity, no glory, only a summary execution if caught.

[Finkeren]

Quiet frankly though it's a bit of a rum job, because it tends to concentrate on fighter pilots and kills rather than grit and determination. Pity the poor Lysander pilot dropping agents into France at dead of night, no publicity, no glory, only a summary execution if caught.

That's what I tried to let shine through in the OP. I think in general we put too much emphasis on killing, when assessing the contribution of soldiers in wars. It is an inescapable fact, that in any war the far majority of soldiers, even in the front line, never kill a single enemy combatant, and in many cases never even fire their weapons in anger.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I'm going to change my mind, if that's ok.

 

I'm going for Richard Hillary, BoB pilot and author of "The Last Enemy".

 

If you haven't read his book, then do so. You have been ordered.

 

Basically he shot down a 110 while on fire and being burn't alive. He survived, had extensive plastic surgery before going back into co bat, eventually being shot down again and killed in combat.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I'm going to change my mind, if that's ok.

 

I'm going for Richard Hillary, BoB pilot and author of "The Last Enemy".

 

If you haven't read his book, then do so. You have been ordered.

 

Basically he shot down a 110 while on fire and being burn't alive. He survived, had extensive plastic surgery before going back into co bat, eventually being shot down again and killed in combat.

 

I've read that many years ago. A great book and he represents more of your typical fighter pilot rather than the 'gods' everyone goes on about all the time.

[Panzerlang]

_{Me and my school mates used to cross-country past Douglas Bader on occasion, while he was practising his golf driving on Epsom Downs. We were under instructions to "not to bother him". Which was probably just as well, he had a reputation for being a proper curmudgeon. I think I was the only kid who knew who he was though.}

[BMW801]

Erich Hartmen, not for just obtaining 352 aerial victories, but for the professional and stoic manner that he conducted himself during 10 and a half years in Russian captivity.

 

Hans- Ulrich Rudel, for the reasons listed above.

 

Gerhard Barkhorn, for 301 aerial victories and surviving the war

 

I realize it is distasteful to base this on aerial victories, but to face that many enemy aircraft and winning means that you are doing something right. Also, the German pilots spent so much time in action, with the accumulated stress of combat month after month, year after year, which is impressive that they were able to survive that, and accumulate the scores they did.

 

I know these three may not be "clever" choices, but they have impressive accomplishments to me, which are unlikely to ever be duplicated

Hartmann, not Hartmen. Sorry. Stupid spell check

[BMW801]

In addition, I read The Blond Knight of Germany and " Stuka Pilot" this year and liked what I read about these men, and also the way they described Barkhorn. They sound quite different from Rene Fonck of wwI with his famous arrogance

[II./JG27_Rich]

I've always wanted to find out more about Heinrich Bartels, 99 wins. KIA Dec. 23 1944. In any book I've read about Luftwaffe fighter pilots he's usually talked about briefly as a "Dogfighter" stick and rudder man etc. He has 11 P-51s shot down.

[fergal69]

Franz Stigler - Despite defending his Country, as all of us would if push comes to shove, he was also a human being & did the right thing in a difficult time, facing the wrath of his own people, to help the enemy of his country survive after being shot up.

 

Charlie Brown  - the pilot of the B17 that franz Stigler was sent to finish off, for his dedication to his crew to return home in a plane that by all accounts should not have been flying. 

 

I agree with Flanker35m that anyone giving their life in the name of their country, regardless of number of kills or fame, should be remembered for the part they played.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I think that there is nothing wrong in it if your opinion about who is the most badass is based on the number of planes they shot down. Shooting down more than 300 enemy planes and surviving the conditions luftwaffe pilots faced from mid 1944 to the end of the war sounds pretty badass to me. Not saying that it's the only way to determine who was, just that it is totally valid.