Are simulators slowly dying? Or are they about to come out swinging?

[DD_bongodriver]

The Sims don't have to change much...if at all. The way they present themselves in today's market however does.

 

 

Fascinating, do you have any suggestions?

[gavagai]

Ok, this idea will get swamped in the thread, but think of this:

 

Back in the early '90s your average desktop machine could run any flight sim out there.  People who were not into computer games could still play a flight sim without extra investment (except for a joystick).  Today, machines for sale at Best Buy or Walmart are not sufficient for the flight sims I like to play.  Most are woefully underspec, and the best ones sport "business" quality graphics cards.

 

So, the people most likely to enjoy a flight sim are not usually the ones who invest in a gaming PC, yet the graphical requirements of the genre are becoming more and more intense.

 

That said, I think the people who worry about the genre are a bunch of chicken littles.  Other people predict the death of flight sims as a rhetorical stick to bully or silence criticism...whatever.  Flight sims are here to stay, but the demand for better and better graphics has pushed away a lot of the folks who would otherwise be here with us.

[MolotoK]

Here's how you make a simulator popular:

 

It's not about the fine details only the most hardcore of simmers care about or how much you dumb it down for newcomers. It's about communicating passion.

Don't tell your potential customers how great the flight model is. Tell them why they would want to fly a LaGG-3 or Bf-109 over Stalingrad in the first place.

[DD_bongodriver]

maybe we could have a kickstarter campaign to raise enough to hire Sean Bean to narrate it too.

[Alesia]

Fascinating, do you have any suggestions?

Well, let's look at Warthunder for a second. They go to all the major conventions, have big booths or areas for people to explore their game. They have aircraft (real or fake) on display and epic trailers to show people. They show people that they are passionate about WW2 warfare, and they show their vision of what they strive to achieve with their game even if the gameplay does not match exactly. They make the atmosphere of their game feel epic and it draws people in.

 

Problem is most, if not all hardcore Sims do not do this to enough of an extent and they do not catch the serious attention of the average person.

 

Now the great thing with Sims like BOS is that you can make a trailer purporting realism and epic battles and basically deliver straight on that promise gameplay wise.

 

You have to get out there with people and show them "this is what we are passionate about, this is our vision, and this is why you need to be with us on this adventure". Sims need to change the common MS Flight sim perception along with this and prevent themselves are serious games that anyone can enjoy rather than sitting around as a niche market with little advertisement going on.

 

Warthunder did this almost too well and may be a victim of its own success but I'm not willing to count it out as it will be in.development for a very long time. That and it.will.have the first real modern tank simulation here pretty soon which should be a benefit to that sim community....then the ships will come. Warthunder is actually covering so many bases I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

 

Got off topic but I hope this makes sense....and excuse the mixed in periods my phones layout puts the period next to the space bar and its too much effort to go and remove them

 

Edit: Also fan advertisement, people streaming the game, making video tutorials and reveiws for people to watch. I know War Thunder has benefited from this greatly and with a bit of luck BOS will have its own set of streamers/content creaters that will help the community grow and succeed from the inside. I almost can't stress how important this can be to a game's overall success these days.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Brann

[DD_bongodriver]

Well, let's look at Warthunder for a second. They go to all the major conventions, have big booths or areas for people to explore their game. They have aircraft (real or fake) on display and epic trailers to show people. They show people that they are passionate about WW2 warfare, and they show their vision of what they strive to achieve with their game even if the gameplay does not match exactly. They make the atmosphere of their game feel epic and it draws people in.

 

Problem is most, if not all hardcore Sims do not do this to enough of an extent and they do not catch the serious attention of the average person.

 

Now the great thing with Sims like BOS is that you can make a trailer purporting realism and epic battles and basically deliver straight on that promise gameplay wise.

 

You have to get out there with people and show them "this is what we are passionate about, this is our vision, and this is why you need to be with us on this adventure". Sims need to change the common MS Flight sim perception along with this and prevent themselves are serious games that anyone can enjoy rather than sitting around as a niche market with little advertisement going on.

 

Warthunder did this almost too well and may be a victim of its own success but I'm not willing to count it out as it will be in.development for a very long time. That and it.will.have the first real modern tank simulation here pretty soon which should be a benefit to that sim community....then the ships will come. Warthunder is actually covering so many bases I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

 

Got off topic but I hope this makes sense....and excuse the mixed in periods my phones layout puts the period next to the space bar and its too much effort to go and remove them

 

But have you considered that War Thunder simply commands a better budged with which to promote itself? if complex sims were not a dying genre and commanded a decent income do you not think they would already be investing in better promotional material?

 

All you have said here is simply more to back up my argument that the simulator genre is being pushed aside by the arcade genre

[Alesia]

But have you considered that War Thunder simply commands a better budged with which to promote itself? if complex sims were not a dying genre and commanded a decent income do you not think they would already be investing in better promotional material?

 

All you have said here is simply more to back up my argument that the simulator genre is being pushed aside by the arcade genre

There has not been a recent sim though to my knowledge that has benefited from social media either however. I know I'll probably record gameplay and throw it up on YouTube, maybe even make guides if I get to.that point. It only takes one popular content creater to post a few videos for a game to garner many new fans and things tend to snowball from that once word gets out.

 

I say BOS will succeed based on the interest in the genre that War Thunder has created. People are activly looking at Sims right now and they just have to present themselves in the correct manner.

 

Now it's easy to point at Arcade players and say something about.that crowd but if you ask almost everyone is interested in more realistic gameplay modes or better Sims. Problem is Warthunder's full real battles are quite meh and the joysticks have long.standing problems but.the interest is there and no one has really stepped up as THE sim to play and presented themselves as such.

 

Social media is free advertisement for BOS, taking advantage of that would help immensely. Invite a popular content creater to try out the game with the devs and make a good gameplay video. People will see it and will get more interested in BOS. Streaming on twitch is a good start but get more exposure with those videos outside of your established fans that are going to watch those anyways.

 

Also get a sim with good marketing packaged with a HOTAS set on the consoles.....that's an entirely different beast that I don't reallt want to touch right now however.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Brann

[DD_bongodriver]

^{Also get a sim with good marketing packaged with a HOTAS set on the consoles.....that's an entirely different beast that I don't reallt want to touch right now however.}

 

 

This I have already suggested elsewhere, somebody then linked to a HOTAS set already available for consoles, best kept secret in the world? or is it just something that isn't popular in the console market?

 

on the subject of the best kept secrets, I really don't think this applies to flight simulators, one has only to switch off GTA and instead of browsing youtube for which celebrity has had a nip slip or panty flash maybe just type in the words 'flight simulator'

[Alesia]

This I have already suggested elsewhere, somebody then linked to a HOTAS set already available for consoles, best kept secret in the world? or is it just something that isn't popular in the console market?

 

on the subject of the best kept secrets, I really don't think this applies to flight simulators, one has only to switch off GTA and instead of browsing youtube for which celebrity has had a nip slip or panty flash maybe just type in the words 'flight simulator'

True people could look for Sims but that is the same passive attitude that Sims had in the past. You must bring.the content to the people and make them notice you.

 

On the HOTAS, it's just not common. The Ace Combat 6 (5?) collectors addition came with a really MEH HOTAS set but some of the buttons or input things don't even work at all (lol)

[DD_bongodriver]

And how is that level of promotion going to be funded?......the entire budget would be blown on promotion before anybody wrote a line of code.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I say BOS will succeed based on the interest in the genre that War Thunder has created.

Are you kidding ha ha!!

[Bearcat]

Wow... this thread has really taken some turns since I last visited it.. OK...

 

NOTE: This thread's purpose is not to troll or cause panic. It's purpose is to get legitimate opinions from the community.

It seems to me that simulators are slowly dying. I looked up 'Are Simulators Dying' and I got results for 'Are Emulators Dying'. I went looking for a replacement joystick and no shops had them. Perhaps it's just my area. Or maybe my paranoia is well-placed. Who knows?

One big cause of this drying up if interest seems to be a lack of new blood. I only know one or two people in my age group who play sims, and we're all on different continents. Which gets me thinking: why are so many older people interested in simulators? Is it because simulators were all you had back then? Was it because you were taught to care more about history? Or does interest in sims come when you're older? If so, why?

But I digress.

If anything is going to save hardcore sims, I'd have to say softcore sims. I'm not sure yet, but perhaps in time games like War Thunder and Silent Hunter Online will revive popular interest in hardcore sims. I hope that's the case. I want to see in the future hardcore flight and submarine simulators, but maybe that won't happen.

Anyway, I'm still going to support BoS. It's definitely worth it.

 

I don't think sims are dieing .. I think that in many cases the reason why many simmers are older is because interest in things like fighter planes etc are not fostered in our society. Kids now a days are more interested in music and sports than they are in thinsg like planes and ships.. I grew up making model airplanes. How may kids make model airplanes in the 10-20 age bracket today? How may of them know ir even care or could recognize a P-51, Spitfire, D-7, F-4, Tomcat or even an F-22 or a F-35? It is the subject matter.. and more younger people are interested in what GTA has to offer than most flight sims.. especially WWII ones.

 

 

 

If I'm honest with myself I can admit that flight sims themsleves are kinda boring and under produced, but my obsessive love for vintage aircraft and history keeps me interested in them. After buying GTA V, I can see why other players might not give flight sims a second glance. GTA V is a beautifully constructed game, populated(with people!), runs smooth, it's inexpensive, and there's plenty of stuff to engage in. Switch on my favorite flight sim and it's easy for me to see the disparity in terms of content, story, atmosphere, graphics, etc. I do think flight sims will always be around though because there will always be people like us willing to play them.  

 

Exactly.. although.. for me GTA does nothing.. My thing for flight sims is more fueled by my thing for flight .. which has been with me all my life.

 

 

 

I think simulators have definitely hit a wall with regards how well they make a player feel a part of the game world.  The minutiae of button clicks and bends in a hydraulic pipes modeling are well and good for the fifty or sixty most vocal fans.  However the real sense of being there, the soul of the piloting experience is becoming less and less.  Perhaps this is because the growing complexity of the sims means that they are increasingly developed by technicians, and much less by artists.

 

That is because in flight sims in particular there is only so much that you can "do" to make a player feel part of that world.. and a lot of what can be done is turn off to the quick fix easy peasy instant gratification crowd that fills the ranks the overall "gamer" world.. I disagreee with the "soul of the piloting experience" becoming less and less.. If anything it is becoming more and more realized with each new sim .. WT not withstanding.. IL2 was revolutionary in sims and when it came out it was the best overall flight sim on the market.. even if it got some things askew.. IL2 was the first sim where I saw centrifugal force modeled .. as in if the flat spin was too great you could not get out because you were pinned to the wall.. It was the first sim I saw with the smallest hit boxes of it's day. It was the first sim I saw where you could take off a planes rudder with your prop.. People can poo poo it and talk about how boring it is now if they want ...  (which it isn't.. 4.12.1 is FANTASTIC and while it may be dated it is still very enjoyable...)  but it had things that no other sim had.. and even among simmers it had a "challenge factor" that scared off a lot of folks although they would never admit it.

 

 

 

I used to love IL2 but for me it lost some of its appeal when the MODs arrived. Unless you played regularly it was easy to miss updates - I remember trying to join games via Hyperlobby and finding I now had the wrong version. For the enthusiast MODs are great, they keep the game fresh and interesting but I hope BoS doesn't go the same way.

 

See the above post.. even with the mods IL2 is a much more rewarding experience today that at any time in it's life.

 

 

 

The prop heads may eventually die off, but in the mean time their is some great software being developed by two different developers, and one mod community.  There is also some cheap hardware coming out that could bring a huge increase in the immersion level of flying.  The collision of this new software and hardware could bring on a renaissance of the genre.   The hardware alone could bring more people to flight sims, some of these people could be drawn to more complex combat flight sims.

 

I agree.. although I think that a lot of this is media driven. Where would CoD and Medal of Honor have been .. without Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers? There is a reason why both of those started in WWII .. and it had nothing to do with the historic interest in WWII. More media about 20th century aviation will spark a greater interest in it..

 

 

 

Not dying. This new generation of WWII flight simulations like BOS will come out swinging. Just wait and see when released

MAC

 

+1

 

 

 

Not so sure about this, it's a big sacrifice for the 'hard core elite' to make in accepting compromises to the fidelity of the sims we like to use, surely the new blood should cut their teeth on things like Birds of prey and war thunder or ace combat, ARMA 1,2,3,4 Battlefield 1,2,3,4...............seriously the list starts to get long in terms of console/arcade oriented flight games.....is that not enough? arcade players are spoiled for choice while us 'hard core' are starting to scratch around like hens trying to find proper sims, and now apparently we have to start making these compromises to keep noobs happy, sounds to me like none of this is going in the direction of inspiring new blood into the high fidelity sim genre, quite the opposite, the high fidelity genre is being eroded simply to give the spoiled arcade player types more choice.

 

Hard core.. what is "hard core".. and hard core elite..? Please... How about more technically aware and picky.. nothing "elite" about it at all.. that is just self aggrandizing chest thumping a lot of folks use to feel good about what they do and justify the huge amounts of $$ and time invested in doing it.. it's BS.. As long as sims are being made with the most realistic FMs.DMs,AI and graphics possible on the high end.. not even top of the line.. high end will do.. technology of the day sims will survive. By their virtue they are always going to be a niche market that will not appeal to everyone. There will be folks who will want the quickie but as long as they have somewhere to go for that higher fidelity things will survive.

 

 

Perhaps it's not so much about instant gratification, but more a question of whether there is much of any gratification to be had in flight sims of the current breed.  One can master the challenges of clickable cockpits and marvel at the way that the bend in a hydraulic pipe is modelled.  Beyond this however there is not very much reward for doing so.  Flight sims could do so much more to deliver a sense of being part of a living world and having the responsibilities and pressures of being an operational pilot.  From the thrice-removed perspective of RoF's loading screens and barren career, to the plodding lack of imagination in Cliffs of Dover's GUI, there is so much room to improve in the ways that the game can draw you in.  Nobody wants to wander into a virtual crew room and have to mouse-click on the faintly glowing Hans' chest, just to hear him moaning about his girlfriend for the umpteenth time.  Leave that RPG stuff to Silent Hunter 5. But the allocation of forces and management of resources would go a long way towards helping the player to feel more invested in the game world and enrich their experience after they hit the Fly button.

 

In singleplayer for example, you fly missions and get kills and rise up the ranks. One's comrades are virtual nonentities, kills are instantly recognized and success is meaningless in any broader sense, other than whether you get to fly at the front of a formation or the back.  Your success or failure has no other significance.

 

What about if you rise to the rank of Flight, or even Squadron Leader? Higher rank means higher responsibility. You would need to manage your pilots and personnel. Allocate your flights, request replacements, and give commendations. Maybe even issue individual orders to your pilots before the mission begins.  Young Willi Helmut just joined the unit.  Give him instructions to stay out of the fight and observe.  Kuntz has been in the thick of it and needs a rest.  Put him with Willi, or send him on leave?   You could assign your pilots objectives, waypoints, altitude and strategies.  How you use them would affect their skill, morale or effectiveness. 

 

And what if you became an ace? A real experten? You would have your pick of the ground personnel. Your aircraft would be top of the line. Your renown would ensure that new aircraft and equipment would flow in. Requests for reassignment or replacements would be looked on favorably by Command.  Experienced pilots would request transfers to your unit or you could poach them from others... 

 

Bombers have been handled very poorly in all flight sims too.  There is no feeling at all of being part of a crew.  One must act as a sort of one-man band, flying, navigating, dropping bombs and observing etc.  The dummies (if they are modeled at all) are just there for artless decoration and to maintain any sense of immersion one must not look at them too long.  We have ten years of flight sim development under our belts, and a virtual navigator will not be able to take a fix, give us a heading or tell us when we are straying off course.  Our bomb aimers won't guide us on the bomb run.  Wireless operators and flight engineers will never receive an abort or warn us when an engine is running hot.  Gunners will keep all useful information to themselves.  In ways like these the flight sim genre has not progressed an inch since Microprose were making games.

Anyway, I could go on for ever about stuff like this.  God knows I have in the past.

 

Yeah but a lot of what you posted assumes that a person is going to "rise to flight leader" or even wants to.. A flight sim's first priority should always be flight, fight  and world first .. For a flight sim to do what you suggest what it will really need would be a world out of the cockpit.. which I would like.. but even if I can steal a jeep from my crash site and fight my way back to my base.. if the flying, fighting and graphics associated with those things is shoddy.. the sim experience will be sub par. I think that the high fidelity crowd is very diverse.. some wan ttat fidelity online.. some want it offline.. some want it in campaigns .. and some just want to fly but they want to do it right.

 

 

While I wouldn't want to be playing Il-2 The Sims, Feathered_IV has valid points about the AI that we have had to fly with. It is hard to forget that you are just playing a game, when requesting assistance from your wingman and he responds 'Hang on, i'll be right there!' and then flies off in the opposite direction.

More credible AI would be a boon, but I know that it's a tall order, and I doubt that there is enough money in the flightsim genre to expect revolutionary improvements in AI behaviour.

 

4.12.1 is the best ever.. and in any mission in IL2 you need to make all of your wing men ace or veteran leaning heavily on the ace and make your enemies a mix of rookie, average and veteran. It is not the same as it was. 

 

 

 

 

Now Now....no need to get personal and involve my girlfriend is there?........what's with everyone today and their sensitivity.

I didn't say BoS or RoF were arcade, I said they were not 'hardcore'..........modelling something slightly older than the wright flyer is not going to take much complexity. Physics haven't changed since forever but aerodynamics have changed significantly.

 

Here's an idea......instead of constantly gripeing on about how complex sims should adapt to appeal to the newcomer why don't people start pressuring the creators of stuff like War Thunder to increase their options for realism?

 

But they can be hardcore.. IL2 can be hard core.. what.. now that it is over a decade old it is longer "hardcore" .. please.. You need to define hard core.. aerodynamics have not changed at all.. like physics they are still the same as they have always been. Truth be told we habve no iodea what BoS will be like until we get it.. so ...

 

Why... Here is an idea... buy and fly what you like and what appeals to you and let the developers find and fill whatever niche within the niche they choose. There is a market for WT.. and some folks who fly it will either still be flying it 3 years from now or doing something else.. but if they are still into sims and get bored with WT then hopefully they will have BoS or DCS at least to choose from.. BoS I am pretty confident about.. DCS .. who knows we will see.

[Cybermat47]

Well, let's look at Warthunder for a second. They go to all the major conventions, have big booths or areas for people to explore their game. They have aircraft (real or fake) on display and epic trailers to show people. They show people that they are passionate about WW2 warfare, and they show their vision of what they strive to achieve with their game even if the gameplay does not match exactly. They make the atmosphere of their game feel epic and it draws people in.

Problem is most, if not all hardcore Sims do not do this to enough of an extent and they do not catch the serious attention of the average person.

Now the great thing with Sims like BOS is that you can make a trailer purporting realism and epic battles and basically deliver straight on that promise gameplay wise.

You have to get out there with people and show them "this is what we are passionate about, this is our vision, and this is why you need to be with us on this adventure". Sims need to change the common MS Flight sim perception along with this and prevent themselves are serious games that anyone can enjoy rather than sitting around as a niche market with little advertisement going on.

Warthunder did this almost too well and may be a victim of its own success but I'm not willing to count it out as it will be in.development for a very long time. That and it.will.have the first real modern tank simulation here pretty soon which should be a benefit to that sim community....then the ships will come. Warthunder is actually covering so many bases I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Got off topic but I hope this makes sense....and excuse the mixed in periods my phones layout puts the period next to the space bar and its too much effort to go and remove them

Edit: Also fan advertisement, people streaming the game, making video tutorials and reveiws for people to watch. I know War Thunder has benefited from this greatly and with a bit of luck BOS will have its own set of streamers/content creaters that will help the community grow and succeed from the inside. I almost can't stress how important this can be to a game's overall success these days.

You're right. If flight or submarine sims are going to come out swinging, there needs to be an advertisement campaign. Open booths at gaming conventions where people can try out sims.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Cybermat47

[Alesia]

And how is that level of promotion going to be funded?......the entire budget would be blown on promotion before anybody wrote a line of code.

 

Start with "free" methods of advertisement.  Such as inviting a popular youtube channel to record/stream a mission while flying with the devs and talking about the game.  As you start getting more players (bigger budget) move up to website banners and the like with the occasional trailer thrown in if you have the funds.  Hold contests for people to make videos with gameplay footage and give out small prizes.  These videos will get watched and shared, especially the well done ones.  See Nassualt's Warthunder: Verge of War and Warthunder: Never Surrender videos on youtube as examples.  Not all advertisement costs money, in fact some of the best advertisment is simply talking about your product and being excited about what you have to offer.

 

 

Are you kidding ha ha!!

 

No I'm not.  War thunder has been creating big waves in the free to play catagory and is giving people a chance to play a flight sim with both beginning and more advanced game modes with support for just about any control method.  This is getting people interested in the genre and I guerentee you a great many will go on to at least try hard core flight sims and even around as fan.  Think of War Thunder as a gateway drug

 

 

You're right. If flight or submarine sims are going to come out swinging, there needs to be an advertisement campaign. Open booths at gaming conventions where people can try out sims.

 

Thank you   If only a sim company to has full simulated cockpits they can lug around and get people an amazing experiance right off the bat so they run out and get at least a budget flight stick.

[DD_bongodriver]

Bearcat, don't

 

Wow... this thread has really taken some turns since I last visited it.. OK...

 

 

 

Hard core.. what is "hard core".. and hard core elite..? Please...

 

 

Don't blame me for this expression, it's the one that gets thrown in my face here.

[Mac_Messer]

Hard core.. what is "hard core".. and hard core elite..? Please... How about more technically aware and picky.. nothing "elite" about it at all.. that is just self aggrandizing chest thumping a lot of folks use to feel good about what they do and justify the huge amounts of $$ and time invested in doing it.. it's BS.. As long as sims are being made with the most realistic FMs.DMs,AI and graphics possible on the high end.. not even top of the line.. high end will do.. technology of the day sims will survive. By their virtue they are always going to be a niche market that will not appeal to everyone. There will be folks who will want the quickie but as long as they have somewhere to go for that higher fidelity things will survive.

 

Well if you follow console market, you know that amongst its customers, Halo players for example are referred to as hardcore players. They enjoy it too. Given that is the dominating tone nowadays, I`m not hardcore at all.

 

 

No I'm not.  War thunder has been creating big waves in the free to play catagory and is giving people a chance to play a flight sim with both beginning and more advanced game modes with support for just about any control method.  This is getting people interested in the genre and I guerentee you a great many will go on to at least try hard core flight sims and even around as fan.  Think of War Thunder as a gateway drug

Many if not most WT players actually think that it is the hardcore flight sim.

[Alesia]

Well if you follow console market, you know that amongst its customers, Halo players for example are referred to as hardcore players. They enjoy it too. Given that is the dominating tone nowadays, I`m not hardcore at all.

 

 

Many if not most WT players actually think that it is the hardcore flight sim.

Probably because they haven't seen other Sims hehe. Being a full game for free to play is a huge advantage. Most people aren't confident enough around Sims to go and drops $89 on something don't know if they will enjoy or not.

[Stray]

I found the career mode pretty interesting. It was cool seeing the enemy ports become friendly bases. I usually don't get further than 1940, the modded AI is that good.

 

It's also challenging if you attack Scapa Flow in SH5 with the IRAI and OHII mods. You have to stay on the surface so the SONAR doesn't get you. The escorts have a hard time seeing a U-boat on the surface at night.

 

The Subsim.com community have almost completely fixed SH5, now even the wolfpacks work.

 

But I digress.

 

If I may add to this...

 

The main reason behind me switching from C64 to PC while completely skipping consoles on the way, were simulators and real time strategies: the type of games too complex for consoles.

With time consoles had the upper hand over PCs in terms of graphics and nothing else. Want a fast paced eye candy for a game - go for consoles. Want a complex gaming and involve thinking in it, go for PC. But all of you guys have at least one PC at home right now. And Nvidia claimed recently consoles will never have the upper hand in that department again, as they are about to unleash something  http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/09/25/nvidia-vp-not-possible-for-console-graphics-to-match-pcs/

 

I fell in love with Silent Service 2 back in the days. My first simulation ever:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26eej5ss6zg

 

Then all the other Microprose sims. Hopping from the sub to a tank, from the tank to a jet... For years.

 

But let's face it. When the graphics were not so good, it looked super-ultra-hardcore-realistic ( when I look at Silent Service 2 now, I can't believe my eyes how horrible it looks compared to graphics of today ).

Simmers, however, still look for an environment for them and graphics updated to those of today.

 

So a "simmer" will always be a simmer. The genre will not die for as long as we're not dead.

 

Looking at simulations though: while first ones were first of it's kind, they were always considered to be titles for "pro" gamers. Now a "pro gamer" is a dude who earns real cash in cyber olympics of some sort. See what I'm getting at?

 

Now the titles:  SH2, SH3+GWX Mod = great stuff. SH4 = not so great. Sh5 = what the heck, ubisoft?! SHOnline = franchise dead. Now in open beta. Tried it - bugs aside, franchise dead.

 

Tank sims? Probably only one worth the mention, T34 vs Tiger. Incredibly short campaigns, incredibly small number of keys to stroke, multiplayer dead however community released a mod you have to pay for to play it ( ?! ) and it's few times the price of the game, now few yeas old.

Oh, there are Steel Beasts PRO. I've read real panzer units train on that stuff. The game costs $125 beacuse you're getting a "dongle" without which you shall not be playing. Plus there's no single campaign and you have to arrange meeting with other tankers for a battle. It's DCS on the ground in a way.

 

Flight sims... So many to choose from. Red Baron - a milestone for many of us, Lock-On, Sturmovik, DCS... Howere as noticed by one of you in this thread, DCS is more of a procedure fight sim, not to everyone's liking.

 

And the Train sim guys. I don't get them, but surely there must be something for them in the sim as it's huge. Apparently.

 

Welcome to BoS. A game where to fly you have to purchase yourself an aircraft ( beacuse you will get a handful of underperforming ones with free release, so unless you're a freaking genius of the flight you gotta upgrade what's in your hangar to return some lead to the sender ). And that's, supposedly, due to the "market change" and the way "the world is right now". Let's face it: it worked for RoF, because RoF has no competition. But this is WW2 and competition is on the way.

 

On the other hand, a developing team will release new content if there are people willing to pay for it.

 

To sum things up: we shall see if simulation genre will survive a test of "new times" as anything you intend to play right now requires proper peripherals and those are not cheap, plus in some cases you'd have to pay fo extra stuff. Back in the days all you had to have was a PC, a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse. And a simple joystick http://www.built-to-spec.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/PC-Joystick.jpg

 

Peace, all

[6./ZG26_Emil]

You don't get any planes for free in BOS. The planes in the standard package are far from underperforming Yak 1 should be better than the La 5 and the BF-109F and G are probably better in many ways than the FW 190.

 

You get two good planes for free in ROF in particular the Spad 13 which is very good.

Edited September 27, 2013 by JG5_Emil

[Stray]

You don't get any planes for free in BOS. The planes in the standard package are far from underperforming Yak 1 should be better than the La 5 and the BF-109F and G are probably better in many ways than the FW 190.

 

You get two good planes for free in ROF in particular the Spad 13 which is very good.

 

If it's the same scheme as RoF, I'd imagine those who didn't preorder get the game for free with a couple of free aircraft in it.

 

And we don't know anything about performance of the aircraft in BoS yet. 

 

Plus if it's free aircraft, it musn't be great. Didn't like the FOV in Spad either.

[FlatSpinMan]

Stray - what the heck is wrong with a 109? Most of your post I agreed with, but there'll be no "need" to buy better planes. You can if you want to, otherwise just learn to use the tools you have.

Nonsense! The free aircraft will not be modeled worse. That's ridiculous, and I hope not intentionally provocative.

 

 

As I understand it from reading the freely available information, BoS will ship with 8-10 planes (I don't have the info right now).

[dburne]

If it's the same scheme as RoF, I'd imagine those who didn't preorder get the game for free with a couple of free aircraft in it.

 

And we don't know anything about performance of the aircraft in BoS yet. 

 

Plus if it's free aircraft, it musn't be great. Didn't like the FOV in Spad either.

 

I believe they stated early on, while they did not know exactly all the details,  it will not be the same scheme of ROF.

I have not seen any official statements on this, my gut feeling based on what I have read over the last few months, there will not be free version to start with for BOS.  We just have to wait and see how they bring this to market.

[Rjel]

 

I fell in love with Silent Service 2 back in the days. My first simulation ever:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26eej5ss6zg

 

Then all the other Microprose sims. Hopping from the sub to a tank, from the tank to a jet... For years.

 

But let's face it. When the graphics were not so good, it looked super-ultra-hardcore-realistic ( when I look at Silent Service 2 now, I can't believe my eyes how horrible it looks compared to graphics of today ).

Simmers, however, still look for an environment for them and graphics updated to those of today.

 

So a "simmer" will always be a simmer. The genre will not die for as long as we're not dead.

 

One aspect of simming that we no longer have from the late 1980s and early 90s is the newness of it all. How many of us dreamed of doing what Silent Hunter, BoB:TFH and Red Baron allowed us to do? Those games all had their failings but it was still so new we could overlook a few shortcomings. I couldn't guess hour many hundreds of hours I spent in each of them back then feeling amazed at what I was able to do. We are a much more sophisticated and demanding audience now. If a developer would combine the real life graphics we see now with a detailed simulation of whatever the subject is and add intriguing gameplay, that might recapture the awe I think we all once felt in gaming.  If we could somehow get back to that, then flight sims could regain some lost ground compared to other genre.

[Bearcat]

Bearcat, don't

 

 

Don't blame me for this expression, it's the one that gets thrown in my face here.

 

Yeah I know but still ..

Well if you follow console market, you know that amongst its customers, Halo players for example are referred to as hardcore players. They enjoy it too. Given that is the dominating tone nowadays, I`m not hardcore at all.

 

 

Many if not most WT players actually think that it is the hardcore flight sim.

 

Yeah but I think most people who are not simmers of some kind.. usually flight or racing .. define "hard core" as someone who spends a lot of time involved in their game of choice..  To them the guy who spends 6+ hours a day in Warcraft is hardcore.. the difference between sims and other games.. and flight sims in particular is that there is a level of skill acquisition that goes beyond most games.. and you also - WT mouse aim not withstanding - need more hardware ... even if for whatever reason you can't get that hardware.. if every simmer who uses just a joystick and a keyboard had their way they would have the full blown TIR/Occulus.pedals.HOTAS full powered unstaggerable rig of their dreams.. count on it.. but you don't even need all that for most other games.. and believe me ... it is easier to master the no scope over time than it is to master the high yo yo.

 

Speaking of WT... yeah .. that's because they just don't know better..

 

 

One aspect of simming that we no longer have from the late 1980s and early 90s is the newness of it all. How many of us dreamed of doing what Silent Hunter, BoB:TFH and Red Baron allowed us to do? Those games all had their failings but it was still so new we could overlook a few shortcomings. I couldn't guess hour many hundreds of hours I spent in each of them back then feeling amazed at what I was able to do. We are a much more sophisticated and demanding audience now. If a developer would combine the real life graphics we see now with a detailed simulation of whatever the subject is and add intriguing gameplay, that might recapture the awe I think we all once felt in gaming.  If we could somehow get back to that, then flight sims could regain some lost ground compared to other genre.

 

Yes.. one of the things that new simmers will never be able to fully understand is where the genre came from. It's almost like listening to Coltrane.. because so many folks grew up with Grover, Stanley, Cannonball and all the other great horn players who were big over the past 40 years the wonder of Coltrane is lost on some.. but they all had Coltrane as an influence..

 

Many simmers who come to it now do not realize that there is so much on the basic flight sim level that still has yet to be done.. and they get blown away by the same things that sucked a lot of us into the genre when the FMs and DMs and graphics were laughable by today's standards.. They are not thinking of DMs and FMs and have no clue about what the differences were between the flight and fighting characteristics of an Emil or a Kurfurst were .. and they don't care.. They just want to get in and shoot stuff up .. and shoot the other guy... it's all about the score.. When they start to look deeper... they will find BoS... DCS... even IL2.. and of course CoD .... but until then they will think they are "simming" whern in reality they are just playing a flying game because simming is also a lot about the mindset and the level of immersion that one is willing to supplement what is lacking in their given sim of choice to achieve a greater goal than just points..

[6./ZG26_Emil]

If it's the same scheme as RoF, I'd imagine those who didn't preorder get the game for free with a couple of free aircraft in it.

 

And we don't know anything about performance of the aircraft in BoS yet. 

 

Plus if it's free aircraft, it musn't be great. Didn't like the FOV in Spad either.

 

They have said several times that the business model is not the same as ROF. They also said there is no F2P version of the game like ROF.

 

We do know about the performance of those aircraft because we have data on them that can be found if you search for it, if they get that wrong there will be hell to pay.

[Picchio]

Plus if it's free aircraft, it musn't be great.

 

Bah.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Picchio

[Uufflakke]

Plus if it's free aircraft, it musn't be great.

 

                        

 

       

 

                          

[FlatSpinMan]

Bah.

I couldn't have said it better.

[DD_bongodriver]

Stephen Fry could though....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca9CJ1u6ACg

[FlatSpinMan]

Oddly enough, I was just watching that two nights ago. A casual link to a Rowan Atkinson interview led to a three hour Blackadder/Jeeves and Wooster/A bit of Fry and Laurie YouTube rampage.

 

Time well spent.

[Zmaj76]

Well..lets see...IL2 BOS will come out spring 2014 based on advanced ROF engine...old IL2 is a new game with latest HSFX7 which is out very soon.....Cliffs of Dover is new game with latest TF patches, and will be even better....DCS WW2 Europe 44 will be out next year with new edge engine and with its believable fms, realistic cem.....

 

good times ahead....the only thing is.....community isnt so cohesive as in old il2 days....we had one game and one goal then....

Edited September 28, 2013 by Tvrdi

[FlatSpinMan]

.the only thing is.....community isnt so cohesive as in old il2 days....we had one game and one goal then....

What was that? As I recall it seemed to have been to irritate the living p#% out of other forumites.

[Dakpilot]

Well at least that sport does not seem to be dying out,  LOL  

 

In fact I rather wish it would   not likely tho

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[DD_bongodriver]

You can say that again Bru....

[Bearcat]

Well..lets see...IL2 BOS will come out spring 2014 based on advanced ROF engine...old IL2 is a new game with latest HSFX7 which is out very soon.....Cliffs of Dover is new game with latest TF patches, and will be even better....DCS WW2 Europe 44 will be out next year with new edge engine and with its believable fms, realistic cem.....

 

good times ahead....the only thing is.....community isnt so cohesive as in old il2 days....we had one game and one goal then....

 

 

How can it be if it is split between 3 sims..

[VA_NAVY]

 

 

So, the people most likely to enjoy a flight sim are not usually the ones who invest in a gaming PC

 

 

 

 

Dude you are so wrong everyone I know hundreds of players have and will invest in a gaming PC.

 

 

[Blooddawn1942]

Back in the early 90's things were quiet simple. When I begun simming on my Amiga with famous "Wings", I didn' t needed to worry about complex aircraft management or FM. Just fly that damned thing and survive. I can still remember my first moment in the Camel thinking:" You never going to handle thist. How the hell I am going to keep this damn thing in the air?" Then I evolved to more complex stuff from Microprose and so the story went. I needed not an expensive rig nor input devices. And now, over 20 years later I am one of the usual matured hardcoresimmers we have so many around here. with an capable rig, expensive hotas, track ir, pedals and years ofexperience. For me the simmarket seems healthy because most eras are well covered. We have RoF and maybe in 2014 Woff. BoS emerging. CloD with TF mod and the whole DCS stuff.

But if I were maybe 15 again, I could nevef efford an capable rig nor all the input devices needed for this kind of simming we all do.

So maybe its a good thing that we have stuff like Warthunder around. Some novice may feel himself encouraged to evolve to more complex stuff as I did years ago from Wings to maybe Gunship, F117 and Dawn Patrol etc. If only 5% of the young ones who play warthunder today, are going to buy an IL2 product, that would be great.

Sorry for the grammar and typing mistakes etc. I am not an native speaker and worrying with an tiny mobilphone

[MarcoRossolini]

I'm one of those filthy teenagers spoiling the Flight Sim genre with their instant gratification nonsense. Really, I think its more a problem for PC users in general because stuff like consoles and hand held rubbish are dead simple to use and require 5 mins to get your latest piece of rubbish up and running. Meanwhile how many hours do you guys spend trying get your joystick curves set up? It seems like I've grown up in the same kind of environment you guys did, no influence of sports, lots of model planes and books on them plus exposure to flight sims at an extremely young age (2 with MS95, ah those were the days...). All people at school can talk about is GTA V and silliness like that, personally I'd much rather spend anxious hours trying to get a Ka-50 to run.

[Cybermat47]

Back in the early 90's things were quiet simple. When I begun simming on my Amiga with famous "Wings", I didn' t needed to worry about complex aircraft management or FM. Just fly that damned thing and survive. I can still remember my first moment in the Camel thinking:" You never going to handle thist. How the hell I am going to keep this damn thing in the air?" Then I evolved to more complex stuff from Microprose and so the story went. I needed not an expensive rig nor input devices. And now, over 20 years later I am one of the usual matured hardcoresimmers we have so many around here. with an capable rig, expensive hotas, track ir, pedals and years ofexperience. For me the simmarket seems healthy because most eras are well covered. We have RoF and maybe in 2014 Woff. BoS emerging. CloD with TF mod and the whole DCS stuff.

But if I were maybe 15 again, I could nevef efford an capable rig nor all the input devices needed for this kind of simming we all do.

So maybe its a good thing that we have stuff like Warthunder around. Some novice may feel himself encouraged to evolve to more complex stuff as I did years ago from Wings to maybe Gunship, F117 and Dawn Patrol etc. If only 5% of the young ones who play warthunder today, are going to buy an IL2 product, that would be great.

Sorry for the grammar and typing mistakes etc. I am not an native speaker and worrying with an tiny mobilphone

You make a very, VERY good point.

 

Although, ironically, I find flying War Thunder more difficult than a game like CloD w/ TF. Maybe it's because I'm so used to the console version...

 

And your English is perfectly fine. I didn't notice you weren't a native speaker until you said it

 

 

What was that? As I recall it seemed to have been to irritate the living p#% out of other forumites.

First you've got too little, then you've got so many that you can't decide which to play

Edited October 10, 2013 by Cybermat47

[Blooddawn1942]

Thanks for Your kind words Mat.

The situaton could really be worse. Nowadays we have even a healthy competition between the flightsim developers as we had back in the90's. In my oppinion this isn't for bad. And there is absolutely no need to bash another product. Maybe I am a little more the WWI guy, but I'm glad there is also more hifi stuff like DCS which I like also. In the end I purchase every hifi sim and can simply not understand why I should bash, lets say, over Flanders Fields whole prefer RoF. I simply have both of course! Hell,I would also buy DCS WWII

if its in the end a good product. But I am sceptic about this.

What I wanted to say: the more good hifi sims there are, the better it is. More competition. more scenarios and eras to be covered etc...

In the end: it could be worse...

I wanted to write: while I prefer RoF..sorry for mistipping on my bloody little phone