Are simulators slowly dying? Or are they about to come out swinging?

[Cybermat47]

NOTE: This thread's purpose is not to troll or cause panic. It's purpose is to get legitimate opinions from the community.

 

It seems to me that simulators are slowly dying. I looked up 'Are Simulators Dying' and I got results for 'Are Emulators Dying'. I went looking for a replacement joystick and no shops had them. Perhaps it's just my area. Or maybe my paranoia is well-placed. Who knows?

 

One big cause of this drying up if interest seems to be a lack of new blood. I only know one or two people in my age group who play sims, and we're all on different continents. Which gets me thinking: why are so many older people interested in simulators? Is it because simulators were all you had back then? Was it because you were taught to care more about history? Or does interest in sims come when you're older? If so, why?

 

But I digress.

 

If anything is going to save hardcore sims, I'd have to say softcore sims. I'm not sure yet, but perhaps in time games like War Thunder and Silent Hunter Online will revive popular interest in hardcore sims. I hope that's the case. I want to see in the future hardcore flight and submarine simulators, but maybe that won't happen.

 

Anyway, I'm still going to support BoS. It's definitely worth it.

[SOLIDKREATE]

They may be slowly dying and I feel it is because of the "Give it to me now" generation. No one wants to 'work' for their accomplishments anymore. We have this new culture of 'buck passing' and 'everyone is a winner'. It's more a generational gap between us and the 'new blood' as you put it. We live in the instant gratification age where they have games like Call of Duty and War Thunder. Don't get me wrong they are fun to play for a quick fix to blow off steam.

 

I myself need a little more. I routinely play DCS: P-51D on the weekend because that is when I have the most time to do so. That sim has a very steep learning curve but the reward of accomplishment you get when you accomplish something is just second to none. I remember when I first cranked over the big V-12 and heard it roar and snarl like a blood thirsty lion savoring the sweet taste of a gazelle. I cannot wait until the alpha starts. Maybe we can all be the ones to give our genera some much needed CPR. I can't wait to fly with my squadmates in JG54.

[FlatSpinMan]

I dunno. I hope not. As for why they are less popular now, it 'may' because of the more instant-gratification mindset of younger people, but then older people have probably been saying that for ever and ever.

For myself, I have been into planes since I was a kid - getting anything WW2-plane related out of the library and poring over technical specs and cutaway diagrams. On TV there were slim pickings in terms of aviation, thought I do remember seeing bits of "Wings" (a WWI RFC drama). As I got older (like 9 or 10), I started making scale models, and reading those magazines religously at the library. I also used to regularly read comics like "Commando" and "Battle!", which dealt with world war two stories. This all meant I knew a reasonable amount about them, and was dying to get a chance to do it for real-ish. That said, I didn't play a flight sim until I was 20-something years old! Even if we'd had a computer, I doubt I would have played flight sims much as they weren't really that popular, and I was thinking about other teenage stuff. It really wasn't until I was in my early/mid 20's that I had time, the wherewithal, and the rekindled interest to actually start playing.

Perhaps it's just a thing that you grow back into?

[dburne]

Well I personally think, our whole way of computing is dying - slowly, as it evidenced by all the " enthusiast" boards that are still being offered, so there must still be a decent market with us home builders. And of course there is still plenty of peripherals being offered, TM developing the Warthog, the CH and Saitek offerings, gaming keyboards and mice, etc.

 

The trend as I see it currently, is toward more " instant" gratification, Notepads rather than PC's - very quick and easy to use - Smartphones, etc. Even MS is focusing more of their efforts in that arena now, and less on the PC business - at least for home users, they still are very strong in networking.

I do believe someday, PC's as we know them now, will no longer be around but old machines to remind us of how we " used" to do things computer wise. Whether that is in my lifetime or not I don't know, doubt it will completely happen in my lifetime, but the younger generation it certainly might. And maybe by that time, they will have things like these flight sims and periphs offered for them as well.

 

My hat is off, to  the companies that continue to cater to us and for them developing new flight sim products for what is obviously a shrinking crowd. Namely 777/1C, DCS, and of course the tremendous efforts made by TF for Cliffs, just for us. 

 

I hope that it in someway this all might help a resurgence n the hobby, time will tell. I am very hopeful that BOS when be a huge success after retail launch, and RPG and DCS have a big success with their planned WWII product.

[steppenwolf]

If I'm honest with myself I can admit that flight sims themsleves are kinda boring and under produced, but my obsessive love for vintage aircraft and history keeps me interested in them. After buying GTA V, I can see why other players might not give flight sims a second glance. GTA V is a beautifully constructed game, populated(with people!), runs smooth, it's inexpensive, and there's plenty of stuff to engage in. Switch on my favorite flight sim and it's easy for me to see the disparity in terms of content, story, atmosphere, graphics, etc. I do think flight sims will always be around though because there will always be people like us willing to play them.    

[FlatSpinMan]

Good points, Steppenwolf. The sim worlds need to be so big, and to represent different phases of battle, that it isn't really feasible to populate the world as it would be in something like GTA.

[Mac_Messer]

After buying GTA V, I can see why other players might not give flight sims a second glance. GTA V is a beautifully constructed game, populated(with people!), runs smooth, it's inexpensive, and there's plenty of stuff to engage in.

Funny thing is I never got into GTA series. Tried all of them except the fifth, boring as hell.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

We have more sims than ever now. There's 80 odd people on IL2 right now, by the Euro evening time that will be many more. On top of that there will be 50 people playing CLOD online, 50-90 on ROF and then there's all the other sims plus the offliners who are many. Infact sim-lites like Warthunder are apparently very popular so there is the desire to 'sim' but now people can do it without the expensive gear etc.

 

The thing people are missing are the high numbers on a single game like back in the days of IL2 but then what have later Sim devs learned from those successes? In my opinion if it hadn't been for Hyperlobby I don't think it would have been anywhere near as successful online. Years later and CLOD came out without proper coops, no lobby or chat function so you could find opponents and no thought to what made Il2 so successful which were the online wars.

 

Look at DCS, ARMA 3, ROF and CLOD they all have that omission in common, and the game play (can't really speak for DCS) is all very similar in that there is the ground/air quake servers and then you have the pseudo co-ops of ATAG/Syndicate and ARMA 3 which seem to me to be more of a dogfight server with goals (no offense to the people behind those servers). I really think the devs of modern sims are missing what would make their sims be as amazing as IL2 was back in the beginning.

[Feathered_IV]

I think simulators have definitely hit a wall with regards how well they make a player feel a part of the game world.  The minutiae of button clicks and bends in a hydraulic pipes modeling are well and good for the fifty or sixty most vocal fans.  However the real sense of being there, the soul of the piloting experience is becoming less and less.  Perhaps this is because the growing complexity of the sims means that they are increasingly developed by technicians, and much less by artists. 

Edited September 25, 2013 by Feathered_IV

[theOden]

I think steppenwolf is onto a growing issue.

As simgames grow way more complex some tend do become more sterile.

I spent some weeks learning the way of the wonderful DCS: A-10C and while it is a nearby perfect creation I can only see myself returning to Falcon4 and IL2-46 now a few steps later.

What I think is important for future productions is gameplay. With Falcon4 I get a never ending surprise when out flying it's campaign and with -46 I get served a vast selection of missions (I'm still new to prop-sims).

 

Trying DCS: P-51D - also a almost perfect creation - it tends to result in procedures and less "combat experience" (but I keep on trying ).

 

Besides flying I've been writing hundreds of missions for ArmA, one more random than the other, and I think this vast content you get from community - or build yourself in my case - is what today's complex simgames need. Without it, it will die sooner or later.

 

I very good editor (preferably ArmA style using an equivalent of sqf scripts) or a dynamic environment is what's needed to keep serving players.

 

(and no, I don't expect a dynamic environment as Falcon4 in any sim soon - but it would be a god's gift).

[Picchio]

I think simulators have definitely hit a wall with regards how well they make a player feel a part of the game world.  The minutiae of button clicks and bends in a hydraulic pipes modeling are well and good for the fifty or sixty most vocal fans.  However the real sense of being there, the soul of the piloting experience is becoming less and less.  Perhaps this is because the growing complexity of the sims means that they are increasingly developed by technicians, and much less by artists. 

 

Well put, Kamerad. Very well put.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Picchio

[Tektolnes]

I think that the extra realism that fans are calling for is also impacting. Personally I love the realism of DCS P51 but there's no denying that it's a far more challenging combat experience than the likes of IL-2 1946 and it's going to put people off who are interested but don't want to put in all that time and effort. The older sim games were just more forgiving in general and easier to pick up. 

 

Reminds me of the old Championship Manager games I used to play. Back in 99/00, 00/01 series it was all pretty straightforward - you bought your players, picked your formation and had at it. You can run through a whole season in a day or so. Then somewhere along the line they changed and suddenly it became like a job - you really had to analyze players, work on the formations, handle contract negotiations, handle the board interaction & the media, analyze the matches, etc. I just didn't have the interest anymore.

 

I'd agree with Feathered that we've probably hit the wall in terms of balancing realism with what people actually want. The only problem with adding in all the extra nice surround bits is getting the money to do it given that the hardcore flight sim business isn't the most lucrative one to be in. Think it'd be a good idea for devs to open up the code in some way that would allow modders to hook into the game with stuff they create. 

[Feathered_IV]

Glad you guys agree. It's interesting that much of the twenty million or so that Star Citizen has garnered is for features that occur before pushing the refly button.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Well people moaned for years about IL2 being bland and lifeless as well so that doesn't add up entirely.

[DD_bongodriver]

We need someone to develop a high fidelity simulator for consoles complimented with a HOTAS system as a peripheral...........maybe?

[Fodder]

I used to love IL2 but for me it lost some of its appeal when the MODs arrived. Unless you played regularly it was easy to miss updates - I remember trying to join games via Hyperlobby and finding I now had the wrong version. For the enthusiast MODs are great, they keep the game fresh and interesting but I hope BoS doesn't go the same way.

[steppenwolf]

Glad you guys agree. It's interesting that much of the twenty million or so that Star Citizen has garnered is for features that occur before pushing the refly button.

I think you're on to something...it would be nice if the flying was but a portion of the game. 

[JG27_Chivas]

The prop heads may eventually die off, but in the mean time their is some great software being developed by two different developers, and one mod community.  There is also some cheap hardware coming out that could bring a huge increase in the immersion level of flying.  The collision of this new software and hardware could bring on a renaissance of the genre.   The hardware alone could bring more people to flight sims, some of these people could be drawn to more complex combat flight sims. 

[Alesia]

Part of the problem could be the instant gratification syndrome but I think it comes down to more mundane things overall.

 

Marketing is a big problem with Sims in general. For example I only heard about IL2:BOS though the Warthunder forums. There are almost never any substantial marketing campains for hard core Sims. People simply do not know these Sims exist to start with.

 

Another is that people see hard core Sims as highly complex with a steep learning curve. If a sim developed very well done tutorials for each aircraft that people could complete in a timely manner, be some what entertaining, and pass the basics of that aircraft along than that sim would probably find a larger perminant audience.

 

Making Sims accessible and relatable to new comers would go along way. Along with not requiring people to have $100+ joysticks and allowing people to use a control method that almost anyone has (something Warthunder is doing almost too well).

 

I dont really buy into the Instant gratification thing when you have games like Dayz that are highly popular but also rather realistic, brutally hard, and take up a lot of time. People are starved for a good challenge but the developers of these games tend to not advertise and don't tend to make Sims new player friendly so they don't find am audience.

 

Beware however, a growing community will quickly loose it's friendly atmosphere in this day and age.

[Mogster]

If I'm honest with myself I can admit that flight sims themsleves are kinda boring and under produced, but my obsessive love for vintage aircraft and history keeps me interested in them. After buying GTA V, I can see why other players might not give flight sims a second glance. GTA V is a beautifully constructed game, populated(with people!), runs smooth, it's inexpensive, and there's plenty of stuff to engage in. Switch on my favorite flight sim and it's easy for me to see the disparity in terms of content, story, atmosphere, graphics, etc. I do think flight sims will always be around though because there will always be people like us willing to play them.    

 

I do agree to a point. Graphically flight sims have the huge problem that they need to look good at ground level and from thousands of feet in the air. The high bit is quite easy, the low bit is much more difficult as it involves hand placing objects over a huge area. There's no way round this unless you use some sort of tech similar to the 3D generation in Google or Apple maps. 

 

IL2 was great on a lot of levels but immersion wasn't one of them. I flew it for years and enjoyed it hugely but never really felt I was part of a war or even a squadron. As a technical simulation it led the way, but with its lack of gamey or story elements and far from lively looking maps single player always felt sterile. Hopefully one day we can have a highly technically competent sim with gameplay elements, huge online capacity, detailed dynamic maps and realistic weather effects.  

[steppenwolf]

I do agree to a point. Graphically flight sims have the huge problem that they need to look good at ground level and from thousands of feet in the air. The high bit is quite easy, the low bit is much more difficult as it involves hand placing objects over a huge area. There's no way round this unless you use some sort of tech similar to the 3D generation in Google or Apple maps. 

 

IL2 was great on a lot of levels but immersion wasn't one of them. I flew it for years and enjoyed it hugely but never really felt I was part of a war or even a squadron. As a technical simulation it led the way, but with its lack of gamey or story elements and far from lively looking maps single player always felt sterile. Hopefully one day we can have a highly technically competent sim with gameplay elements, huge online capacity, detailed dynamic maps and realistic weather effects.  

Totally. That is the dream. 

[Pizzicato]

One of the biggest issues is the wall that we've built up between ourselves and new blood.

 

The majority of us grew up with much simpler sims that were comparatively easy to learn. The rapid evolution of computing power meant that each new sim could add just a little bit more fidelity to the mix. For us guys, each incremental additional to the experience was a comparatively small step. What we didn't realize, however, was that we were inadvertently making each new generation of sim more and more impenetrable to people with zero experience.

 

We've made this significantly more problematic by the persistent elitism that a vocal section of the community repeatedly exhibits. Anyone that's foolish enough to come to the forum with questions about "arcade mode" or "mouse control" are quickly and aggressively chased away by the Hardcore Elite.

 

As a community, we need to be embracing people that want to join in the fun - albeit at a reduced level of fidelity. This doesn't mean that the core experience should be dumbed down - just that we should be happy to support additional game modes and input models that satisfy a wider audience AND that we should welcome that audience into the fold as opposed to chasing them away.

[Mogster]

I started out with FS98, flying the 172 with just a terrible supermarket joystick and rudder autocoordination turned on, then I moved to Total Air War, I liked that one as I didn't feel the need to use the rudder...ever. Every sim should have an autorudder option so punters can get airborne without pedals or a twist stick.

 

I'm not into full arcade mode, ease people in with options like autorudder and auto CEM and with a reasonably easy to fly aircraft someone who's interested enough to spend an hour or so with the sim should be able to have fun.

[Sokol1]

We need someone to develop a high fidelity simulator for consoles complimented with a HOTAS system as a peripheral...........maybe?

 

Console HOTAS exist:

 

 

Sokol1

[MACADEMIC]

Not dying. This new generation of WWII flight simulations like BOS will come out swinging. Just wait and see when released

 

MAC

[DD_bongodriver]

One of the biggest issues is the wall that we've built up between ourselves and new blood.

 

The majority of us grew up with much simpler sims that were comparatively easy to learn. The rapid evolution of computing power meant that each new sim could add just a little bit more fidelity to the mix. For us guys, each incremental additional to the experience was a comparatively small step. What we didn't realize, however, was that we were inadvertently making each new generation of sim more and more impenetrable to people with zero experience.

 

We've made this significantly more problematic by the persistent elitism that a vocal section of the community repeatedly exhibits. Anyone that's foolish enough to come to the forum with questions about "arcade mode" or "mouse control" are quickly and aggressively chased away by the Hardcore Elite.

 

As a community, we need to be embracing people that want to join in the fun - albeit at a reduced level of fidelity. This doesn't mean that the core experience should be dumbed down - just that we should be happy to support additional game modes and input models that satisfy a wider audience AND that we should welcome that audience into the fold as opposed to chasing them away.

 

 

Not so sure about this, it's a big sacrifice for the 'hard core elite' to make in accepting compromises to the fidelity of the sims we like to use, surely the new blood should cut their teeth on things like Birds of prey and war thunder or ace combat, ARMA 1,2,3,4 Battlefield 1,2,3,4...............seriously the list starts to get long in terms of console/arcade oriented flight games.....is that not enough? arcade players are spoiled for choice while us 'hard core' are starting to scratch around like hens trying to find proper sims, and now apparently we have to start making these compromises to keep noobs happy, sounds to me like none of this is going in the direction of inspiring new blood into the high fidelity sim genre, quite the opposite, the high fidelity genre is being eroded simply to give the spoiled arcade player types more choice.

[Alesia]

Not so sure about this, it's a big sacrifice for the 'hard core elite' to make in accepting compromises to the fidelity of the sims we like to use, surely the new blood should cut their teeth on things like Birds of prey and war thunder or ace combat, ARMA 1,2,3,4 Battlefield 1,2,3,4...............seriously the list starts to get long in terms of console/arcade oriented flight games.....is that not enough? arcade players are spoiled for choice while us 'hard core' are starting to scratch around like hens trying to find proper sims, and now apparently we have to start making these compromises to keep noobs happy, sounds to me like none of this is going in the direction of inspiring new blood into the high fidelity sim genre, quite the opposite, the high fidelity genre is being eroded simply to give the spoiled arcade player types more choice.

This kind of attitude is only going to block out new simmers. Including less "hardcore" game modes and settings is importent for new blood to cut their teeth on as they adapt. Hard core simmers dont have to make any comprimises for this to happen.

[DD_bongodriver]

This kind of attitude is only going to block out new simmers. Including less "hardcore" game modes and settings is importent for new blood to cut their teeth on as they adapt. Hard core simmers dont have to make any comprimises for this to happen.

 

But every time a sim has to include features to make life easy for a new blood it eats into a development budget that is likely to be at the cost of some other high fidelity feature....that is a compromise, and what about the rest of my point? why exactly are the many many arcade flight titles available not enough to inspire new players should they seek higher fidelity? War thunder and Birds of prey should be good enough for exactly that purpose.

Edited September 25, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Rjel]

@Pizzicato - great post.

 

This thread sounds like a bunch of old men complaining about them damn whipper snappers. Why that's not how we used to do it....

It's been more than a generation since we all started flying sims. I'm afraid times change. The gaming world has migrated to a newer audience that didn't grow up dreaming of WWII air combat. While we all might want ultra realistic flight sims, it appears we are sadly in the very small minority of gamers.

[Alesia]

But every time a sim has to include features to make life easy for a new blood it eats into a development budget that is likely to be at the cost of some other high fidelity feature....that is a compromise, and what about the rest of my point? why exactly are the many many arcade flight titles available not enough to inspire new players should they seek higher fidelity? War thunder and Birds of prey should be good enough for exactly that purpose.

Adding features does not mean that there are comprimises being made with the way games are being developed these days IE: continuous deveopment with steady income from purchses post release. War Thunder‘s joystick controls are not very good and have artificial wobble added for whatever reason to boot and its the biggest kid on the block right now. It is not that hard to develop those kind of features to start with and it mostly amounts to small QOL features to help people on their way.

[DD_bongodriver]

There you have it folks, Rjel has basically confirmed our worst fears, time for us dinosaurs to hang up the old joysticks and start pottering around the garden.

[Rjel]

There you have it folks, Rjel has basically confirmed our worst fears, time for us dinosaurs to hang up the old joysticks and start pottering around the garden.

Always here to help. It would be interesting to get an average age on this forum though. I'd bet it is at least 10 to 15 years older than what would be found on War Thunder for instance.

[DD_bongodriver]

Adding features does not mean that there are comprimises being made with the way games are being developed these days IE: continuous deveopment with steady income from purchses post release. War Thunder‘s joystick controls are not very good and have artificial wobble added for whatever reason to boot and its the biggest kid on the block right now. It is not that hard to develop those kind of features to start with and it mostly amounts to small QOL features to help people on their way.

if the income is coming from arcade players then what incentive is there to work on adding fidelity? very naïve thinking.

 

what I am saying is that the very few....(like count on one hand)..... titles that claim to be actual simulators and are in development or still supported should perhaps be preserved as high fidelity because there is enough arcade crap available and if you really think that making mollycoddling features is going to inspire enough of todays generation into becoming high fidelity enthusiasts then you are dreaming, where exactly is the logic behind having stuff like mouse aim to inspire somebody to want to then do it the hard way? it certainly isn't going to actually teach them to do it the hard way.

[Cybermat47]

Not dying. This new generation of WWII flight simulations like BOS will come out swinging. Just wait and see when released

 

MAC

But what about hardcore submarine simulations, hmmm?

[Alesia]

if the income is coming from arcade players then what incentive is there to work on adding fidelity? very naïve thinking.

 

what I am saying is that the very few....(like count on one hand)..... titles that claim to be actual simulators and are in development or still supported should perhaps be preserved as high fidelity because there is enough arcade crap available and if you really think that making mollycoddling features is going to inspire enough of todays generation into becoming high fidelity enthusiasts then you are dreaming, where exactly is the logic behind having stuff like mouse aim to inspire somebody to want to then do it the hard way? it certainly isn't going to actually teach them to do it the hard way.

 

I wasnt suggesting arcade modes or features for BOS. I was suggesting small things like partial engine management so people can learn how to fly before having to worry about every detail with the engine. Seperate these people onto another server so established and experianced simmers are on 100% equal footing with what they are flying against and let the new people learn.

 

Given the attitude you have displayed in this thread however i do not think it is worth continuing to argue with you.

[Alesia]

If by attitude you mean my tendency to be rigid in my views because I have thought them through then yes I wouldn't recommend arguing with me, but I can't help but wonder how training missions specifically designed to introduce the uninitiated can't do the job of teaching these things, I am at a loss to see where one actually 'learns' anything if it is done for you as opposed to actually doing it under guidance.......you know.....a bit like being instructed.

 

 

I agree properly designed tutorials would do the job, in fact I would love to see great tutorials as I stated on my first post in this thread.  HOWEVER, every single tutorial I have ever done has been very light for just plainly poorly done so I woulnd't hold my breath.  That and making a tutorial feel natural and at the same time exciting.  The problem is pulling off both.  So let me correct myself, without a proper tutorial that teaches and engages new players artificial training mechnisms would probably have to be put in place.  Honestly I don't like that sort of thing as much as the next guy but excuse me hoping straight to that end without discussing a proper tutorial.  I did not think twice about the tutorial as probably 99% of the tutorials I have done have been almost an after thought.  I applied past experiance rather than discussing what SHOULD be done.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I started playing flight sims like F-19 and Gunship when I was 13 or 14 years old and they were far from intuitive.

 

I think it's crazy we should even be talking about making it even easier for new people to get in to IL2 or ROF. It's not exactly hard and if people really can't figure it out what with all the resources and youtube guides out there I really worry for the future of the human race

[dburne]

I started playing flight sims like F-19 and Gunship when I was 13 or 14 years old and they were far from intuitive.

 

I think it's crazy we should even be talking about making it even easier for new people to get in to IL2 or ROF. It's not exactly hard and if people really can't figure it out what with all the resources and youtube guides out there I really worry for the future of the human race

 

I agree that it would not be that hard if people used resources and took the time to learn using what is available to them. Yes, I did the same back in the mid 90's when I first started flight simming, I have very fond memories of studying the manuals ( printed of course) , taking my time as I went with the manual by my side, learning as much as I could.

 

The newer generation today, are growing up in more of a instant gratification world. Thanks to all the newer technology out there, heck just look at what all a smart phone can do, at the touch of a button. Our way of learning, is now old school... and it will continue to change to the latter as time moves on. it will be interesting to see how serious flight simulators for the PC will adjust.

[FlatSpinMan]

What TF happened here? How does this happen?

 

Locked until I can look at it properly.

In the meantime, please remember that clear, firm discussion is good, but that potentially insulting content should be avoided. That said, generalized off-hand comments in an Internet forum should not be taken too much to heart.

[FlatSpinMan]

Okay, let's try this again.

 

So, Are simulators slowly dying, or will this current generation come out swinging?

 

We were doing so well there for a while.