No Infantry why?

[Rigsby]

I just purchased the Sim and then read that there will be no infantry in it which makes me a little disappointed. I thought infantry would play a big part in a battle for Stalingrad, and there was nothing I liked better then seeing infantry jumping out of trucks in the old IL2 when they came under fire. Have they been left out because it would be to much of a resource hog or is there another reason behind this? I really would have like to have seen infantry in this Sim, even if it was for something like I mentioned above, to have them jumping out of vehicles when coming under attack etc.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Well it wouldn't be realistic unless we could have thousands of them anyway so it's hardly a big deal.

[hiro]

It's about priority. 

 

IF you've kept up with the dev-arshians, then you will know they take things deliberately and consider the game carefully. If anything is to be included it won't be half bleeped and it will have a definite rhyme and reason to fit in the game. 

 

 

The devs have had a limited time frame to develop this game from the ROF engine. 

 

Also the first and foremost is controlling scope creep (all aspects of game development . . .  game features and timing, story line / plot, development, and testing, then final product and release).

 

A case of badly handled scope creep was IL-2 CLOD . . . and we all know that was nerfed (broken) because they didn't handle that beast (scope of the game).  And even after release patches and fixes couldn't help it. 

 

Then there's the engine modification from ROF, no one wants a ROF engine, they want the feeling IL-2 original gave, and ROF engine needs some adjustment. 

 

FM, proper and accurate, and historical . . . and enough to expand to fit WW 2 and Korea. There's a lot of time eating up by that.

 

 

Then there's the DM, complex and realistic. Time eaten up. 

 

Ok now move on to CEM . . . complex, realistic, but balanced to point where one's not spending 30 minutes RL time trying to get 1 engine started  . . .  

 

Then the ever present AI creature . . . gotta make it so it's not doing dumb things like crashing into each other and believable, but also not the laser guided / radar gunnery, uber accuracy that IL-2 of old had, so Captain Jean Luc Picard and Captain James Tiberius Kirk was jealous enough to beg Q to fold them to 1946 verse for some knowledge dropping. Or the B-29 death star jam. 

So yeah, want to make AI something better than what we had. 

 

Oh wait what about 10 airplanes and cockpits, and controls for CEM from the 'pits, and pilot animations etc . .. 

 

Oh and must remember the non flyables, and ground vehicles . . . they got their own interactions and physics etc. 

 

AAA? Flak? 

 

Well then there's proper coding and architecture planning so the engine will be healthy and updatable (CLOD had an advance engine but it was hard to maintain and fix). 

 

Hey what about ballistics and physics modelling? And how they interact with each other. You want the plane to experience some effect hitting trees, or do we want CLOD submarine foliage action? Or about Sky Captain and WOrld of TOmorrow diving airplanes and flying fish action with the VOlga? I'd say no, but there's time taken up by that.

 

Also the devs have to make something workable but expandable to allow more factors (such as wind / prop effects / explosions / drafts, climate, air density / pressure / temperature gradients and how they affect flighty . . . ) 

 

 

 

Then comes the candy, graphics, sound. What? And a female pilot! What? How about skins and other awesomeness. What?

 

And there's time out of the week prepping communiques so the rowdy roddy whiner and it's frieday frieday, dolphin hand ninjas will be appeased and good PR. 

 

 

and finally since Sky Captain's around, his cousin, Captain Obvious joins in with: 

 

It's not a TAC shooter or FPS shoot em up house like Medal of Honor or BF 3. WW 2 Combat Flight sim

 

 

That said, I'm sure the infantry will be in on a sequel or another theater . . . and it's on their "to do" list of features not with the initial release. 

Edited September 24, 2013 by hiro

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

 

 

 there was nothing I liked better then seeing infantry jumping out of trucks in the old IL2 when they came under fire. 

If I remember that was a mod was it not?

I would rather have the detailed aircraft, damage, flight models,CEM and other aircraft of that theater first. Not saying ground troops wouldn't be cool but lets get the aircraft right first.

 

^^^

What he said above as well. We posted about the same time.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Blackwolf

[LukeFF]

If I remember that was a mod was it not?

 

Nope, they were there from the very beginning.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Good to know..I did not know that.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

??????? There will be some manning vehicles and guns if the latest update is anything to go by

 

Edited September 24, 2013 by Skoshi_Tiger

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

??????? There will be some manning vehicles and guns if the latest update is anything to go by

 

 

Beat me to it.  Not only do they remind me of infantry, they look like mechanized infantry.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I just purchased the Sim and then read that there will be no infantry in it which makes me a little disappointed. I thought infantry would play a big part in a battle for Stalingrad, and there was nothing I liked better then seeing infantry jumping out of trucks in the old IL2 when they came under fire. Have they been left out because it would be to much of a resource hog or is there another reason behind this? I really would have like to have seen infantry in this Sim, even if it was for something like I mentioned above, to have them jumping out of vehicles when coming under attack etc.

 

Ok so besides the very valid and correct points above..........you purchased it THEN figured out it didn't have what you wanted? I'd start to do a little research on products if I were you. But before you do that I have a very nice ferrari for sale. All of its specs are listed. But before you read them. Please transfer the money. ;p

[Rigsby]

Ok so besides the very valid and correct points above..........you purchased it THEN figured out it didn't have what you wanted? I'd start to do a little research on products if I were you. But before you do that I have a very nice ferrari for sale. All of its specs are listed. But before you read them. Please transfer the money. ;p

 

I like to support all Sims like this regardless of their content, I would have bought this even if I had known there was no infantry. I purchased every DCS aircraft and I only fly the A10 -C. I know that sounds a bit daft, but without our support these Sims would die a death and I'm happy to go looking for a good one. But infantry aside, those who have purchased upfront will not know what they are getting until they get the game. You must understand, It's not always the reading that counts, I read lots of good things about other flight sims, but look what happened to many of them. I have a very good feeling about this game since I already bought lots of their stuff. That's why I never even bothered to read anything and anyways it was only a question as to why they left infantry out, it's no biggy. I am quite happy just to go dog fighting and flying around to be honest.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Rigsby

[trumps]

I feel much the same as the OP regarding the lack of infantry, For sure i understand the devs not including it due to initial time constraints, but this is the Eastern front we are talking about!

there probably wasn't a theatre in the war where aircraft were used so heavily in the low level ground support role, the very core of which is the infantry. obviously they don't have to be created in the detail of a FPS, or turn the game into a gore fest ( from what i remember many years back this was the excuse with il-2), but they should be there. If they were of so little importance why would they have gone to the effort of including them in the train strafing scene in the promo vid? they were what Stalingrad was all about! I do hope they find time at some stage to impliment this feature.

[BSS214Plane-Eater]

There is also a potential ESRB / PEGI ratings issue.  Which is part of the reason cockpit "splatter" in the original IL-2 disappeared very quickly, and humans visible on the ground were not destructable.

[Freycinet]

Beat me to it. Not only do they remind me of infantry, they look like mechanized infantry.

And not just mechanized but digitized as well! :-D

[trumps]

There is also a potential ESRB / PEGI ratings issue.  Which is part of the reason cockpit "splatter" in the original IL-2 disappeared very quickly, and humans visible on the ground were not destructable.

I remember this being the official excuse in IL-2 when it was released, personally i think this is a copout excuse, any one of 100 kiddie shooters has 10 times more blood and guts than what we would require in this, those games are pretty much targeted at younguns and don't seem to have any problems with selling or marketing them. Surely the marketing people realize that the audience which BoS is likely to garner is going to on average be older than the BF3 crowd, kids don't have the patience for sims.

 If the truth of the fact is that the engine can't handle the loads placed on it with troops, or it is going to push system reqs through the roof then just tell us straight. this is all i personally want from any developer, they will gain a lot of respect through this, ok we don't get what we always dream of but the honesty makes up for it!

[FuriousMeow]

The devs have never said ratings were the reason for no infantry, in fact I don't think they've ever given a reason - just a lot of insinuation on the forums. I am pretty certain it's due to hardware/software limitations and the fact you'll never see them unless there are thousands running across the ground choking the CPU's resources.

 

No need to cite other RTS or other games, they aren't in the same class and have their priorities in getting generic soldiers in large groups to operate properly because that's the core focus.

 

The only other air combat game I can think of with infanry in it, is WWIIOnline - and those are all player controlled infantry.

[MolotoK]

There's infantry running from a train in the pre-order trailer @0:39

http://youtu.be/c4014tNwcao?t=39s

 

Is that just for the trailer or actual in-game footage?

[Mabroc]

Nobody is asking for realistic numbers (more than 1 million Soviet soldiers died in Stalingrad if I remember correctly, not counting civilians there!) but some soldiers running for cover from bunkers, AAA sites, trucks, buildings, trains, etc would be nice, no need to put even gore or blood (just open the texture format to have the chance to MOD and the hakenkreuz for example). Observers jumping from recon ballons under attack, ambulance and fire trucks moving when a plane crash land or have injured crew(Red Baron II had those), maybe fuel and ammo trucks moving around the field. All that improve the feeling of you been "there".

 

Maybe putting columns of moving soldiers with very basic AI, moving by squad (like many RTS do) with the same AI than trucks? Or very basic AI shared with tanks to attack enemy squads, tanks, truck or flee from them. Like I mentioned before Red Baron II had those, dozens of tiny sprite soldiers running towards enemy lines being mowed down by MG pillboxes, artillery explosions, tank moving and shooting with them! You could even heard them screaming "charge!" or something like that and they were susceptible to be MG to death by your plane and fall dead on the spot screaming on agony.... I was just a kid when I did that on that sim, once just to check if possibly, twice because I wasnt sure that I killed that poor grunt or the artillery did.....never again I attacked a soldier on that game, I was so struck by the carnage that the defenders already did every time than I couldnt kill one more poor sod grunt. That's immersion.

 

Ahhh!!! And don't forget horses, we need those aswell..... :)

And they will be a good practice for the modeller before He tried to model reindeers.....yes, the soviets used reindeers too, I have photos of "reindeer AMMO trucks" towing sleds with bombs to parked Pe-2's.

 

Just found proof, with a MiG-3 this time:

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/white57.html

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/reindeers3.jpg

 

It seems that Vodka make you forget if horses have horns or not

Edited September 29, 2013 by Mabroc

[Sokol1]

 

The only other air combat game I can think of with infanry in it, is WWIIOnline - and those are all player controlled infantry.

 

In EAW are some people in roads - don't remember if static of mobile..

 

In WW Fighters are some mechanized infantry that DIED when strafed - example motorcyclist - and running deer that DIED when strafed.

 

 

In Mig Alley are block of marching infantry that cursing  (in Chinese of Korean) when you "napalm" then in P-51 (and a T-6 "Mosquito" that mark targets with WP).

 

A kind of  targets for (il-2) Eastern front:

 

 

Sokol1

Edited September 30, 2013 by Sokol1

[FuriousMeow]

Never played the others, but EAW was sprites and they quickly disappeared after making it a predetermined distance. As a matter of fact, they were all sprites. That's why WW2Ol is the only one with actual infantry, because they are real 3D objects.

 

Sprites would look horrific.

 

And the old hearing the infantry over the sound of your own engine, nice in game land - but ridiculous.

Edited September 30, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Sokol1]

Yes, but fun - from 2000 Combatsim review:

 

 

Passing over an enemy after breaking up their little bingo game is a blast- you see them scatter and hear them curse in Chinese (or is it Korean) as you scream barely a prop disk diameter over their heads.

I know- hearing them call you names over the banshee wail of a Merlin is almost comic-book material. So sue me- I think it's fun.

 

And if you consider War Thunder "simulator":

 

 

An they "died" - and the target public is supposed early ages.

 

Sokol1

Edited October 1, 2013 by Sokol1

[FuriousMeow]

Yes, that's fine and dandy - but I don't like even hearing other aircraft over the sound of my own because it's gimmicky.

 

And if you consider War Thunder "simulator":

 

I absolutely do not.

[Sokol1]

Yes, that's fine and dandy - but I don't like even hearing other aircraft over the sound of my own because it's gimmicky.

 

 

Yes "gimmicky" and unnecessary,  but don't invalidate the fact that had infantry previously in a "flight game"  - by the standards of time (end of 90's) a "combat flight simulator".

 

BTW - For million of "potential consumers" War Thunder is a Combat Flight Simulator.

 

Sokol1

[FuriousMeow]

Yes, I know - but they were sprites back then which would look out of place these days.

 

Eventually, perhaps they can get infantry in when they have time and BoS is successful.

 

They (WT fans) can call it a simulator all they want, I consider it as much a simulator as the Call of Duty series is a serious tactical and military operations simulator.

Edited October 1, 2013 by FuriousMeow