VKB Gladiator joystick project

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

its 197 Euro - but without 21 % Vat, so actual price for any Eu citizen is aprox 240 Euro.

That's the thing. 300€ (with Vat) for "just" a stick is simply too much, be it of good quality or not.

[Lusekofte]

 

 

That's the thing. 300€ (with Vat) for "just" a stick is simply too much, be it of good quality or not.

 

I simply do not agree, I payed 300 $ just for the grip on my stick, nothing is too expensive if you can afford it. Sometime I cannot afford to buy beer at the store, then they are to expensive . A bread is expensive if you cannot afford it.

All equipment ment for entertaining should not be restricted because of the price manufacturing it, you simply need to make sure you got cheaper alternatives.  

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Quite contrary, just because you can afford it doesnt mean you have to buy it, regardless of the price. It's not only about having money but also whether one deems it necessary or worthy enough to obtain it. But part of the problem is that Eu is literally the worst place to buy electronics. Oh well, maybe Australia can compete here. With VAT and few other things even reasonable prices in US turn into madness in Eu. 

[Lusekofte]

Not what I talking about, it is only up to the buyers subjective opinion if things are worth paying for, there simply do not exist something called too expensive, if it is you are simply not interested in it. 

I want a real chopper to fly, but I am not stupid enough to buy it. I am not talking in these proportions

[Sokol1]

21% VAT? You guys have luck.

 

If I buy through Amazon will pay ~95% of taxes there - applicable over the goods price and over the shipping price.

 

I dont pay even 99$ in Warthog stick - years ago we have stick only in a flash sales for 199$ the best price I see over the Net - because don't like their ergonomics and as I fly more WWII planes want buttons to press and not HAT corners, and their gimbal system - but for many people the HOTAS combo worth their local price of 750$.

This all resume on individual wishes/needs/possibilities.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Other user video - 7:09 graphical analysis.

 

 

Notice he did that non recommended Windows Game Controllers calibration - but don't hit APPLY.

 

Flying in "Warthundera". 

Edited August 3, 2016 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

New WIZZO (V.072 beta) released: http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Programms/wizzo_v0_72.zip

 

image post

 

 

Gladiator "winning hearts and minds." 

 

 

[Sokol1]

Gladiator MOD "ON" 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4718-modern-talking-gladiator/

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Gladiator MOD "ON" 

 

-snip-

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4718-modern-talking-gladiator/

 

Taking the bicycle brake handle to a new... Literal... Level there!

Edited August 22, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[Sokol1]

Gunfighter is "near".

 

"Now focused on Gunfighter, the release is close. After Gunfighter,  the throttle - metal multi-axial multi-button throttle." 

[dburne]

Gunfighter is "near".

 

"Now focused on Gunfighter, the release is close. After Gunfighter,  the throttle - metal multi-axial multi-button throttle." 

 

Two weeks?

 

So are they going to continue to produce and sell Gladiator Pro in parallel with Gunfighter as well?

Any idea if Gunfighter will be limited in production qty - pre-order only type of thing? Or will they be mass produced for a while?

Edited August 31, 2016 by dburne

[Sokol1]

Probable sell both, Gunfighter due his metal base, external controller will fit in a price range above Gladiator PRO.

 

And are market for "buttons on base" desktop joystick - what Gladiator PRO is, just with better gimbal.

 

The events indicate that VKB rent a factory for a batch of products at ~every 4 mounts - so no expect a exactly "mass production".

[dburne]

Probable sell both, Gunfighter due his metal base, external controller will fit in a price range above Gladiator PRO.

 

And are market for "buttons on base" desktop joystick - what Gladiator PRO is, just with better gimbal.

 

The events indicate that VKB rent a factory for a batch of products at ~every 4 mounts - so no expect a exactly "mass production".

 

Ok thanks for the info, I will keep an eye out for the Gunfighter.

I am most interested in using it with my Warthog grip. Though I would love to use an extension with it , but at the same time I realized perhaps it is not needed with the Gunfighter base...

[Sokol1]

Javelin  - Ravcore Gladiator "clone" for Polish market.

 

https://www.ravcore.com/produkty/javelin/

 

Their information about POV HAT and sensors type are wrong - not big deal. Seem that price reflect better the... "saves on manufacturer".

[Matt]

Hi, can anybody tell me the diameter of the disc with those 6 screws that attaches the grip to the plastic base? I'm thinking about buying a Gladiator and mounting it on the Warthog base, with the gimbal inside the Warthog base, that's why i'm asking. 

 

EDIT: Nevermind, i just ordered one and will check myself.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Matt

[TWC_Ace]

Javelin  - Ravcore Gladiator "clone" for Polish market.

 

 

https://www.ravcore.com/produkty/javelin/

 

Their information about POV HAT and sensors type are wrong - not big deal. Seem that price reflect better the... "saves on manufacturer".

The real question is - what is the difference between Gladiator and this clone? Same MARS sensors? Same pots and gimbals? Same quality od plastics? Price? Many questions arise...

Edited September 26, 2016 by blackram

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Price I found was 270 PLN, which is 63 Euro. Of course everything in PLN looks like its cheap for anyone who earns in Euro/Dollars. But I'm also curious about internals and how it differs from standard Gladiator, if its not much different than I'd recommend it to few friends who certainly would benefit from a new stick. 

[Sokol1]

The real question is - what is the difference between Gladiator and this clone? Same MARS sensors? Same pots and gimbals? Same quality od plastics? Price? Many questions arise...

 

1st difference: Potentiometer instead MaRS sensor in "twist rudder" axis.

 

2nd difference: Firmware with few adjust options (calibration, deadzone, resolution) and the biggest drawback, without ability to load new buttons configuration - what is the great differential of Gladiator.

 

In the rest they are the same joystick (plastic, MaRS sensor in X,Y axis, ARM32 USB controller, etc), Gladiator and their "clones" are made in the same factory - probable the "clones" under less strict QC control, using OEM products standards.

 

Unfortunately these OEM brands, AIRROW, Javelin... sell what the manufacture sell for then, so they advise the joystick as "HALL sensor" and not MaRS because for the factory this "sounds better", due Thrustmaster "HEART HALL" advertising.

For potential consumers - those who are not "blind" for details - this lead to think that internals has more difference than the potentiometer in

...

 

Even the connectors "Sys" and "Rudder" in back side - what in Gladiator can be used to plug T-Rudder and future VKB controllers - the "clones" had, although is not know if in this models has practical use, probable locked in firmware. *

 

 

Price I found was 270 PLN, which is 63 Euro. Of course everything in PLN looks like its cheap for anyone who earns in Euro/Dollars.

 

Based on Gladiator (USA) price = 99.99$ ~ 89 Euros, this 63 Euros looks good - not that this mean cheap in Poland (I don't know).

AIRROW in most places, is 89 Euros.

 

EDIT - Here UIV (VKB) answer the questions about differences in OEM versions ("clones") one more time.

Basically is what I post above, but putting the link in Google Translator you can read reasonable well.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2579-gladiator-novyj-byudzhetnyj-dzhoj-ot-vkb/page-81?do=findComment&comment=453545

 

He add a 3rd difference, in (VKB) Gladiator, the pads under base bottom that make contact with desktop surface is in silicone, in OEM models is rubber.

 

* Ravcore Javelin manual say "Jack for connecting external devices with digital interface" and their calibration software has option for set resolution for "Rudder, Left Brake, Right Brake" (besides "X, Y, Twist, Throttle"), what suggest option for external Rudder Pedal... but which?

 

https://www.ravcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/manual-JAVELIN_IM.pdf

 

 

This above options and Bootloader button is not available in AIRROW software.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

OK. Seems that Javelin - who cost less - have a plus over AIRROW:

 

Q- So, this version is compatible with T-Rudder?

 

A (VKB) - Yes, compatible.

Speedlink said "We no need the 'Bootloader' and 'Pedals' function for Airrow utility."

Edited September 27, 2016 by Sokol1

[TWC_Ace]

Well Sokol, then Javelin Glad is excellent buy for 63 euros. Same sensors, plastics, and gimbal mechanism like in the Glad...twist function shouldnt be a problem since "serious" simmer uses pedals in any case. More button config is a bit of a bummer but tbh Im used to have extra buttons on keyboard and (with my TiR ON),  on joystick I only need buttons for flaps, weapons and thats it, more or less....Interesting....

thanky you for clarification

 

I wonder in which of the EU countries we would be able to order Javelin Glad...for now its Poland only? Or is there any webstore which would distribute them in EU....???

Edited September 28, 2016 by blackram

[Sokol1]

Yes, but don't forget the famous "Chinese QC control".

 

For button config, although not practical like VKB Config software writing profiles direct in joystick EPROM memory, these "clones" can use Joy2Key, Xpadder, SVMapper... and use multiples profiles, including changing, reconfigure "on the fly", like for other "entry-level" joystick.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Sokol1

[Slaw]

Unfortunately these OEM brands, AIRROW, Javelin... sell what the manufacture sell for then, so they advise the joystick as "HALL sensor" and not MaRS because for the factory this "sounds better", due Thrustmaster "HEART HALL" advertising.

 

VKB Gladiator  and OEM versions have the same MARS v5 sensors (except twist). Packaging has an error. https://www.ravcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/javelin_1.jpg  Furthermore the location of HAT-switch erroneously indicated   https://www.ravcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/javelin_4.jpg

Edited September 29, 2016 by Slaw

[Sokol1]

 

 

VKB Gladiator  and OEM versions have the same MARS v5 sensors (except twist).

 

You should say: "VKB Gladiator  and OEM versions have the same MARS v5 sensors (except in OEM twist).

 

Or some people will start think that Gladiator don't use MaRS on twist rudder.    

[Sokol1]

Gladiator MOD "ON" 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4718-modern-talking-gladiator/

 

Other "bicycle" MOD, the knurled rubber cover for bicycle grip over Gladiator grip:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2579-gladiator-novyj-byudzhetnyj-dzhoj-ot-vkb/page-89?do=findComment&comment=466390

[[Vietnam]Hoang_Anh]

Hello, I'm going to order a Gladiator from VKB official site http://shop.vkb-sim.pro/items/gladiator/

They said it's from China. I wonder if it's HALL sensor or MaRS?

 

благодарим за выбор продукции ВКБ 

От Вас поступил 
2384 Gladiator
Все джойстики, завезенные в Россию, были реализованы 
Сейчас джойстики Gladiator ещё есть в наличии на нашем складе в Китае 
Отправка возможна через компанию СДЭК 
Стоимость доставки напрямую из Китая 18-25УСД в зависимости от города поставки, ориентировочный срок 9-20 дней 
Оплата возможна через Вестерн Юнион 
Сообщите мне, пожалуйста , подходит вам такой вариант или нет 
Если подходит, я пришлю вам реквизиты на оплату 
Новая партия джойстиков Gladiator запущена в производство. Срок завершения производства фабрика пока не назвала. Обычно это не менее 40-50 дней 
После завершения нового производства планируется поставка партии джойстиков в Россию 
В этом случае будет не возможна оплата в рублях на счет 
Если ваш заказ не актуален - напишите мне, пожалуйста 
Если вы хотите перенести вашу заявку на следующую партию - также напишите мне, пожалуйста 
Спасибо!

С уважением, Ольга 

VKB Team.

В случае необходимости приложить к письму фотографии или картинки, пожалуйста, перед отправкой убедитетсь что их расмер не превышает 500кб

[Sokol1]

Hello, I'm going to order a Gladiator from VKB official site http://shop.vkb-sim.pro/items/gladiator/

 

They said it's from China. I wonder if it's HALL sensor or MaRS?

 

 

VKB Gladiator and OEM versions (AIRROM, Javelin) use MaRS sensors in X, Y axis.  VKB Gladiator use MaRS too in twist rudder, OEM versions common use potentiometer.

 

Don't exist Gladiator with HALL sensor - this term is incorrect used by Chinese advertisements because HALL is use by Thrustmaster and MaRS sounds like something from... Mars. 

 

The link is for VKB web store, primarily for attend Russian market, so you will receive MaRS in X, Y an twist axis. 

[banPilot]

Does anybody know what the deal is with this project:

 

Or is the latest official word that they're making a separate throttle?

[Sokol1]

This model was postponed, other became priority, like a standalone throttle in development, multi buttons grips.

 

See their "2017 Resolutions list":

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2998724&postcount=279

 

Is planed a kind of  "desktop console" Gunfighter - the "FAT Gunfighter", see  3D render there - not defined yet:

 

http://www.vkb-sim.com.ar/gunfighter-mki-cjg9

 

EDIT - 3D Render leaked, "pipes" fixed. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Sokol1

[banPilot]

Well that's disappointing, why share these renders and not make a product out of it in almost 2 years...

[Sokol1]

The "console" in 3D render looks use a aluminum box, what is more easy/cheap to produce, specially in small quantity for a niche of niche product (a integrated 'HOTAS') than produce the plastic version, molds for injection  will cost - in China - 20K$ or more.

[sinned]

I am very interested so i have been following vkb for a while. it seems vkb products are all the place.

 

Gladiator pro and standard... i dont mind paying high dollars for high products but aside from metal gimbal, does it justify 200 more? Does pro offer metal trigger or anything else? What does metal gimal really provide? Precision? What does gunfighter provide more than gladiator pro? Why should i choose gunfighter over pro or standard? Why gunfighter any different from gunfighter pro aside extension? Can i buy gladiator and put extension?

 

Difference between products are hard to grasp. Does gunfighter provide metal trigger? If vkb will later launch a seperate stick, can i buy that and install onto gladiator standard? If i am interested in later launch stick, why should i buy gunfighter pro and spend more when i only paid 300+ just for base?

[Sokol1]

Well, VKB "Next Gen" gimbal - used in Black Mamba (LE), Vintage Mamba (LE) and Gladiator PRO 1st edition - cost as upgrade ~160$ (12/2015).

 

To had a reference, since no other commercial joystick use "all metal, bearings gimbal", in Tm Cougar "hey days", after maker gimbals done in CNC and using bearings (similar to VKB "Next Gen") was sold by ~400/500$ (e.g. UberNXT).

 

Gladiator "vanilla" (all plastic) cost 80-99$, considerable more than similar products, T.16000M, Cobra M5 (discontinued) ~60$.

But use more advanced contactless sensor, inclusive in Twist stick, this other models use low cost pot, has better usability (physical + virtual buttons)

and try improved gimbal operation with damper effect - how success had is I don't know.

 

Gladiator PRO 1st edition is Gladiator "vanilla" + "Next Gen" gimbal, hit the market by 220-250$ (China and USA prices).

 

Gunfighter/Gunf. PRO came with improved gimbal, with this "dry clutch" mechanism, naturally became more costly.

 

KG-12B plastic grip in Gladiator PRO, Gunfighter, Gunfighter PRO use metal trigger by standard. This trigger is available as upgrade for Gladiator "vanilla" for 12$.

 

They worth their price? Think this is very personal, based in expectations/needs. By numbers Saitek X-5x seems better cost/benefit, the "more for less" - depends how you look. 

 

 

Gladiator pro and standard... i dont mind paying high dollars for high products but aside from metal gimbal, does it justify 200 more? Does pro offer metal trigger or anything else? What does metal gimal really provide? Precision? What does gunfighter provide more than gladiator pro? Why should i choose gunfighter over pro or standard? Why gunfighter any different from gunfighter pro aside extension? Can i buy gladiator and put extension?

 

1 - Yes metal trigger (Glad.PRO, Gunfighter and Gunf.PRO) Maybe latter you have opportunity to buy KG-12-B grip  in metal for estimated ~190$ - If consider that metal shell over plastic shell worth this (For me don't worth, what matter is switches/HAT quality).

This grip is not available there because is costly to produce, and is product for a niche of a niche of a niche market ("snob" players  , who enjoy WWII planes in the small world of CFS).  

 

2. Precision, small play in mechanism,  + precise contact less sensor = better control in games.

 

3 - Gunfighter PRO is Gunfighter + 20 cm curved extension, more strong springs and different CAM profile and reduced size base plate since their use require be screwed in some surface. Besides this they are the same joystick. You need joystick with extension?

 

VKB position is that Gladiator PRO don't support extension, their plastic case will deform/broken, why they developed Gunfighter, with metal case.  

So buy the right stick for your needs. Desktop version is fine?   

 

OK, seem this extension in Gunfighter PRO cost 60$.

When available standalone in Stratojet for Black Mamba cost 80$.

This "add-hoc" straight and short (5-15cm) after market extensions for Warthog cost ~40 to 80$.

So think again, you need extension?

 

Something different offered by VKB, relative to other brands:

Their bases accept (with optional adapters) grips from:

 

Cougar, Warthog, Cobra M-5.

 

 

And future grips made by VKB, like the showed KG-12B in metal or the plastic "Kosmosima" teased - a grip based in modern helicopters grips design optimized too for use for use in "Kosmo'Sim" - those Star Wars like games in vogue in recently years.

 

Think better way for analyse this more costly VKB models is compare what they are with "Next Gen" rudder pedals: MFG, Slaw (besides VKB) who cost significantly more than pedals from know brands.

 

MFG just not sell more Crosswind pedals because their production does not keep up with the demand. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

 What does metal gimbal really provide? Precision? 

 

 

About metal x plastic gimbal: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2401#p23911

[sinned]

Hi Sokol1, much appreciate your in depth explanation and insights.

 

I actually enjoy reading your posts in various topics in the past as they are resourceful.

 

I really like the kg13 inspired grip that vkb sticks offer (g, gpro, gf, gf etc). I also like to have metal grip or at least a metal trigger. I am debating if I should get plain glad and order a separate metal trigger (or order later launched full metal grip) or get gunfighter pro and then buy later launched throttle (as i need buttons).

I will soon have mfg pedals so twist grip is non issue. Gf pro may work for me but i dont know how long it will take vkb for throttle deveopment. And if I want full metal grip, I dont know if it is worth usd 300plus to buy gf pro only to replace the grip soon afterwards. This would be like paying usd 300 plus for gf pro base only + pay additional for metal grip.

 

Should I get gladiator plain with metal trigger and then throttle later (will have so many hand on buttons since glad plain already come with a throttle and buttons)?

 

I am also looking to get a hotas stand so that i can situate the stick in between my family jewels. Hence, I am also hesitant to commit to non extendable versions (gladi plain).

 

This is why I think vkb products are very interesting but line up seems all over the place.

 

What would be your recommendation?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Cute_retriever

[Matt]

UPDATE: I solved this by using the VKB device application instead of Wizzo. Seems to be a bug with Wizzo i guess.

 

Since i can't register on the VKB forums, i'll ask it here:

 

When i click on bootloader in advanced settings in the Wizzo tool, i get a "joytick not found" message and then have to reconnect the stick. Then the same thing happens again, so i can't update the firmware, which i have to update to be able to use the Warthog adapter.

 

Did anybody run into problems when updating the firmware? If so, how did you manage to fixi it?

Edited January 8, 2017 by Matt

[HunDread]

I've run through the 8 pages and still confused. Is the standard Gladiator available to purchase in Europe?

 

Also, is it better than an X 52 pro stick? I mean if we compare only stick to stick not taking the X 52 throttle into consideration.

 

Thanks

[Sokol1]

No, Gladiator standard (non PRO) is not available for Europe due market share agreements with Chinese factory.

 

Europeans have to buy the "dumb" down OEM versions, e.g. AIRROW, Javelin.

 

Or buy VKB Gladiator through Amazon.com.

[HunDread]

Thanks for the reply.

 

From Amazon.com it's at least 150$ which I'm not comfortable paying for a product offered for 80-84$ elsewhere.

 

I may look into getting one from Russia if I decide I want one. Not sure yet.

 

Do you have any insight on this stick versus the X 52 pro stick?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Thanks for the reply.

 

From Amazon.com it's at least 150$ which I'm not comfortable paying for a product offered for 80-84$ elsewhere.

 

I may look into getting one from Russia if I decide I want one. Not sure yet.

 

Do you have any insight on this stick versus the X 52 pro stick?

 

I can help with the X-52 vs Gladiator discussion and the Amazon ordering discussion.

 

First, Amazon. I ordered from Amazon.com and had it sent to Canada. It ended up costing me $170ish with taxes and exchange rate conversions. It was still worth the money in my mind to get a very good sick.

 

Second, I owned an X-52 for 9 years before the rudder axis started to spike and it was time to get a new one. I eventually took the plunge.

 

I'll try and be short but this is how I compare the two. The X-52 has more buttons and dual hat sticks. It has more metal parts and feels heavier in the hand. The Gladiator doesn't feel quite as substantial. But that's not really the end of the story. The buttons are high quality, the stick sensors and stick motion is substantially better than the X-52 and my flying has improved as a result. The return to center is very precise and its clear to me that the VKB guys actually fly the sims that we play. The grip is more comfortable and despite having fewer buttons, the Gladiator is my new favourite and I'm glad I paid a little extra to get it shipped to Canada.

 

My only complaint is the very cheap feeling plastic trigger and the fact that its not dual stage like my X-52. I've compensated for the lack of dual stage trigger and a metal trigger can be ordered for $11 USD so if those things really matter... you can overcome them.

 

Oh and you can plug the thing in and not have to mess around with Saitek/Madcatz drivers that barely work under Windows 10. This has its own 32bit ARM processor so you just plug it in and the stick handles the profiles and mode switching.

 

I hope that helps a bit. I wasn't sure either. They aren't really the same sticks... but the Gladiator is hands down a more precise and more enjoyable stick for me. I'm interested enough to potentially want to replace my X-52 HOTAS with the VKB throttle system. We'll see what that is like when it arrives.

[HunDread]

I appreciate the feedback ShamrockOneFive. Very useful.

 

My problem with the X 52 Pro stick is the friction, stutter, sticking (not smooth movement) where the metal plate collar moves on the shaft. Silicone grease has been helping but recently it doesn't do the job as I'd like. I've read two suggestions recently: chapstick or Nyogel 767A grease. Pobably I'll try these two and see if they help.

 

If this still keeps annoying me I'll try the Gladiator.

Good news is that the Ravcore Javelin OEM version is available in a local store. So I can simply try it and return it if I don't like it.