Bumfluff Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 That is just not true. You must also consider that not everyone will/can fly BoS the same way. Some folks just cannot do the "Expert" thing.. some guys have to do Normal.. Be all this as it may very well be.. for many it just is just not fun. For me the only reason I do this is because I have to and from my perspective, even if the new content does not have this feature.. I still will not be able to use what is locked.. so my attitude, and what I have chosen to do for myself is .. suck it up and get it done.. but I am not happy about it at all. I got most of the unlocks done while on holiday staycation otherwise it would have taken me much longer. I still have a few left to do .. but IMO the best way for BoS to survive moving forward is to make the sim as accessible to as wide a group of simmers as possible. The sim is good enough to stand on it's own to feet and the primary obstacle to it not being a smashing success has been the unlocks. Even the presets while annoying have not overshadowed the unlocks as a bone of contention for the sim community at large. No amount of sugar coating or denial will change this. Having said that, as I said.. this team is not stupid and I think the reason the unlocks have not been changed for now is because they cannot be at this point. That does not mean that this will be the way that new content will be managed in the future or that they may not eventually be removed, but at this point in time it is just not doable, or as easily doable as some may think without creating more problems in other areas. None if us know.. only the devs do and they are not obligated to explain every nuts and bolts decision they make. No dev does that or ever has. The bottom line in this is we can discuss and ask and complain and complain about complainers till the cows come home.. but none of that will change anything. If anything does change on this issue .. it will be when the devs are ready/able to implement it and no amount of input from us will change that. These guys are not stupid and I have no doubt that they have seen every aspect of the unfolding events sine the sim was released. I would be very surprised and very disappointed if moving forward with new content was implemented the same way. In the meantime as a simmer and a customer it is in my best interest to just get it done. It is a PITA but it is not insurmountable. The fact that BoS is a great sim in spite of this motivates me to just get it done. Kind of like joining another branch of the military and having to go through basic all over again without the yelling and screaming.. I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea we should suck up the unlocks and grind on to just get it done. It's plain most founders were surprised and dismayed by the introduction of the unlocks system (no matter what was supposedly contained in the fine print during development). It's also plain most players don't want unlocks. Therefore we should continue to protest their existence with a strong voice. Cheers.
ST_ami7b5 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Rockets are useless. Well, depends... I have achieved good result using them in campaign against ground targets. For example when attacking trains I would go from behind and when near enough - spraying vagons with rockets, destroying AA. Then I would turn and finish the locomotive from the side with a few cannon rounds. Also sometimes I managed to destroy all those 4 parked planes at enemy airfield by a single sweep attack using rockets... The secret is in my sig: "If you're close, get closer". Edited January 17, 2015 by ST_ami7b5
Finkeren Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Why are you even talking about rockets for the La-5? The La-5 in BoS can't even carry rockets! (Which AFIAK is historically correct, as the VVS was phasing out the use of rockets on fighters from spring 1942) As for the main point about needing the unlocks to be able to do ground attack: You need to fly only the very first tutorial mission the unlock the VYa-23 for the LaGG, and for all the other fighters the primary ground attack unlocks are situated in the first 1/3 of the progress bar. If you can't hold your nose and play the 2 - 3 SP missions it takes to get those unlocks on normal difficulty, you're just being obstinant on principle. Nothing wrong with being against the unlock on principle (I am myself) but there's certainly nothing holding you back from quickly getting those few missions outta the way.
voncrapenhauser Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I have to do same missions all over (go there,fetch that,kill him) and I have to grind for credits in Elite Dangerous to buy new ships and better equipment.The game forces me to do it.That sucks.I want to have all spaceships available NOW,I want freedom,I want variety +1 Grinding sux for sure. Its an outdated gaming requisite that no one wants to do. Aggreed variety is the answer. Then it wouldn't feel like a grind. Entirely separate concept. In-game currencies are way different than mandatory XP grinds - you can spend your currencies on any ships or equipment that you want. I am stuck doing Sturzkampf when I want to play my Ju87 with the Bordkanone - I do not have the option of spending the XP I've earned in the 109 to do that. +1 What he said.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea we should suck up the unlocks and grind on to just get it done. -snip- Therefore we should continue to protest their existence with a strong voice. Cheers. I'm right there with you but there came a point for me where I got bored of protesting... Things are not going to change... Zak, Jason, the developer team, the unlocks, the campaign design... None of that is going to change... They don't want it to, they will not hear reason and it seems that for the most part they have no intentions of humoring any of it at all - it sucks, it doesn't make sense from a customer-sat standpoint, it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint... I learned that sooner or later a guy has to appreciate what is there since... It is more or less a large lesson in taking the good with the bad*... For me that came in the form of the Chir Front missions and the skin viewer. *Not that that is a good thing... It is what it is... Edited January 17, 2015 by FalkeEins
LizLemon Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 From the sounds of things Jason has no control over unlocks and the like. It is a shame because he seems to have a much better grasp on pr then the other Russian front does
SharpeXB Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 While you were all complaining I finished unlocking everything this morning. Get over it! Complaining about the unlocks is so 2014... Move on... It's plain most founders were surprised and dismayed by the introduction of the unlocks system (no matter what was supposedly contained in the fine print during development). Your GUI in the Early Access version said "UNLOCKS" just like the current one does. How people were surprised by their inclusion escapes me.
t4trouble Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) While you were all complaining I finished unlocking everything this morning. Get over it! Complaining about the unlocks is so 2014. So how long did it take you ? couple of months ... Move on... Sadly a lot did and still are. Edited January 17, 2015 by t4trouble
-NW-ChiefRedCloud Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I have unlocked all but the last two skins for all the fighters and the IL2 ... and more than half for the Pe-2 and Stuka.. I may do the rest that way... but I have also unlocked all the airfields and actually finished the campaign. I'll send you my account information and you can get busy on my unlocks too ..... ... sorry I could not resist ...... Chief 1
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 While you were all complaining I finished unlocking everything this morning. Get over it! Complaining about the unlocks is so 2014... Move on... Your GUI in the Early Access version said "UNLOCKS" just like the current one does. How people were surprised by their inclusion escapes me. Is there a link to that statement? Also was it ever stated why they want unlocks. A simple question I've asked numerous times with no answer. Like many have said it is what it is but many people would be a little happier with a "why" from them head hunchos.
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 $100 is way over the top for this IMO. I can see the selling point to invest in the future of the sim and why asking more would assist in getting it off the ground. I paid $64 and that's more then it's worth in the current state, especially when you compare to a quality "game" like Arma3 that I think I paid $50 for. Being out of flying sims/games since the 90's the lack of a manual is more frustrating (well maybe not) then the unlocks. I know some have said you don't need the unlocks but I guarantee they don't fly with a "stock" AC They haven't admitted it but, I think it's pretty obvious, it's because of that cheap version of the game where they get two planes to start and have to grind to unlock the rest. It's just a shame they couldn't be bothered to remove that requirement for the people that bought the expensive version.
SharpeXB Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 So how long did it take you ? couple of months Sadly a lot did and still are. I have 45 hours in the campaign and unlocked everything except for the bombers. So ok I didn't do everything. And that's going at it in a regular way and not hurrying.
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I have 45 hours in the campaign and unlocked everything except for the bombers. So ok I didn't do everything. And that's going at it in a regular way and not hurrying. For the love of God, 45 hrs! I know some speed it up but that's not me. I may fly 2-3 hrs a night, twice a week so even though I'd hate to pay anymore into this game, I'd pay to unlock this chit
SharpeXB Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 For the love of God, 45 hrs! I know some speed it up but that's not me. I may fly 2-3 hrs a night, twice a week so even though I'd hate to pay anymore into this game, I'd pay to unlock this chit45 hours is rather average for games in general and for flight sims is nothing. Last time I checked I had as many hours in RoF as Victor Yeats character in Winged Vicotry. About 300
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I understand, but my time is limited. So tonight I'll play Arma3 with my buddies and have fun instead of the bore of unlocks in SP in BoS 45 hours is rather average for games in general and for flight sims is nothing. Last time I checked I had as many hours in RoF as Victor Yeats character in Winged Vicotry. About 300
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 45 hours is rather average for games in general and for flight sims is nothing. Last time I checked I had as many hours in RoF as Victor Yeats character in Winged Vicotry. About 300 Given it is fun, 45 hrs are well invested time for a sim. If it's not it's true pain. I tried the famous "suck it up" approach several times and shut the whole thing down again because the whoel mission deisgn and ai behaviour turned me off (I mean that literally after seing peshkas flying split S's and hunting me).
J2_Trupobaw Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I'll send you my account information and you can get busy on my unlocks too ..... ... sorry I could not resist ...... Chief Yeah, I keep wondering how long will it take before we see "BoS account with all unlocks and tied mail account" for sale for slightly increased price of account itself . In all seriousness, if you or anyone here wants these unlocks and believes you trust me with account information , I keep my own pen and paper notepad and text file SP career mode and don't care which account I'm flying on . See your claims and raise you free unlocks at speed of my flying time. For the love of God, 45 hrs! I know some speed it up but that's not me. I may fly 2-3 hrs a night, twice a week so even though I'd hate to pay anymore into this game, I'd pay to unlock this chit Did I say "free?". Oh crap, I did ...
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Yeah, I keep wondering how long will it take before we see "BoS account with all unlocks and tied mail account" for sale for slightly increased price of account itself . In all seriousness, if you or anyone here wants these unlocks and believes you trust me with account information , I keep my own pen and paper notepad and text file SP career mode and don't care which account I'm flying on . See your claims and raise you free unlocks at speed of my flying time. Did I say "free?". Oh crap, I did ... Yes you did say free, but you get what you pay for lol
SharpeXB Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) $100 is way over the top for this IMO. For 10 planes, $10 per plane is about right for simple system (no click pit) planes. Look at DCS (Flaming Cliffs) they're about the same. Edited January 17, 2015 by SharpeXB
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 DCS you're getting a lot more detailed planes, clickable cockpits but for me it's lacking a true WWII theater map. I feel it's more of a sim then a game as BoS is. If you could mix them both up together that would be a win win for all For 10 planes, $10 per plane is about right for simple system (no click pit) planes. Look at DCS (Flaming Cliffs) they're about the same.
SharpeXB Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 DCS you're getting a lot more detailed planes, clickable cockpits but for me it's lacking a true WWII theater map. I feel it's more of a sim then a game as BoS is. If you could mix them both up together that would be a win win for all DCS has simple system planes like the A-10A and Su-25 for Flaming Cliffs. They don't have clickable cockpits so that's what I'm comparing to BoS.
J2_Trupobaw Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) No, DCS(Flaming Cliffs). The nonclickable planes that DCS was developed from. EDIT:Ninja'd by SharpeXB . Edited January 17, 2015 by Trupobaw
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 DCS has simple system planes like the A-10A and Su-25 for Flaming Cliffs. They don't have clickable cockpits so that's what I'm comparing to BoS. I'm talking WWII craft. Which their not really as focused on as the jets, but that may be turning??
SharpeXB Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I'm talking WWII craft. Which their not really as focused on as the jets, but that may be turning??It would be a good idea for them or a 3rd party to make some simple system WWII planes as well as the full system ones.
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 They already have 3rd parties involved though I'm not confident in seing any major additions for the WW2 part soon. Until than I'll keep my Dora and P-51 in their hangar and watch it grow. Maybe DCS 2.0 can give some more live to the WW2 part, especially MP wise.
CorsairHundo Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 They already have 3rd parties involved though I'm not confident in seing any major additions for the WW2 part soon. Until than I'll keep my Dora and P-51 in their hangar and watch it grow. Maybe DCS 2.0 can give some more live to the WW2 part, especially MP wise. That's why I bought BOS as DCS is limited for the immersion value with WWII. Their both lacking in their own ways
johncage Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 dcs should stick with modern. the ww2 stuff was a lark no one asked for
MiG21bisFishbedL Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Is no one considering that FSX was also $5 for a time? Twice, even? That says a lot more than anything else. It was also featured on the Steam Storefront.
Chuck_Owl Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) dcs should stick with modern. the ww2 stuff was a lark no one asked for Absolute nonsense. Maybe you didn't ask for it, but plenty of people actually did. Personally, I'm enjoying the WWII modules just as much as the modern ones. The upcoming Normandy map will give us a WWII map and VEAO is also working on a Tobruk one. Edited January 19, 2015 by 71st_AH_Chuck
Original_Uwe Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 dcs should stick with modern. the ww2 stuff was a lark no one asked for Bite your lying toung!
Brano Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 RS rockets (smaller 82mm) were originaly planned to be used on fighters as air to air weapon to combat bombers.In old sturm there was possibility to set fuse on rockets in seconds.So if you knew how far will rocket fly per sec you could adjust timer for lets say 2 or 3 secs and get down bomber by puting yourself in correct distance behind enemy.Here in BoS IIRC there are only 2 settings possible for RS=100m or 600m.That does not give you much tactical freedom. There was even modification of Pe2 with rockets (pair?) pointing backwards as defensive weapon against fighters
Brano Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'd say a succesful Kickstarter campaign was proof that lots of people did ask. It depends.Is 2553 a lot?Not in my world.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 2553 people is more people is more than no people or "nobody" Right? I wonder how many people purchased/are flying BOS. I certainly doubt that it's much more than 2553 (if that...)
Bearcat Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea we should suck up the unlocks and grind on to just get it done. It's plain most founders were surprised and dismayed by the introduction of the unlocks system (no matter what was supposedly contained in the fine print during development). It's also plain most players don't want unlocks. Therefore we should continue to protest their existence with a strong voice. Cheers. That of course is your opinion but at the moment.. being realistic those are our two options, either get it done .. or don't. Because of the fact that it is quite clear to everyone who has the slightest interest in BoS that the unlocks are not a good thing as far as the majority of the community goes, just what good do you think continued protest will do? I am well aware of the fact that just because I think it is a moot point by now and we just need to see if common sense ever takes hold on this issue.. regardless to what has been said to the contrary.. that the protests will not stop... but they will be controlled. At this point we can't have dozens of threads all over the place dealing with the same issue. I'm right there with you but there came a point for me where I got bored of protesting... Things are not going to change... Zak, Jason, the developer team, the unlocks, the campaign design... None of that is going to change... They don't want it to, they will not hear reason and it seems that for the most part they have no intentions of humoring any of it at all - it sucks, it doesn't make sense from a customer-sat standpoint, it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint... I learned that sooner or later a guy has to appreciate what is there since... It is more or less a large lesson in taking the good with the bad*... For me that came in the form of the Chir Front missions and the skin viewer. *Not that that is a good thing... It is what it is... That is exactly my take on it and has been all along. I also believe that once the ME is released and users can start to make missions that aspect of BoS will blow through the roof.. so I want to be ready by unlocking all this stuff now... I hate it but it is what it is. Life has taught me to keep a bag of sugar around for those times when I need to make some lemonade and this is one of those times. (For those non English speaking persons who may not know what I mean by that.. we have a saying... When life deals you lemons make lemonade.. meaning when things don't go as you hoped .. work with what you have and do what you can and move on..) I had stopped even flying BoS for a while there after the next to last controls reset.. I got tired of having to do that over and over.. then when the unlocks came out I was busy as all get out and just doid not have the time to even mess with it. I was MIA for a bit and when I got back here the SS was in full swing. I was upset about it too... but sitting there not using a product I spent $90 just seemed silly to me.. so I looked around rolled up my sleeves and got busy. That ... at least in my opinion is a better option than doing nothing. My goal is not to do the campaign so I can be wowed by it.. it is to just get it done so I can fully use the sim. From the sounds of things Jason has no control over unlocks and the like. It is a shame because he seems to have a much better grasp on pr then the other Russian front does I agree... Jason is an old time simmer from IL2 and he knows this community because he has been a part of it for a long time. I have 45 hours in the campaign and unlocked everything except for the bombers. So ok I didn't do everything. And that's going at it in a regular way and not hurrying. Well I have 74 hours and I am at a P9 level.. I have unlocked everything (all the bases) but the last two skins for all the fighters save the F4.. that one is completely unlocked, and also all but the last two skins for the IL2 and Pe-2. I still have about half way on the Stuka.. and 2/3 on the He-11.. Once I get the last of the mod unlocks for all the aircraft I will go back and unlock the rest.. but I used Normal mode.. and in the beginning I just let the PC do it.. then I started 2xng to the actin point .. go to real time do the fight and get out of dodge till I get to the exit point then 2x home from there because sometimes the AI will return and get killed. I will probably never even fly a Stuka, He-111, IL2 or a Pe-2 ... but I want to get all that is there. It should have been there.. it wasn't.. Disappointed? You bet... but IMO when you have a different situation than you expected and you still have some modicum of control over it the better choice is to use that control to get closer to what you want if possible.. rather than just protesting that it is not there. dcs should stick with modern. the ww2 stuff was a lark no one asked for I beg to differ. I know I was pretty stoked when the P-51 was released.. Any real simmer worth his joystick would want to see as many well done sims as possible. As Chuck also said all those people who kicked into the DCS WWII thing also wanted a WWII sim under DCS. 1
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Not only the ones participating in kickstarter if I may add. I wasn't really interested in it too until getting the P-51 some tim ago. It indeed was an eye opener and showed what WW2 aircraft might feel like in a nice DCS like second world war flight sim, which I liked quite a lot. Unfortunately we're still pretty far away from it. With DCS WWII (1944 Battle of the Normandy) development being shut down it all lays in ED's hands to finish it. Slowly and pacefully, but I'll sure keep tracking their progress with interest. And yea the unlocks don't upset me the way they're implemented because I have to "earn" them, but because of the way they're implemented and the dev's responses to it. With most of the stuff unlocked I need I don't dare to touch the campaign again until stuff is fixed. It's just mad to launch the game because you want to fly and have fun, shoot up the campaign and totally hate the game after 2 missions because of lacking mission design and demented Ais. MP/Cooperative campaign would be a much better way to go. Edited January 20, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka
Brano Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Right? I wonder how many people purchased/are flying BOS. I certainly doubt that it's much more than 2553 (if that...) 14191 with Founder tag 37560 total registered members 1
Chuck_Owl Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) And Goat Simulator was bought by 100,000 people in the first 6 days for mobile release. Your point is? DCS is a niche market inside a niche market. Ask anyone "hey dude would you like to read a 200-pages-long manual to fly a plane?" and see what their answer is. Some people might appreciate the simplicity of starting an aircraft after a single button push... but personally I need more than that to keep me entertained. Edited January 20, 2015 by 71st_AH_Chuck
FS_Fenice_1965 Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Any real simmer worth his joystick would want to see as many well done sims as possible. This is a thing I've heard a lot of times in different forms (many sims, more competition, better products etc......), but personally and humbly I do not agree totally. I've already posted a similar opinion in another thread. We have to consider that wwii combat flight sims hold a niche market. Fragmentation limits resources of the developers and leads to empty servers in multiplayer. Also limits the amount of contribution from the community with new contents etc... IL2 1946 was the sim able to convey all players under one roof and was, in the same time, able to satisfy different cathegories of simmers. I remember Oleg summing up the nature of his sim saying "easy to handle... hard to master...". IL2 was able to convey every kind of simmer under his wing. The quantity of buyers was enough to allow development able to satisfy the creativity of a large variety of players. All were flying IL2 in different forms, all were part in the end of the same community and all were able to switch from a variety to another. Servers reflected that variety. You had open cockpit, closed cockpit, intermediate, full real, racing servers etc....Players started flying in a way and ended flying in another...open pit, full real etc. Back and forth...And if they were bored starting in a way (full real) they could go back flying with less demanding settings and eventually start again flying full real... at will. The servers offered every combination of settings and was easy to find the desired ones.... And developers had the crowd and the money to satisfy all these cathegories. Actually community is divided.....CLOD, DCS WWII, BOS .....none of these sims is able to hold the crown and we, as simmers, are not going to experience again that sense of belonging to such a large world with such a large amount of people. Look at CLOD .....just two servers reasonably full and they are both full real......casual simmers have no choices, because the rest is desert...... Situation is not largely different here in BOS, there's a gap too wide between "normal" servers and full real. Inserting more difficult options is not a solution because the community is not enough populated to allow variety and crowded servers in the same time.... Obviously this involves mainly multiplayer but to a certain extent may involve also single player. A divided community limits the resources of every developer....both in single player and in multiplayer Just my 2 cents Edited January 20, 2015 by FS_Fenice_1965 1
Brano Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 And Goat Simulator was bought by 100,000 people in the first 6 days for mobile release. Your point is? Point is that 14191 Founders in BoS is more then 2553 in DCS:WW2 Kickstarter.Nothing less,nothing more.Just facts and datas.
t4trouble Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Point is that 14191 Founders in BoS is more then 2553 in DCS:WW2 Kickstarter.Nothing less,nothing more.Just facts and datas. How many of those founders still play ?
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