Are simulators slowly dying? Or are they about to come out swinging?

[Cybermat47]

So, Are simulators slowly dying, or will this current generation come out swinging?

 

I think that it could depend on wether or not people like the business model of paying for individual planes in flight sims. That could be off-putting to new players.

 

For submarine sims... I don't know.

[Hadwell]

no i think the way it is now is fairly good... you have the super easy end of the scale like world of warplanes, then a slightly bit harder being war thunder, then il2fb is a little harder than that, then il2rof, then there's rise of flight, il2bos now.  and the dcs series.... i think we have a lot of potential flight simmers out there even right now.... its just that it used to be split between il2fb and umm cfs2... and then i think il2fb had the monopoply for a very long time.... now u have everyone split between a dozen different sims....

[Stig]

Okay, let's try this again.

 

So, Are simulators slowly dying, or will this current generation come out swinging?

 

We were doing so well there for a while.

 

That's a hard choice. I really love flightsims, I don't know if I could give it up for swinging. I'd have to ask the wife anyhow, and i'm nor sure it would go down too well.

 

But hang on, have I by any chance misunderstood something here?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I think that it could depend on wether or not people like the business model of paying for individual planes in flight sims. That could be off-putting to new players.

 

For submarine sims... I don't know.

 

As long as it isn't pay to win it shouldn't be an issue. If you get x amount of decent aircraft with the base package then you can always be competative. I didn't like the ROF system at first but I have changed my mind, it seems to work well. Also the two aircraft that are free are pretty good. The only stuff I don't like is paying for field mods.

[DD_bongodriver]

Cool,

 

So my opinion on this is:

 

Yes the genre is dying

No, the introduction of dumbed down features will absolutely in no way come even slightly close to injecting an enthusiasm for realistic flight simulation.

 

Reasons why I say this:

1. if they had a slight interest in the first place they would already have the inclination to delve into the complexity.

2. there are tons of simplified flight games on the market that have introduced diddly squat in terms of a re energising an interest for the high fidelity sims, all that is apparent is a growing market for arcade style games.

[Mac_Messer]

 

Reasons why I say this:

1. if they had a slight interest in the first place they would already have the inclination to delve into the complexity.

2. there are tons of simplified flight games on the market that have introduced diddly squat in terms of a re energising an interest for the high fidelity sims, all that is apparent is a growing market for arcade style games.

 

IMO all is relative. You would think that IL2 players were a great bunch of pilots. Sadly, many of them couldn`t navigate if their (virtual) life depended on it. To me such a player is a n00b of the same rank as any WT pilot.

[Cybermat47]

Sadly, many of them couldn`t navigate if their (virtual) life depended on it. To me such a player is a n00b of the same rank as any WT pilot.

*Sheepishly raises hand*

[Mac_Messer]

But what about hardcore submarine simulations, hmmm?

Well, completely uninteresting singleplayer campaigns did it for me. Bought all SH up to SH5. POS it was. 

 

I`m still dreaming that one day I can meet up with say 5 buddies online and do some wolfpack attacks.

*Sheepishly raises hand*

If this occures to you only in Finland map, you are excused.

[Cybermat47]

Well, completely uninteresting singleplayer campaigns did it for me. Bought all SH up to SH5. POS it was.

 

I found the career mode pretty interesting. It was cool seeing the enemy ports become friendly bases. I usually don't get further than 1940, the modded AI is that good.

 

It's also challenging if you attack Scapa Flow in SH5 with the IRAI and OHII mods. You have to stay on the surface so the SONAR doesn't get you. The escorts have a hard time seeing a U-boat on the surface at night.

 

The Subsim.com community have almost completely fixed SH5, now even the wolfpacks work.

 

But I digress.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Cybermat47

[DD_bongodriver]

IMO all is relative. You would think that IL2 players were a great bunch of pilots. Sadly, many of them couldn`t navigate if their (virtual) life depended on it. To me such a player is a n00b of the same rank as any WT pilot.

 

The difference here is that IL2 players are at least attempting to cope with complexity, if some are simply useless then that is simply part of the human dynamic.

[Feathered_IV]

Perhaps it's not so much about instant gratification, but more a question of whether there is much of any gratification to be had in flight sims of the current breed.  One can master the challenges of clickable cockpits and marvel at the way that the bend in a hydraulic pipe is modelled.  Beyond this however there is not very much reward for doing so.  Flight sims could do so much more to deliver a sense of being part of a living world and having the responsibilities and pressures of being an operational pilot.  From the thrice-removed perspective of RoF's loading screens and barren career, to the plodding lack of imagination in Cliffs of Dover's GUI, there is so much room to improve in the ways that the game can draw you in.  Nobody wants to wander into a virtual crew room and have to mouse-click on the faintly glowing Hans' chest, just to hear him moaning about his girlfriend for the umpteenth time.  Leave that RPG stuff to Silent Hunter 5. But the allocation of forces and management of resources would go a long way towards helping the player to feel more invested in the game world and enrich their experience after they hit the Fly button.

 

In singleplayer for example, you fly missions and get kills and rise up the ranks. One's comrades are virtual nonentities, kills are instantly recognized and success is meaningless in any broader sense, other than whether you get to fly at the front of a formation or the back.  Your success or failure has no other significance.

 

What about if you rise to the rank of Flight, or even Squadron Leader? Higher rank means higher responsibility. You would need to manage your pilots and personnel. Allocate your flights, request replacements, and give commendations. Maybe even issue individual orders to your pilots before the mission begins.  Young Willi Helmut just joined the unit.  Give him instructions to stay out of the fight and observe.  Kuntz has been in the thick of it and needs a rest.  Put him with Willi, or send him on leave?   You could assign your pilots objectives, waypoints, altitude and strategies.  How you use them would affect their skill, morale or effectiveness. 

 

And what if you became an ace? A real experten? You would have your pick of the ground personnel. Your aircraft would be top of the line. Your renown would ensure that new aircraft and equipment would flow in. Requests for reassignment or replacements would be looked on favorably by Command.  Experienced pilots would request transfers to your unit or you could poach them from others... 

 

Bombers have been handled very poorly in all flight sims too.  There is no feeling at all of being part of a crew.  One must act as a sort of one-man band, flying, navigating, dropping bombs and observing etc.  The dummies (if they are modeled at all) are just there for artless decoration and to maintain any sense of immersion one must not look at them too long.  We have ten years of flight sim development under our belts, and a virtual navigator will not be able to take a fix, give us a heading or tell us when we are straying off course.  Our bomb aimers won't guide us on the bomb run.  Wireless operators and flight engineers will never receive an abort or warn us when an engine is running hot.  Gunners will keep all useful information to themselves.  In ways like these the flight sim genre has not progressed an inch since Microprose were making games.

 

Anyway, I could go on for ever about stuff like this.  God knows I have in the past.
 

 

[Dakpilot]

If hardcore sims are dying...then what are BOS, ROF and DCS WWII, countless WWII addons to FSX and TF CloD, more hardcore than anything in the past, I think they are coming out swinging, notwithstanding the CloD debacle which simply could not succeed following the premature launch and patch fiasco,

Just when were things better off than they are now

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[DD_bongodriver]

@ Feathered, Didn't really work for rowans BoB or it's reincarnation though, if any of that stuff becomes obligatory then how in the hell is someone supposed to get enthused about getting into the action?

Edited September 26, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Cybermat47]

  Leave that RPG stuff to Silent Hunter 5.

 

Remind me to mod that crap out of the game.

[Feathered_IV]

I didn't think that Rowan handled it very well.  Fortunately it was optional.  I guess the major issue from my perspective is that contemporary flight sims are a paradox.  High technical complexity, combined with very shallow gameplay.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I just skip through all the career stuff in sims...that's if I bother trying them at all. I managed 3 or 4 missions in career mode in ROF 10 years before than I think I managed 8 missions in a career in IL2. I don't think anything would change that for me. Not to say I don't fly offline, I do but generally in Quick Missions against multiple enemies to practice ACM.

[Cybermat47]

I do but generally in Quick Missions against multiple enemies to practice ACM.

What's ACM?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Air Combat Maneuvers.

 

I was always an online flyer when I played IL2 religiously almost every night, it got to feeling like a second job

[Cybermat47]

Air Combat Maneuvers.

 

Ah.

 

Now you see, I just try to shoot the other guy. It's why I keep getting shot down.

[DD_bongodriver]

If hardcore sims are dying...then what are BOS, ROF and DCS WWII, countless WWII addons to FSX and TF CloD, more hardcore than anything in the past, I think they are coming out swinging, notwithstanding the CloD debacle which simply could not succeed following the premature launch and patch fiasco,

Just when were things better off than they are now

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

I get the feeling you are relatively new to flight sims, there was a time when we were almost spoiled for choice, I know I never managed to buy every sim available.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Cybermat

 

Have a read of this :D

 

http://www.jg-51.com/topsecret/Fighter_Combat-Tactics_and_Maneuvering.pdf

[Feathered_IV]

I just skip through all the career stuff in sims...that's if I bother trying them at all. I managed 3 or 4 missions in career mode in ROF 10 years before than I think I managed 8 missions in a career in IL2. I don't think anything would change that for me. Not to say I don't fly offline, I do but generally in Quick Missions against multiple enemies to practice ACM.

I was speaking of the single player experience. I suspect the needs of the online players are somewhat different and they would be more concerned with refinements of existing features rather than new ones.

[Mac_Messer]

Anyway, I could go on for ever about stuff like this.  God knows I have in the past.

 

 

Sure, just give them more money. All you wrote is doable with say a 50mil $ budget.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I was speaking of the single player experience. I suspect the needs of the online players are somewhat different and they would be more concerned with refinements of existing features rather than new ones.

 

Yeh I know and I totally get the fact that the offliners must feel like they've been left with the dregs over the years. Crappy AI, lack of Dynamic campaigns etc.

[Dakpilot]

I get the feeling you are relatively new to flight sims, there was a time when we were almost spoiled for choice, I know I never managed to buy every sim available.

I get the feeling you did not understand my point...

 

The current generation as I quoted, DCS, BOS, CLoD etc. are more "hardcore"  high fidelity than anything that has come before.

 

The game has changed, things have changed, it is no longer possible for any old developer to trot out a "quality" product as was when people were "spoiled for choice"

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[DD_bongodriver]

I get the feeling you did not understand my point...

 

The current generation as I quoted, DCS, BOS, CLoD etc. are more "hardcore"  high fidelity than anything that has come before.

 

The game has changed, things have changed, it is no longer possible for any old developer to trot out a "quality" product as was when people were "spoiled for choice"

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

No I understood just fine, in your list only DCS qualifies as true high fidelity, CLoD is not supported by its owners any more and really backs up the idea of a dying genre, it is no secret that BOS has endeavoured to simplify things, BoS is going to Be IL2 with a dx9 engine and by no means 'hardcore', they have been explicit in explaining this because they want to appeal to a wider market, this is fine but it does not qualify for 'hardcore'

 

Oh and ROF is WWI........not exactly a complex era.

Edited September 26, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Stig]

While I wouldn't want to be playing Il-2 The Sims, Feathered_IV has valid points about the AI that we have had to fly with. It is hard to forget that you are just playing a game, when requesting assistance from your wingman and he responds 'Hang on, i'll be right there!' and then flies off in the opposite direction.

 

More credible AI would be a boon, but I know that it's a tall order, and I doubt that there is enough money in the flightsim genre to expect revolutionary improvements in AI behaviour. 

[Dakpilot]

Good grief, 

 

No I understood just fine, in your list only DCS qualifies as true high fidelity, CLoD is not supported by its owners any more and really backs up the idea of a dying genre, it is no secret that BOS has endeavoured to simplify things, BoS is going to Be IL2 with a dx9 engine and by no means 'hardcore', they have been explicit in explaining this because they want to appeal to a wider market, this is fine but it does not qualify for 'hardcore'

 

Oh and ROF is WWI........not exactly a complex era.

 

Good grief, Fine, if you think BOS and ROF are arcade then you obviously live in another planet, I dont think aerodynamics have changed too much since WW I

 

perhaps you should go back to your "hi fidelity" girlfriend and argue there, agendas...lol, It seems all you want to do is argue in every thread its getting very boring

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[DD_bongodriver]

Good grief, 

 

 

Good grief, Fine, if you think BOS and ROF are arcade then you obviously live in another planet, I dont think aerodynamics have changed too much since WW I

 

perhaps you should go back to your "hi fidelity" girlfriend and argue there, agendas...lol, It seems all you want to do is argue in every thread its getting very boring

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

Now Now....no need to get personal and involve my girlfriend is there?........what's with everyone today and their sensitivity.

 

I didn't say BoS or RoF were arcade, I said they were not 'hardcore'..........modelling something slightly older than the wright flyer is not going to take much complexity.

 

Physics haven't changed since forever but aerodynamics have changed significantly.

Edited September 26, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Dakpilot]

Nothing personal....if you cannot get the relevance of high fidelity girlfriend....."only DCS qualifies as true high fidelity" or see your own "agenda" LOL it must be your favorite word, then either I have underestimated your intelligence or you are being purposefully dense to continue a non existent argument. I dont think flight dynamics have changed much since the Wright flyer either

 

I give up feeding the trolls

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[ST_ami7b5]

@Bongo

In your (and my) 'hardcore' DCS you can FLY THROUGH TREES - which is not possible even in WorldThunder!!!

[DD_bongodriver]

Nothing personal....if you cannot get the relevance of high fidelity girlfriend....."only DCS qualifies as true high fidelity" or see your own "agenda" LOL it must be your favorite word, then either I have underestimated your intelligence or you are being purposefully dense to continue a non existent argument. I dont think flight dynamics have changed much since the Wright flyer either

 

I give up feeding the trolls

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

Ok so I guess this is staying at the personal level, I won't stoop so low but I will continue with my reasoned debate.

 

No I don't get the relevance of 'high fidelity girlfriend' when discussing flight sims, I do however qualify 'high fidelity' as complexity to the level of full systems modelling and clickable cockpits with undeniably superior flight dynamics modelling.

 

if there is a phrase that would please you more that describes the vast chasm of difference in complexity between the discussed titles then please feel free to mention it, until such time I think 'high fidelity' will suffice as a widely used standard.

 

don't starve yourself now.

@Bongo

In your (and my) 'hardcore' DCS you can FLY THROUGH TREES - which is not possible even in WorldThunder!!!

 personally I like to avoid hitting trees while flying both in real life and in simulation though I admit I have clipped one in real life, not sure how the lack of collision with a tree is a sign of lack of complexity with regards to accurate flight dynamics and systems modelling.

Edited September 26, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[ST_ami7b5]

...

 personally I like to avoid hitting trees while flying both in real life and in simulation though I admit I have clipped one in real life, not sure how the lack of collision with a tree is a sign of lack of complexity with regards to accurate flight dynamics and systems modelling.

 

Everybody tries  to avoid them, but one not always succeeds...

And it also affects ground units!

They can see you/shoot at you/move through trees as if they were on a plain terrain.

 

What is all that super hifi modelling for, if in game (pardon me, 'hardcore simulator') you have such unacceptable flaws?

Edited September 26, 2013 by ami7b5

[DD_bongodriver]

Everybody tries  to avoid them, but one not always succeeds...

And it also affect ground units!

They can see you/shoot at you/move as if they were on a plain terrain.

 

What is all that super hifi modeling for, if in game you have such unacceptable flaws?

 

nobody forces you to play anything if you don't like it, if you think War Thunder is a superior simulator because you can hit a tree then I am not trying to stop you playing it.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Well mate you clearly woak up in some kind of rage and have been at everyone's throats all day. Have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.

[ST_ami7b5]

nobody forces you to play anything if you don't like it, if you think War Thunder is a superior simulator because you can hit a tree then I am not trying to stop you playing it.

 

LOL.

 

Forget WT, remember RoF and BoS.

 

My shiny DCS Mustang:

 

which I love flying, but not close to the ground 

Edited September 26, 2013 by ami7b5

[DD_bongodriver]

@Emil, Hey I'm not the one liberally throwing around personal insults.

LOL.

 

Forget WT, remember RoF and BoS.

 

My shiny DCS Mustang:

 

which I love 

 

 Absolutely, and if people would let go of bizarre agendas and support this industry more we will have a DCS P-47, Spit Mk9, etc etc

Edited September 26, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Alesia]

I think that it could depend on wether or not people like the business model of paying for individual planes in flight sims. That could be off-putting to new players.

 

For submarine sims... I don't know.

Actually most people should be acclimated to the micro-transaction model by now....as far as new simmers is concerned. The problem is keeping a reasonable price with how complex flight Sims can be.

 

However, if you make the game engaging and make the world feel large and exciting (while being large and exciting) and have rich, rewarding gameplay you can ask much higher prices as people will see the value in what you are offering.

 

 

As was mentioned above Sims are a weird mix if complexity and dry gameplay. Complexity is desired but dry gameplay is off putting to most.

 

Having an epic marketing campaign could go a long ways however pulling that off while reminding people that it is a hardcore sim could be somewhat tough to present correctly.

[DD_bongodriver]

Here's an idea......instead of constantly gripeing on about how complex sims should adapt to appeal to the newcomer why don't people start pressuring the creators of stuff like War Thunder to increase their options for realism?

[Alesia]

Here's an idea......instead of constantly gripeing on about how complex sims should adapt to appeal to the newcomer why don't people start pressuring the creators of stuff like War Thunder to increase their options for realism?

The Sims don't have to change much...if at all. The way they present themselves in today's market however does.

 

Also everyone open the storm window and cool off, everyone wants the best here. aid ideas contrary to what people "want" are being discussed then put in constructive input instead of being disruptive. The fact that people are discussing these things means they are approaching the problem from different angles and the final solution will only be better for that.