Simply Can't Take Off

[gporto]

I posted this on Steam as well, since I have the Steam version. I don't know how well that forum is attended. I am on mission 3 of the campaign. It is the first one requiring a take off. Every time I apply even slow throttle, the plane veers right a lot. I have tried Left Shift G to lock the tail wheel, but that doesn't do anything. I have also tried / to unlock any brakes that might be set. Neither of these yield any results. I have removed my joystick and am only using the keyboard to eliminate a joystick issue. This is a severe turn to the right. I have tried rudder to counter the turn, but it is simply to severe. I fly FSX all the time with no issues. Granted, we're talking Russian Fighters, not Cessna 172's.

 

Can anyone shed any light on what is going on? I'm ready to give up on this game. Very frustrating.

 

Thanks.

 

[No601_Swallow]

For me, personally, the Lagg is the most difficult plane to take off and land, because you can't lock its tail wheel.

 

I think what might be a good idea is for you to put the campaign to one side for an hour or two, and instead go to the Quick Mission Builder.

 

1) Pick the Yak.

2) Pick the single flight icon somewhere on the map.

3) Under the options pick start on runway (or similar).

4) Check your key assignments, and make sure you know which key locks the Yak's tailwheel.

5) Practice taking off in the Yak. Use a bit of rudder to keep on the runway, feel the speed building, gently raise the tail and at 170-180 kmh, gently gently gently pull back and get into the air.

 

I might have got the order of some of the steps wrong, but you get the idea. Hopefully!

 

Once you can do it in the Yak, I think that's half the battle. Then you can go back to the Lagg in the campaign with renewed vim and vigour!!!

Good luck! It's just practice really.

 

Edit: Sorry, I didn't read the bit where you explained you have no problems in FSX. Obviously, I don't need to explain how to take off (in general) to you. But I think the lack of tailwheel lock in the Lagg does make it overly difficult to control on take-off and landing. When you land, get ready to meet my good friend, Mr G. Loop...

Edited January 10, 2015 by No601_Swallow

[216th_Peterla]

Hi mate,

Go to Quick mission editor and set a mission starting on the runaway with the same plane. If you are using a joy stick go to external view(f2 by defect) and check if the control surfaces move as per your inputs.

Let me know what happens.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Which plane? I'm assuming the 109. Do you have rudder pedals or a twist stick? Most of the aircraft will pull one way or another and you simply have to compensate the opposite direction. If we can hook up some night in our Basic Training server online and in TeamSpeak I'll be glad to help where I can.

 

Chief

Edited January 10, 2015 by -NW-ChiefRedCloud

[Porkman]

Hi, check out some of the responses in the following threads.  They have some great advice for getting started, some recommended settings and general flying tips.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13705-novice-advice/

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13844-total-bos-noob-reporting-duty/

 

 

Biggest thing that will probably help you is putting 50% curve on your pitch, roll, and yaw axis.  Also you can always put the plane on autopilot and watch how the AI takes off, watch the stick and rudder to see how they are doing it.  You need a lot of opposite rudder when you first get rolling, then gently let off to hold nose straight during acceleration.

[SAG]

maybe youre forgetting to set prop, mix and throttle appropiately? 

 

i dont think  its an input issue, but more a "not being used to" getting pulled to a side by the tourque effect of the spinner

[33lima]

The BoS LaGG isn't an aeroplane, it's a spinning top with wings Same with the 190 for me so far.

 

All I'd suggest is;

 

- consider flying a campaign as short duration missions - air starts - so you can have most of the fun without the ground handling headache.

 

- if and when you really want to takeoff and land, pick a plane that's not too bad - the Yak as suggested is a good choice - and practice, practice, practice in Quick Missions with whatever hardware setup you have, until you are proficient. Then and only then, try takeoffs with a more difficult plane.

 

I suspect it may be easier if you have rudder pedals with progressive toe brakes but with just a twisty joystick and keyboard for brakes - which I guess means brakes are either full on or full off, so will need tapping to get close to a progressive effect - takeoffs in BoS are I think inordinately hard. With such basic kit I find it very hard to obtain and maintain just the right amount of braking and then ease that off and replace it with just the right amount of rudder when the tail comes up, then easing off rudder too as speed builds up. It may be a placebo effect but I find that holding the tail down with the stick back, while maintaining about 20-30 degrees opposite rudder (oppopsite to the initial direction of swing) as I gradually open the throttle seems to help, not just with the 190 whose tailwheel that locks. I start holding down then tapping the opposite brake as soon the plane begins to swing then the left rudder I've been holding on starts to take over as the speed builds up.

 

I'm finding that here is some satisfaction from mastering it for each plane you decide to learn, but I still think they have made it too difficult for a basic twisty joystick and keyboard setup. Change planes and you have to unlearn and relearn over again.

[Y-29.Silky]

Lower the prop pitch, push your stick forward, apply opposite rudder, and tap the brakes once or twice. But pushing your stick forward I've learned helps a lot.

[JohnHardtack]

I am new to this sim and love many things about it. Having said that, I am also finding the LaGG-3 incredibly hard to land and almost as hard to take off. Here's my take so far:

 

1. If you are in Normal flight mode, all engine management decisions are made for you.
2. However, if you are flying Expert, then you are required to include these in your Pre-Take Off checklist: Prop Pitch Coarse to Fine, Mixture Lean to Rich, Water and Oil Rads set as per guages.
3. I find on takeoff, a very slow increase in throttle accompanied by ever increasing left rudder to be best (counter-acting engine torque). Full throttle only once speed is fast enough to give the rudder authority, generally mid runway for me. More often than not, I make it safely into the skies after careening down the runway like a drunken sailor.
4. Landing is another story. I've watched Requiem's training video and done everything in my power to follow correct glideslope, correct approach speeds (200 kph) and touchdown speed (180 kph), proper flare and sink rate. Still, as soon as the wheels touch, the A/C bounds up as if there are giant springs in the undercarriage and multiple bounces ensue. Eventually, I make it to the end of the landing run with back pressure on the stick to plant the tail-wheel firmly on the ground, all the while applying judicious braking. The inevitable ground loop at the end is followed by my leaping out to kiss the tarmac. I really think the devs need to tweak the physics here. I base this on years of experience IRL flying as an IFR rated pilot in my own twin engine a/c. I know how to grease landings time after time.

If someone here has mastered perfect landings and roll-outs in the LaGG-3, I'd appreciate some pointers too.

[Willy__]

Dont forget that the LaGG doesnt have a tailwheel lock mechanism, which makes landings and take-off a bit of an adventure! But its doable. 

 

Some tips for take-offs with the LaGG:

Line up with the runaway, open up radiators, deploy flaps, set prop pitch and mixture to 100% and press and hold the brakes. Now slowly start adding throttle; when youre about 50-75%, maybe even 80-90% throttle (test and see which value is best for you), realease the brakes, it should help a bit. Also, try to be gentle on the rudder inputs to stay on the runaway. Dont forget to put throttle to max after you have good control on the plane. Its not an orthodox way of taking off, but works, mainly for people that is starting in flight sims and dont have rudder pedals or the twist on the stick.

Edited January 10, 2015 by istruba

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Go in QMB pick the Lagg start at runway. 100% pitch and mix. Full left rudder, add power slowly never kick right rudder(over correct) but adjust by letting off left rudder a bit to keep it straight. get the tail up soon as you can while adding power all the while. Continue with the left rudder corrections until its up and at speed.

Works for me. 

[Sokol1]

I don't use this "lock tail wheel" (and don't have that Fw(UFO) 190  ) or other "Merlin formula" and don't have problem to takeoff.

 

Before start increase throttle I press the rudder all for right (or left depend on plane) and start increase throttle, instead go for "torque" side the plane tend go for the rudder pressed side,

so I relief the rudder a bit and increase the throttle to 100% keeping straight with minor corrections at the rudder. That's all.

 

In Bf 109 no stick use is need, after get speed be just touch the trim button (can be for nose heavy   ) the plane start climb like a helium balloon. "Auto takeoff" feature. 

 

But this game need a rudder pedal, with keyboard is very hard do the necessary rudder control.

[gporto]

Hey Guys. Thank you for all the helpful comments. Based on reading all your advice, here's what I have concluded...

 

1. I'm not crazy and it's simply lots of practice to get this right, especially in the LaGG-3. I did try the Yak and it is much easier. An observation, why put the training missions (which is what the first campaign missions basically are) in such a tough plane to take off in?

2. I didn't know the LaGG did not have a tail wheel lock. Now I know why RShft G didn't work. Would have been a big help to me and the Soviet pilots that flew the plane.

2. I am using normal settings, which obviously can get me in some trouble, but I can use the help on some settings right now.

3. In the LAGG, I start out with full rudder left to compensate for the turn. I also, as someone suggested, push the stick in, which lowers the flaps and, I guess, produces some drag to start out.

4. I don't believe the LaGG-3 has prop control. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I got off the ground, but it wasn't pretty.

 

I'll keep practicing. It's encouraging to know it wasn't just me.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

The Lagg is a dumptruck to fly, hard to handle but after awhile practicing with it you will get the hang of it and will be able to take off like an old pro. Landing is well another story 

[No601_Swallow]

gporto, on 10 Jan 2015 - 20:56, said:

Hey Guys. Thank you for all the helpful comments. Based on reading all your advice, here's what I have concluded...

 

1. I'm not crazy and it's simply lots of practice to get this right, especially in the LaGG-3. I did try the Yak and it is much easier. An observation, why put the training missions (which is what the first campaign missions basically are) in such a tough plane to take off in?

2. I didn't know the LaGG did not have a tail wheel lock. Now I know why RShft G didn't work. Would have been a big help to me and the Soviet pilots that flew the plane. 

2. I am using normal settings, which obviously can get me in some trouble, but I can use the help on some settings right now.

3. In the LAGG, I start out with full rudder left to compensate for the turn. I also, as someone suggested, push the stick in, which lowers the flaps and, I guess, produces some drag to start out.

4. I don't believe the LaGG-3 has prop control. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I got off the ground, but it wasn't pretty.

 

I'll keep practicing...

 

 Welcome to the wonderful world of "interesting" BoS design decisions!

 

(The Lagg does have variable prop pitch, so I keep it at max revs (I always get the terms mixed up) for take-off and landing. If you're not able to control prop pitch,.it's maybe because you're playing on Normal difficulty? If so, and you want complex engine management, the three engine aids can be turned off, but you need to assign keys to do so (I put them all on one key, so I can nix them all at a stroke (but still maintain the ability to "cheat" whenever I want! )

Edited January 10, 2015 by No601_Swallow

[SharpeXB]

Don't tap the brakes while taking off. Hold the stick full back until you pick up enough speed. Start the roll with nearly full rudder input and then stay straight as required.

[361fundahl]

Dude it is easy..... Full throttle and keep your motor mounts to one side only letting off a bit did you start you over correct and keep some force down words on your stick keep the elevators pressing the wheel to the ground slightly until you are at speed

Trying to type and rivd I'll edit in a sec

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

The LaGG-3 is the best aircraft EVER.  OK maybe not.  Maybe I just like a challenge but I like it a lot. 

[Finkeren]

I don't get why people would bash the LaGG for it's behavior in take off or landing. Apart from the tendency to bounce on touchdown it's pretty damn docile (at least compared to how it was in the earliest stages of development) Use a bit of flaps on take off and fly her gently off the field. Land her as you would any other fighter but remember to keep rate of descend low and airspeed sufficient so you don't 'drop' her onto the runway and get a bounce. There's really nothing more to it than that.

 

It's litterally been months since I last botched a landing with the LaGG, which is more than I can say for most of the other planes, and the LaGG is my favourite fighter.

[Guest deleted@30725]

You'll get it. When I first got this game I thought my joystick was broken, but soon found it takes time to get used to the dynamics of prop planes. I find the Russian planes far easier to land than the 109s with the narrow landing gear and tendency to fall onto their wings if you don't line up perfectly. I find them all as equally challenging to take off. Just a case of catching the spin with the rudder and holding it. I find I can leave the stick pretty much alone and like to use the whole runway to get plenty of speed to save any embarrassing stall crashes over the airfield. 

 

I've grown to love the Russian planes with their barn door simplicity and no frills cockpits.

[BzKBravoZulu]

I figured out your problem...

 

There is only one condition where the Lagg becomes completely unable to take-off

and that is when your prop pitch is completely opposite to where it should be.

 

When you change prop pitch, the little info bars on the right hand side of the screen

should say - First engine prop pitch 100%

 

If that figure is at 0% or set too low you'll have all the torque effect of the engine yawing

the plane to the right... With none of the power. It is near impossible to keep it rolling

straight in this configuration.

 

If you have switched off the on-screen info bars then you can physically check to see

if the prop pitch is where it should be - it is the wooden handled lever on your left below

the throttle (it looks very similar to the throttle) The prop pitch lever should be at its furthest

point away from you (ie pushed forward)

 

Then take-off as normal, I think you'll be surprised just how easy the Lagg is to take off.

Full power, a bit of left rudder, keep wings level and Bob's your aunty.

 

Hope this helps

Zulu

[361fundahl]

full power and a bit of rudder is pretty much every plane from me lol

[pencon]

On the Russian planes tap the brake while using the rudder when its starts going around and the rudder alone can't handle the torque . On the German fighters go into controls , set up a separate key for left brake and right brake . Use these when on the takeoff run , especially with the FW 190 . On my Keybord I have set B for basic brakes , then N for left brake and M for right brake . Usually when taking off the torque on the German planes is opposite , so full right rudder acompanied with a few presses on M for right brake while pulling all the way back on elevator to lock the tailwheel . Then then use a few taps to keep the plane in line while gradually easing up on the rudder and at about 110 kmh ease up on the elevator and let the tail come up etc.... doesn't hurt to use the takeoff flaps either . Don't know if you're using a joystick or not , but if you don't have one yet , think about looking through ebay for a Microsoft ford feedback pro 2 . Works really well with this game and offers way more feel than the other numb forcefeedbackless brands .This joystick will have some tension at the stick when your hand gets a grip it firms up , and gets harder to move the faster the plane goes , then when you go into a stall the firmness lets go and the stick goes weak . Awesome feel , so glad I found this classic relic Joystick for simming .

Edited January 11, 2015 by 6969pencon

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Dude it is easy..... Full throttle and keep your motor mounts to one side only letting off a bit did you start you over correct and keep some force down words on your stick keep the elevators pressing the wheel to the ground slightly until you are at speed

Trying to type and rivd I'll edit in a sec

um... ok, huh?

[gporto]

I'm blown away by the amount of help I received from the group. It's a dumb newbie question, but everyone was very helpful. The propellor pitch is auto at normal difficulty, so that's why I couldn't control it. So, it's not the pitch being set 'wrong'. I'm getting it. Who knew it could be so challenging to take off? It's a snap in FSX!

 

I appreciate the input and I'll reach out to the group if I get stuck again. The lack of a true tutorial makes it a bit daunting to people just getting into the series, like me!

[BlackDevil]

If someone here has mastered perfect landings and roll-outs in the LaGG-3, I'd appreciate some pointers too.

Touchdown after stick is fully back ! It will not bounce at all.

[JohnHardtack]

Happy News! After completing the obligatory training circuits, I have mastered gained some proficiency with the LaGG-3. One major hurdle was optics. I found the lack of visual cues to be challenging. Flares done too late have now been corrected to the proper height above runway. Some YouTube video on taildraggers was also helpful.

 

I know that I risk the wrath of all the haters in stating the following but I'm entitled to my opinion. There is absolutely no excuse not to create a manual for a commercially available software product that is presented to the public as a "Release". How does one expect people who are new to this genre to get their feet wet without becoming so discouraged that they give up. This thread is proof of that. The manual doesn't have to be a thousand page opus. It can be a work in progress but it needs to cover the basics rather than force people to spend hours poring over the forums to try and figure out basic game fundamentals. I salute 1C and 777 on a beautiful creation, but they can't expect new customers (at the end of the day, we are all customers) to absorb complex game fundamentals through osmosis or some mysterious psychic force.

[SharpeXB]

On the Russian planes tap the brake while using the rudder when its starts going around and the rudder alone can't handle the torque . On the German fighters go into controls , set up a separate key for left brake and right brake . Use these when on the takeoff run , especially with the FW 190 . On my Keybord I have set B for basic brakes , then N for left brake and M for right brake . Usually when taking off the torque on the German planes is opposite , so full right rudder acompanied with a few presses on M for right brake while pulling all the way back on elevator to lock the tailwheel . Then then use a few taps to keep the plane in line while gradually easing up on the rudder and at about 110 kmh ease up on the elevator and let the tail come up etc.... doesn't hurt to use the takeoff flaps either . Don't know if you're using a joystick or not , but if you don't have one yet , think about looking through ebay for a Microsoft ford feedback pro 2 . Works really well with this game and offers way more feel than the other numb forcefeedbackless brands .This joystick will have some tension at the stick when your hand gets a grip it firms up , and gets harder to move the faster the plane goes , then when you go into a stall the firmness lets go and the stick goes weak . Awesome feel , so glad I found this classic relic Joystick for simming .

Typically the brakes are not used to steer on takeoff. Just hold the stick full back to keep the tail down and to lock the tail wheel on some planes. Use the rudder to keep straight on the runway. Edited January 11, 2015 by SharpeXB

[CorsairHundo]

I lurked around the forums for a few months before purchasing when it went on sale. The lack of a manual or at least something to get you somewhat acquainted would be nice. There's some nice things I already like about this BoS but it already consumes a lot of time doing missions you'd rather not have to get unlocks, then you have to search the forums or web to figure out stuff. Between BOS and DCS their both missing stuff, maybe they need to combine their efforts

 

 

 

Happy News! After completing the obligatory training circuits, I have mastered gained some proficiency with the LaGG-3. One major hurdle was optics. I found the lack of visual cues to be challenging. Flares done too late have now been corrected to the proper height above runway. Some YouTube video on taildraggers was also helpful.

 

I know that I risk the wrath of all the haters in stating the following but I'm entitled to my opinion. There is absolutely no excuse not to create a manual for a commercially available software product that is presented to the public as a "Release". How does one expect people who are new to this genre to get their feet wet without becoming so discouraged that they give up. This thread is proof of that. The manual doesn't have to be a thousand page opus. It can be a work in progress but it needs to cover the basics rather than force people to spend hours poring over the forums to try and figure out basic game fundamentals. I salute 1C and 777 on a beautiful creation, but they can't expect new customers (at the end of the day, we are all customers) to absorb complex game fundamentals through osmosis or some mysterious psychic force.

[pencon]

Typically the brakes are not used to steer on takeoff. Just hold the stick full back to keep the tail down and to lock the tail wheel on some planes. Use the rudder to keep straight on the runway.

I hardly use the brakes on takeoff with the Russian planes , I was saying IF the aircraft torques too much then save it with a tap or two of brakes . On the german aircraft particularly the FW the rudder alone doesn't seem to handle the torque especially if you go wide open from a stand still ( which I like to do ) Edited January 11, 2015 by 6969pencon

[SharpeXB]

I hardly use the brakes on takeoff with the Russian planes , I was saying IF the aircraft torques too much then save it with a tap or two of brakes . On the german aircraft particularly the FW the rudder alone doesn't seem to handle the torque especially if you go wide open from a stand still ( which I like to do )

Practice with the rudder, you won't need the brakes.

[CorsairHundo]

 

I'm not a RL pilot but I doubt that happens in RL. Plus you would probably warp the brakes or burn them up

 

Practice with the rudder, you won't need the brakes.

[JohnHardtack]

IRL you steer the a/c with rudder pedals along with throttle input. Brakes are used if necessary along taxiways. Once rollout is started for takeoff, brakes are not used except when retracting the gear (a 2 sec mash) to stop spinning wheels from tucking into a housing. Pilots are especially mindful of crosswind when taxiing. If the crosswind has a headwind component, then turn the ailerons to "turn into" the wind. If the crosswind has a tailwind component, then turn the ailerons to "dive away from" the wind. This is done to reduce the tendency of the a/c to ground loop.. BoS models these issues well.

[SharpeXB]

These are always good to watch

 

http://youtu.be/-EkDogEDfJU

[BlackDevil]

IRL you steer the a/c with rudder pedals along with throttle input. Brakes are used if necessary along taxiways. Once rollout is started for takeoff, brakes are not used except when retracting the gear (a 2 sec mash) to stop spinning wheels from tucking into a housing. ...

109 did need brakes at beginning of take off roll. That was the reason for many severe ground loops at full power to the right, when too much brake was used by unexperienced pilots.

Edited January 12, 2015 by BlackDevil

[StG2_Manfred]

109 did need brakes at beginning of take off roll. That was the reason for many severe ground loops at full power to the right, when too much brake was used by unexperienced pilots.

 

Source???

 

The following pic is from the so called "Exerzier-Karte" of the 109 G, it is or better was an official document for German pilots. The only part where breaking is mentioned is after take off, when the landing gear is going to be retracted.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2015 by StG2_Manfred