Chasing icons, being NORMAL, and as a result wobbling ?

January 20, 2015

Strange tittle, I know

Well, what happens is that each time I re-install il-2 BoS, to give it a new try, I find more reasons for not being fool and uninstalling it again, but I know, from years of knowing my intricate mind, that sooner or latter I'll be falling in the same mistake - examining the week points of a sim, as some way to making me not like it and stick to the alternative, and then, feeling it doesn't match my expectations and... hitting that awful UNINSTALL button

Well, the wobbling and overall flight feel of the aircraft, particularly the Axis fighters, has been one of my major complaints, so, I decided to fly online at a few EXPERT servers, no icons no nothing, an had, as it happened before, the immediate sensation that after all the flight dynamics felts just good, stable, plausible ? Had the version changed - no for sure, no update!

Is there a difference in the way the flight dynamics are affected from NORMAL to EXPERT mode ? The most direct answer is a round NO! but that's not totally accurate for, specially on aircraft with pilot controlled CS or variable pitch prop, when this is done automatically, plus the management of the engine power, that impacts on the way the aircraft flies, for the good and for the bad, and can, in fact, change our perspective of the "flight dynamics" ...

But, I found as I jumped, at the end of 3 extraordinary experiences flying EXPERT at the SYN MP server, that as soon as I got into one of the NORMAL servers, something was irreparably WRONG! In a few minutes, starting to chase those helpful but rather distracting icons allover the places, my Bf109 started wobbling, feeling strange, "elastic", too heavy ( when I had even filled it only with 40% fuel and no cannons ???? What was going on ?

Well, I begin to have a theory about this... and it somehow compares to my experience in DCS World where, because I have a terrible difficulty identifying other aircraft around me, I choose to fly at servers that have icons enables and or the F5 ( external chase ) view, and then, I start breaking my K4 and even my P51d wingtips very easily, because I begin to be a lot more concentrated in a rather unnatural way of following the foes ( from a view perspective that no pilot could ever have had in ww2 - external with chase!!! ), instead of carefully flying the aircraft !!!!

And actually, this is what I think happens as well with BoS when I start chasing icons, and using external ( F2 et al... ) views to ease my tasks, and forgetting about the correct way to fly ( vly ) the aircraft ! That is probably, at least for me, the biggest difference, and the only explanation I now have for the different feel ALL of the fighters, Axis or VVS, have when flying EXPERT vs flying NORMAL !

Unless one of the Devs can confirm that there are hidden differences in the flight dynamics between NORMAL and EXPERT modes ?

Well, just to come to and end of this looong morning writing ( it's because it's early morning ... ) I'd say, il-2 BoS feels GREAT sometimes !... Well, most of the times actually :-)

January 20, 2015

Well, when I'm landing I'm not chasing icons, and all the planes, Russian or German still wobble.

They wobble in cruise condition, they wobble in the climb, they wobble wobble wobble no matter what.

The aircraft in BoS are as stable as a balsa wood and tissue model in a thunderstorm.

January 20, 2015

Well, when I'm landing I'm not chasing icons, and all the planes, Russian or German still wobble.

They wobble in cruise condition, they wobble in the climb, they wobble wobble wobble no matter what.

The aircraft in BoS are as stable as a balsa wood and tissue model in a thunderstorm.

It's Either a bad Joystick or a shaky Hand. Never experiencing any wobble (unless i Force it)

January 20, 2015

Neither do I, as we discussed before. All planes fly stable, I haven't seen any wobbling in normal flight since the 109 FM was fixed last summer. I can force the planes to yaw and pitch around when I fly maneuvers at the edge of a stall, such as the "falling leaf" maneuver, but this is actually like it should be, and I think it's modeled well. And again, this is with a Warthog with 15cm extension.

Re. the joystick... There was a time when I was simming helicopters in x-plane. For helicopters, quick responses and precise movements are essential (unless using the "stability augmentation" that some sims offer). At first I was totally unable to keep the choppers under control, so I read up on it and found that joysticks are different in their level of precision. Some have potentiometers that progress in tiny "steps", so you don't get a continuous movement but rather a sequence of incremental steps. I didn't do any real testing on this but I found that my Warthog is smoother than my CHPro fighter stick.

January 20, 2015

I have to agree. I had the wobble problem in every sim I ever flew until I finally picked up a warthog. Do yourself a favor and just save up a bit for a solid flight stick and the wobble will be a thing of the past along with the countless hours trying to "fix" it.

Cheers!

January 20, 2015

Well, when I'm landing I'm not chasing icons, and all the planes, Russian or German still wobble.

They wobble in cruise condition, they wobble in the climb, they wobble wobble wobble no matter what.

The aircraft in BoS are as stable as a balsa wood and tissue model in a thunderstorm.

You are correct, all the planes in BOS to some degree have this.

Granted, the better the hardware the more it can be tuned and compensated for somewhat, but the effect to some extent is still there.

It almost seems like the planes are trying to behave somewhat like the lighter WWI planes of it's predecessor, which considering was the model this sim was built upon , is not totally surprising.

January 20, 2015

I agree with usrrku completely .... so if anyone wants to contribute to MY Warthog fund, just throw it in the hat ....

Chief

January 20, 2015

I have heard this "wobble" issue serveral times in different simulator /flight games from many people. In the end most of them are only due to a cheap, or bad stick. I was flying with an old Saitek pro evo: wobbling, changed to an x 52 pro: less wobling, got an thrustmaster warthog in the end: NO wobble unless i force the plane to do so.

Just to compare: when flying DCS i got no wobbling with all of these joysticks, in warthunder (although i know its no sim) I had wobbling issues with the 2 more expansiv joysticks. That been said i want to point out that problems are not always due to the game itself. In this spezial case it depends on the hardware. There are ways for the developer to shallow /smoth the controllinputs for different joysticks to make the game playable with all kind of stick, somehow i think that would overthrow their moneymanagement. (and its not important in the actual stage of developement)

This issue was researched by games with greater customerbases then IL2 and is hardly solvable for such a small crew.

January 20, 2015

Neither do I, as we discussed before. All planes fly stable, I haven't seen any wobbling in normal flight since the 109 FM was fixed last summer. I can force the planes to yaw and pitch around when I fly maneuvers at the edge of a stall, such as the "falling leaf" maneuver, but this is actually like it should be, and I think it's modeled well. And again, this is with a Warthog with 15cm extension.

Re. the joystick... There was a time when I was simming helicopters in x-plane. For helicopters, quick responses and precise movements are essential (unless using the "stability augmentation" that some sims offer). At first I was totally unable to keep the choppers under control, so I read up on it and found that joysticks are different in their level of precision. Some have potentiometers that progress in tiny "steps", so you don't get a continuous movement but rather a sequence of incremental steps. I didn't do any real testing on this but I found that my Warthog is smoother than my CHPro fighter stick.

i have the X52 pro and after some practicing with it (~200 hours) i don't have any problems with wobbling as well, and this stick is a stump compared to the warthog (non-drinker and non-smoker however ). Before i had a Thrustmaster Hotas X, and this piece of crap isn't any better then a Xbox360 controller, serious Sims unplayable. I am definitely gonna buy a warthog though, once my 52 dies (i hope a long time in the future)

You are correct, all the planes in BOS to some degree have this.

Granted, the better the hardware the more it can be tuned and compensated for somewhat, but the effect to some extent is still there.

It almost seems like the planes are trying to behave somewhat like the lighter WWI planes of it's predecessor, which considering was the model this sim was built upon , is not totally surprising.

"tuned and compensated" you are joking right? This game simulates the aerodynamics in flight a million times better then any other sim. If you don't have the hardware or the skills to master this, it's definitely not a problem of the game. WW2 planes with their ~3t are still very light. Did you ever fly a cessna? it has around 60% of the weight, then you'd know better how light aircrafts have to feel.

I have heard this "wobble" issue serveral times in different simulator /flight games from many people. In the end most of them are only due to a cheap, or bad stick. I was flying with an old Saitek pro evo: wobbling, changed to an x 52 pro: less wobling, got an thrustmaster warthog in the end: NO wobble unless i force the plane to do so. Just to compare: when flying DCS i got no wobbling with all of these joysticks, in warthunder (although i know its no sim) I had wobbling issues with the 2 more expansiv joysticks. That been said i want to point out that problems are not always due to the game itself. In this spezial case it depends on the hardware. There are ways for the developer to shallow /smoth the controllinputs for different joysticks to make the game playable with all kind of stick, somehow i think that would overthrow their moneymanagement. (and its not important in the actual stage of developement) This issue was researched by games with greater customerbases then IL2 and is hardly solvable for such a small crew.

Completely agree. In DCS you just got no wobbling, because aerodynamic physics are not modeled at all in this game. It's just like flying in outer space right now. With my X52 i don't have wobbling issues in any Sim (1946, Clod, BoS, DCS, RoF)

January 20, 2015

Well, if you think my CH gear is cheap, then we are on different planets.

Everyone I fly with, and have for years with these guys, has the same experience, regardless of joystick type. And these are real life military pilots not some n00bs puttering around in 172s.

There is simply too much Rise of Flight in BoS.

And if you are saying that a Thrustmaster Warthog is the only viable option for this sim, then Battle of Stalingrad is doomed.

Edited January 20, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

January 20, 2015

You are correct, all the planes in BOS to some degree have this.

Granted, the better the hardware the more it can be tuned and compensated for somewhat, but the effect to some extent is still there.

It almost seems like the planes are trying to behave somewhat like the lighter WWI planes of it's predecessor, which considering was the model this sim was built upon , is not totally surprising.

Based on what, when you say you have not flown it since the campaign was released...refusing because you had to do 4 tutorials, rather a lot of updates since then, how long is it since you flew BoS?

Cheers Dakpilot

January 20, 2015

Well, if you think my CH gear is cheap, then we are on different planets.

Everyone I fly with, and have for years with these guys, has the same experience, regardless of joystick type. And these are real life military pilots not some n00bs puttering around in 172s.

There is simply too much Rise of Flight in BoS.

And if you are saying that a Thrustmaster Warthog is the only viable option for this sim, then Battle of Stalingrad is doomed.

Those real life military pilots fly 30t+ jets, they have no idea at all how a light propeller aircraft feels. A 172 is closer to a WW2 fighter by a mile. Apparently you and "everyone you fly with" just have to learn to fly with proper modeled aerodynamics. Because there just was no other WW2 flight game so far, doing this. Your last sentence like said already a few times is complete bollocks. Doing perfectly with the X52

January 20, 2015

Well, if you think my CH gear is cheap, then we are on different planets.

Everyone I fly with, and have for years with these guys, has the same experience, regardless of joystick type. And these are real life military pilots not some n00bs puttering around in 172s.

There is simply too much Rise of Flight in BoS.

And if you are saying that a Thrustmaster Warthog is the only viable option for this sim, then Battle of Stalingrad is doomed.

Since iam a student with not that much money to spend, i realy don´t want to argue about whats cheap and whats not. For me everything is too expansive no matter if i buy it in the end or not. Nevertheless it is true that some joysticks are better and some are worse. Some of my squadron mates flying with the cheapest sticks you can imagine and are realy realy good. Because they can. Others own the same hardware and can´t stop the complaining.

To be honest CH gear is not the best.... just my opinion. The pedals are nice, the sticks are ... a forget about that. This channel was about wobbling. The core of what i said is: Every Joystick is different and some are not working perfectly with BOS and some do so. In other games it might be different with the same joystick without any reason. That has NOTHING to do with the flight physik. Otherwise it would be a problem with EVERY stick. Just get this in your mind please.

And please don´t tell me the "military real life pilot" stuff. iam flying as well and my uncle is pilot flying the EF, even when flying the best jets there are always some with "loose controlssticks" or other non perfekt parts (every jet is different). A real pilot know that he has to work around problems with non "perfekt" peaces in his personal armament/hardware.

January 20, 2015

Based on what, when you say you have not flown it since the campaign was released...refusing because you had to do 4 tutorials, rather a lot of updates since then, how long is it since you flew BoS?

Cheers Dakpilot

Seriously...

I already stated previously how long it has been.

I did not stop playing due to having to do tutorials. Have never said that.

Yes, you are correct there have been some updates since - are you saying this issue has been addressed? I had not seen any mention of that, would certainly be great if that was the case, although that is not why I stopped playing the game. Based on BlitzPig's post, it would appear to not be the case.

January 20, 2015

Planes wobbles not sticks. In DCS planes are more stable in the air thats why there are no wobbling by pitch or roll, there is still some oscilation with yaw but it should be that way.

In BOS Russian planes are more stable in the air then German ones thats why fly more natural way and got less wobbling, still there is some oscilation causing by controls movements. I dont belive that it is question of stick becasue it is just plane action and reaction on controls movement.

If it would be question of stick all planes in BOS would be wobble in the same degree but it is not that way.

Edited January 20, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

January 20, 2015

Planes wobbles not sticks. In DCS planes are more stable in the air thats why there are no wobbling by pitch or roll, there is still some oscilation with yaw but it should be that way.

In BOS Russian planes are more stable in the air then German ones thats why fly more natural way and got less wobbling, still there is some oscilation causing by controls movements. I dont belive that it is question of stick becasue it is just plane action and reaction on controls movement.

If it would be question of stick all planes in BOS would be wobble in the same degree but it is not that way.

the 190 doesnt wobble at all. you really have to force it very hard to get any wobble with it. And the 109 was very well-known to be very very hard to fly, the germans called this plane "untamable wild horse" for a reason. Former 109 test pilots who got their hands to the spitfire regarded it as "easy to fly like a toy", compared to the 109

January 20, 2015

the 190 doesnt wobble at all. you really have to force it very hard to get any wobble with it. And the 109 was very well-known to be very very hard to fly, the germans called this plane "untamable wild horse" for a reason. Former 109 test pilots who got their hands to the spitfire regarded it as "easy to fly like a toy", compared to the 109

Curious... Than why is there this unspoken consensus that the German aircraft (particularly the 109) are EZM0DEJ0YR1DE (and I am not talking about the Kommandogerat) and the VVS aircraft are not?

Wouldn't it be the opposite? Sure, no engine management but I shouldn't be able to keep the aircraft in the air very easily, right?

January 20, 2015

109 was not hard to fly. It was rather difficult to take off and land but in the air it was stable plane and was good in stall fight due to slats.

January 21, 2015

Let me be clear. I am NOT saying you need a warthog to enjoy flight simming. I just meant that it will benefit you greatly to find a stick with good word of mouth that is in your financial wheelhouse. You will spend much more time just flying instead of tweaking your stick. You may need to save for a bit but it will be worth it.

January 21, 2015

It's an interesting observation that you feel your flying is different with the labels on or off. Quite plausible.

January 21, 2015

The ~50$ Tm T.16000M use the same 3D HALL sensor used in WH, and his gimbal does not usually break like in the last, and his various press buttons is more useful for WWII planes (MG, cannons, rockets) that those HATS in WH.

No need break the "piggy bank" to have a reasonable joystick.

January 22, 2015

There are so ,many BoS 109 vids out with no wobble at all, that this discussion could come to an end. I never had any wobble, and I am pretty sure to have the same model here.

The guys still insisting to have wobble should just make a track file. Then everyone could see, that it is a steered wobble. Stick push - nose wobbles down, stick pull - nose wobbles up.

January 22, 2015

JComm,

As you said, "chasing icons."

Normal servers = instant action; flying quickly transitions to max performing your aircraft (the region where some report "wobble")

"Expert" = mostly flying in a manner that allows you to build your SA (i.e. mild maneuvering) until commiting to a fight.

Flying style, rather than flight models, are the difference between the two.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Prefontaine

January 22, 2015

Those real life military pilots fly 30t+ jets, they have no idea at all how a light propeller aircraft feels. A 172 is closer to a WW2 fighter by a mile. Apparently you and "everyone you fly with" just have to learn to fly with proper modeled aerodynamics. Because there just was no other WW2 flight game so far, doing this. Your last sentence like said already a few times is complete bollocks. Doing perfectly with the X52

Wing loadings at empty and max take off weight;

172 = 9.7 - 14.1 lb/sqft

Pe-2 = 29.7 - 43 lb/sqft

Fw 190 = 35.8 - 54.8 lb/sqft

A-4 = 40.4 - 94.6 lb/sqft

F-15 = 46 - 112 lb/sqft

I think this is quite illustrative in showing you the reality of wing loadings in ww2 aircraft. While modern jets can unsurprisingly hit very high wing loadings they can also hit numbers in the same ball park as ww2 fighters. Add in the additional lift generated by the fuselage in the case of the f-15 and the real world numbers are probably much closer. For real fun look at the wing loadings military trainers ;^)

Meanwhile the 172 at twice(!!!) its max take-off weight is just starting to get close to empty wing loadings of the aircraft we have in game.

I do not know what your definition of closer by a mile is but it is not the same as mine.

January 22, 2015

Same problem for me, actually Im struggling to find an answer, given two scenarios

1 - the extreme wobbling is an accurate simulation of real ww2 fighters, and I'm a noob about everything (flying, setting my simple logitech extreme 3d pro stick, whatever)

2 - the extreme wobbling is a flaw affecting BoS' flight model

I tend to think it's option 1, althought the wobbling, and the overall "hell, this thing is out of control!" feeling involves flying, shooting, dogfighting

My HUGE doubt: same player (me), same pc, same stick and NO problems at all in any other game (1946, cliffs of dover, war thunder, etc)

January 22, 2015

Wing loadings at empty and max take off weight;

172 = 9.7 - 14.1 lb/sqft

Pe-2 = 29.7 - 43 lb/sqft

Fw 190 = 35.8 - 54.8 lb/sqft

A-4 = 40.4 - 94.6 lb/sqft

F-15 = 46 - 112 lb/sqft

I think this is quite illustrative in showing you the reality of wing loadings in ww2 aircraft. While modern jets can unsurprisingly hit very high wing loadings they can also hit numbers in the same ball park as ww2 fighters. Add in the additional lift generated by the fuselage in the case of the f-15 and the real world numbers are probably much closer. For real fun look at the wing loadings military trainers ;^)

Meanwhile the 172 at twice(!!!) its max take-off weight is just starting to get close to empty wing loadings of the aircraft we have in game.

I do not know what your definition of closer by a mile is but it is not the same as mine.

and the Antonov An 225, biggest heaviest aircraft ever built has a wingload of 45 lb/sqft. when it has no cargo, so what exactly should this tell me?! You think this plane feels like a Fw190 when you fly it?

January 22, 2015

and the Antonov An 225, biggest heaviest aircraft ever built has a wingload of 45 lb/sqft. when it has no cargo, so what exactly should this tell me?! You think this plane feels like a Fw190 when you fly it?

An-225

Empty weight 682,317

Wing area 9740

Which puts it at an empty wing loading of 64.5 lb\sqft.

Where are you getting 45 from?

But of course it will "feel" very different due to the moment of inertia, moment arm of the control surfaces, different wing, ect ect.

The point of my post was to refute this statement made by you;

Those real life military pilots fly 30t+ jets, they have no idea at all how a light propeller aircraft feels

The idea that a 190, or other ww2 fighters are "light" and comparable to a 172 gets dispelled rather quickly when you actually look at the wing and power loadings of the two. Even a zero is significantly higher then a cessna.

Furthermore the statement that a modern fighter pilot has no idea how a prop plane flies goes out the window if you know what sort of aircraft they are trained on. They fly birds far closer to a 190 in wing and power loading then a 172.

January 22, 2015

Thanks LizLemon, saved me the time of looking it all up myself.

This is the type that most current US military pilots train on...

The Beechcraft Texan II. Depending on which version, it has between 1200 and 1600 HP. Really really close to a 172...

Honestly, the amount of disinformation on this board is shocking.

A few say they don't have stability issues, yet many more say that they do, including very experienced real world pilots. It doesn't add up.

Edited January 22, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

January 22, 2015

My HUGE doubt: same player (me), same pc, same stick and NO problems at all in any other game (1946, cliffs of dover, war thunder, etc)

You shouldn´t take those games as a reference. I never cared about them, because they all feel like flying on rails. RoF was the first flightsim that offered the feeling of being in the air.

Fly BoS like you would fly in RL. Keep the stick calm and steady, and there is no wobble. If you would through the stick up and down in a real plane, like you do here to get the wobble, you would be airsick in a minute.

A few say they don't have stability issues, yet many more say that they do, including very experienced real world pilots. It doesn't add up.

There are many experienced real world pilots, who have no stability issue. And to say, there are more, who have issues, is only an assumption of yours.

Upload a track with wobble, and we show you, why it wobbles by checking your stick inputs.

Edited January 22, 2015 by BlackDevil

January 22, 2015

An-225

Empty weight 682,317

Wing area 9740

Which puts it at an empty wing loading of 64.5 lb\sqft.

Where are you getting 45 from?

64,5 is with full fuel. Empty weight of this plane is 175t/385.000lb. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonow_An-225 that would make a wingload of 39lb/sqft. Add a little bit of fuel to fly a couple of thousand km, and you get to 45.

The point of my post was to refute this statement made by you;

ok, but the point you made with your post is complete nonsense, because wingload has nothing to do, how a plane feels aerodynamicly. I think the Antonov clearly shows that, no matter if it has 45 or 64. So your complete post didn't make any sense, because it show's absolute nothing. Apparently you are not a pilot IRL otherwise you knew that.

The aerodynamics of a plane in a certain situation are dependend from the plane size, the plane weight, the plane shape, and the plane's current speed. Not dependend from the power or the wing load of the plane.

In general you can say the lighter and slower the plane, the more it wobbles around. The heavier and faster the plane, the less it wobbles around = gets affected by blowholes, winds and airstream.

Honestly, the amount of disinformation on this board is shocking.

A few say they don't have stability issues, yet many more say that they do, including very experienced real world pilots. It doesn't add up.

yeah it is. "a few" You know who hast stability issues? The people who have a bad joystick, or don't have a stable hand, or are beginners (when i started this game, my planes were wobbling around too). The vast majority don't have any problems at all. The fact that numerous people with different joysticks have no problems at all already proofs, that it's definitely not the game's fault, that other one's have problems. Apparently they have to buy better gear or train more (or stop smoking and drinking to get a more stable hand) "experienced real world pilots"...sure. Strange, that i didn't ever see one of them in the forums, talking about anything.

Quite the opposite...any real life pilot i know, including me, and their are a few around have the opinion, that BoS is the first and only Sim, which modeles aerodynamics properly

Honestly, i can't hear those nonsense "wobbling" accusations anymore, by noobs or people with bad gear.

It's the same, like people are complaining in Assetto Corsa (Hardcore racing sim) they can't handle their car properly with a Xbox360 controller

Edited January 22, 2015 by Celestiale

January 22, 2015

Quite the opposite...any real life pilot i know, including me, and their are a few around have the opinion, that BoS is the first and only Sim, which modeles aerodynamics properly

signed

January 22, 2015

1 - the extreme wobbling is an accurate simulation of real ww2 fighters, and I'm a noob about everything (flying, setting my simple logitech extreme 3d pro stick, whatever)

I had 2 Logitech Extreme 3D in the past. I loved their comfort and their price. However, for both of them, I saw their precision decreasing with time. After some weeks of use, you could see the cross wobbling in the joystick configuration tool windows from the windows control panel.

A good mini-game to check your joystick quality:

- Go to the BOS control configuration screen and select, for a command involving an axis, the advanced tuning of this axis (small curve icon).

- You have then a full screen view of your joystick position (as well as the actual simulated control stick but it is not the point here)

- Choose a position of the cursor on the screen and try to reach it as fast as possible with your stick and stabilize it.

- Do the same with each axis.

If you can't perfectly stabilize the cursor, your joystick wobbles. If you have any kind of issue reaching a previously chosen position in a short amount of time, you haven issue with your joystick.

Edited January 22, 2015 by haltux

January 22, 2015

I hear it said quite often that because RoF was WW1 BoS inherits the 'wobbly' feel of older lighter A/C (although personally I don't notice RoF aircraft to have wobbles)

However perhaps the 'on rails' feel that some feel is present in DCS is from that titles heritage of fast jets and Clod's on rails feel comes from its original IL-2 heritage

Personally I feel that those three examples above are all Bull waste and simply that it is a different feel that needs to be got used to from previous experiences which takes a while to come to grips with

I have no real issues with wobbles (notwithstanding some small FM issues that need some tweaks) Career Mil/Civ pilot with some warbird experience

While far from perfect (what is) it (and RoF) gives me a convincing feeling of 'flight' however it achieves it

Cheers Dakpilot

January 22, 2015

64,5 is with full fuel. Empty weight of this plane is 175t/385.000lb. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonow_An-225 that would make a wingload of 39lb/sqft. Add a little bit of fuel to fly a couple of thousand km, and you get to 45.

This is far lower then any numbers I can pull up on english pages.

And it doesn't make much sense since it puts the 225 at a lower empty weight the a 747-100 and far lower then an a380.

Looking at its mtow, record payload weights and max fuel weights the 285000kg weight works out.

ok, but the point you made with your post is complete nonsense, because wingload has nothing to do, how a plane feels aerodynamicly. I think the Antonov clearly shows that, no matter if it has 45 or 64. So your complete post didn't make any sense, because it show's absolute nothing. Apparently you are not a pilot IRL otherwise you knew that.

Go back and re-read my posts.

I did not claim that you can determine the "feel" of an aircraft by its wing loading.

I was refuting you statement that the aircraft in game, like the 190, is a "light prop plane" in line with something like a 172. It very obviously isn't close.

Because you made the claim that military pilots will have no idea on how something like a 190 would fly - which is clearly ignorant.

The aerodynamics of a plane in a certain situation are dependend from the plane size, the plane weight, the plane shape, and the plane's current speed. Not dependend from the power or the wing load of the plane.

Wait, are you saying that wing loading has no bearing on how an aircraft handles or its aerodynamics?

Do you know what induced drag is?

Do you think powet loading has no bearing on how an aircraft handles?

In general you can say the lighter and slower the plane, the more it wobbles around. The heavier and faster the plane, the less it wobbles around = gets affected by blowholes, winds and airstream.

Gust loading or gust response is the name of the term in english.

It is actually the wing loading and span loading that are the biggest factors in gust response. Absolute weight is related to the period of the response.

Ps: what sort of experience do you have as a pilot.

January 22, 2015

Don't want to quote you several times so i will just post my answers into the quote, with red color

This is far lower then any numbers I can pull up on english pages.

And it doesn't make much sense since it puts the 225 at a lower empty weight the a 747-100 and far lower then an a380.

Looking at its mtow, record payload weights and max fuel weights the 285000kg weight works out.

If the empty weight would be really 285000kg, you would add to this number the fuel (300.000kg), and the cargo hold (250.000kg), you would end up at 835.000kg. But maximum takeoff weight is 640.000kg. 175.000kg empty weight + 300.000kg + 250.000kg on the other way are much closer. Apparently you can't take full fuel with full cargo load, but your 285.000kg + the 250.000kg ~~cargo would let room for 5.000kg of fuel, barely enough to take off and land again.~~ Crap, definitely not a good idea to learn for exams, and calculate other stuff at the same time. 105.000kg of course. But i still think, it's more likely with the 175.000kg, because then it could take at least almost full fuel.

Go back and re-read my posts.

I did not claim that you can determine the "feel" of an aircraft by its wing loading.

I was refuting you statement that the aircraft in game, like the 190, is a "light prop plane" in line with something like a 172. It very obviously isn't close.

Because you made the claim that military pilots will have no idea on how something like a 190 would fly - which is clearly ignorant.

190 has a little bit more then double the weight of modern sport planes. In comparison to a modern jet, that is very light. I didn't ever say, that it's "like" a 172. I only said it's much closer to a modern propeller plane, then to a modern jet.

I know that military pilots start their education with prop planes, but after ~20 years and multiple thousands of hours with a 35t Raptor, which beside takeoff is barely flying under 900kph, they might forget how the feel of those planes were, and that is in my opinion not ignorant. My first car was a 75hp compact car, for 5 years now a got a 250hp sports car. Just recently i drove my mum's car (70hp compact car), and i couldn't believe the "feeling of driving". Sitting so high, having no power at all, feeling in the turns (i almost fell out of the first curve, because i was to fast). I completely forgot all that after just a few years...so i believe it's not ignorant, to believe, that the same could happen to military pilots.

Wait, are you saying that wing loading has no bearing on how an aircraft handles or its aerodynamics?

Do you know what induced drag is?

Do you think powet loading has no bearing on how an aircraft handles?

I was never talking about how the aircraft handles. I was only talking about how it responses to wind and airholes, and to the airstream (which when it get's altered through small rudder/elevator steerings let the plane shake because small swirls are being created)

Gust loading or gust response is the name of the term in english.

It is actually the wing loading and span loading that are the biggest factors in gust response. Absolute weight is related to the period of the response.

Ps: what sort of experience do you have as a pilot.

Only hobby. Sport planes, like Cessna, Piper, At3. But with those planes, and with a stick which has 5-10 times the length of a joystick, it's still very very hard to keep a certain heading around +/- 3°, because even the slightest steerings let the plane wobble around, i won't even imagine how hard it is, if i tried to aim at a certain spot. I think the wobble in Stalingrad is still undermodeled, but they have to, due to the joystick sizes compared to the real life flight sticks. But just look at guncams, how often they missed their target. In my opinion in BoS its still way easier to hit a target, then it was in real life

Edited January 22, 2015 by Celestiale

January 22, 2015

Well, when I'm landing I'm not chasing icons, and all the planes, Russian or German still wobble.

They wobble in cruise condition, they wobble in the climb, they wobble wobble wobble no matter what.

The aircraft in BoS are as stable as a balsa wood and tissue model in a thunderstorm.

LOL.

But true

BOS is by far the best is true but still will never truly replicate flight IRL, But comes closer than most.

Rubber band effect especially in yaw......needs a tweak

Edited January 22, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

January 22, 2015

it´s not the plane, it´s the pilot

January 22, 2015

it´s not the plane, it´s the pilot

Perhaps we should have a poll how many "pilots" in BOS actually hold a Pilots license IRL ,??????

BOS is not a Plane it is a Simulator.....look the word "simulator" up in the dictionary.

Edited January 22, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

January 22, 2015

Thanks LizLemon, saved me the time of looking it all up myself.

This is the type that most current US military pilots train on...

The Beechcraft Texan II. Depending on which version, it has between 1200 and 1600 HP.   Really really close to a 172...

Honestly, the amount of disinformation on this board is shocking.

A few say they don't have stability issues, yet many more say that they do, including very experienced real world pilots.   It doesn't add up.

+1

LOL

Shorts Tucano, Raytheon Texan 2, Embraer,

This planes made all over, but doesn't look much like a 172 to me, the low wing and inline seating arrangement wing is a bit of a give away

Edited January 22, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

January 22, 2015

I had 2 Logitech Extreme 3D in the past. I loved their comfort and their price. However, for both of them, I saw their precision decreasing with time. After some weeks of use, you could see the cross wobbling in the joystick configuration tool windows from the windows control panel.

A good mini-game to check your joystick quality:

- Go to the BOS control configuration screen and select, for a command involving an axis, the advanced tuning of this axis (small curve icon).

- You have then a full screen view of your joystick position (as well as the actual simulated control stick but it is not the point here)

- Choose a position of the cursor on the screen and try to reach it as fast as possible with your stick and stabilize it.

- Do the same with each axis.

If you can't perfectly stabilize the cursor, your joystick wobbles. If you have any kind of issue reaching a previously chosen position in a short amount of time, you haven issue with your joystick.

thank you, I will try this!

Chasing icons, being NORMAL, and as a result wobbling ?

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