Help with dogfighting

[TheJay13]

So I got this game a few days ago. I've been out of flight sims for a while and I figured that this would be a good sim to get back into it. So far I've been fairly frustrated trying to shoot down AI fighters. It seems like even the lonley lagg 3 is capable of matchin my bf-109 in a turn and I always end up with a series of either head ons or very high deflection shots that are near impossible to make. Is this just over performing AI or du I just suck ass. And yes I am using energy fighting tactics (which I shouldn't have to seeing how the lagg is such a poor performer) yet the lagg still seems capable of evading every attack.

[TheElf]

Hmm.  This is a big topic.  Hard to help with dog fighting in a forum.  I'll say this:  This is not a simple idea, and the AI isn't the best measure of a true opponent.  You SHOULD be able to take advantage of the AI, but I suppose it depends on your experience level and the setting you have AI on, and the initial parameters you have set for the quick mission.  From a neutral start, you should be able to wear down even a LaGG-3 set to ACE after a few series of merges.  The thing to remember is avoid the Head on with the AI as even the Novice AI pilots can get a bead on you in a head on if given enough time.  I generally avoid head-ons in all but the most favorable settings.  They are deadly for all involved.

 

Try this:

 

1.  Set up your starting parameters against a Novice AI Lagg-3.  Just one to start.  Give yourself around 1000-2000m of altitude advantage and work on your energy management.  Don't necessarily fire unless you have sufficiently beat your opponent down and are completely offensive, or it looks like you are being equalized by your AI opponent.  Once you feel confident against an AI Novice LaGG, begin to reduce your initial altitude advantage until you are co altitude at the start.  Then go up a level in AI skill and start with the original altitude advantage.  Rinse repeat until you have mastered an ACE LaGG.

 

Realize this:

 

2.  When flown by a competent pilot the LaGG is no pushover.  Especially if the 109 pilot is overconfident, lax, or inattentive.  You have to respect all the Russian planes.  Even the LaGG.  If it is flown by a masterful Pilot the LaGG can be quite deadly.

 

Remember this:

 

3.  Treat your plane gently.  Hamfisting and a "Lift-vector-on, PULL" mentality is no way to go through life.  You need to finesse and fly a centered ball and keep your energy up.  Counter your opponents moves with moves of your own but DO NOT bleed off all your airspeed unless you are sure your opponent is equally bled down or else you are gambling that your energy excursion for guns solution isn't going to miss and he won't be able to reverse, force an in close overshoot, or snap shot you in return.

 

4.  For the 109 I find 300kph to be the bottom of the Rate band, if you are turning harder than that in the horizontal, then you are losing the energy battle (bleeding airspeed), and should consider something else or use flaps to help.  10-20% flaps I find are best as a turn enhancer without compromising too much energy loss.  If you energy state is 400+ kmh pull til you hear the low rumble of the wing which indicates a max lift aerodynamic state for your crate at the given Airspeed.  If the low rumble gets loud or erratic you are pulling past the aerodynamic harmony you are in and headed toward a stall and certain energy deficit. 

 

5.  300 kmh is min-vertical airspeed.  You can go up into a full Immelman from 300 kmh using full power, balanced flight, and a little flap at the top.

 

6.  When ever you are not being threatened by your opponents nose, unload and take the opportunity to ADD energy.

 

7.  Most of all be patient.  Dog-fighting can be a waiting game.  Fly a conservative airplane, but don't give too much up to an aggressive opponent, and try to get him to make the first mistake.

 

Look into this: 

 

8.  Lead, lag, and pure pursuit curves.  Most people use pure pursuit and then pull lead when they think they have a shot.  Savvy pilots realize Lag pursuit is what will allow you to gain entry into an opponent's control zone where tracking guns solutions become available.  Everything else is Hi aspect or snap shot guns which lead to overshoots.  If you don't have the energy to go up and out climb him after one of these overshoots, you are going to get gunned if you miss these low percentage gun attacks.

 

Look me up on TS3 in the Synidicate Server and if you find me we can go to a duel server and I' demo this stuff for you.

 

S! and happy hunting

 

~Elf

Edited January 7, 2015 by TheElf

[ACG_Smokejumper]

I've been messing around in the normal dogfight server. I prefer hardcore SIM but they are great practice. I'm going to keep joining them to improve my skills.

[TheJay13]

Thank you for the response. I feel I should have clarified that I can defeat the AI it just seems like it is taking an inordinate amount of time and ammunition to down him. I watched an older requiem vid about bnz and he advises that you maintain low horizontal separation which I try to do but it seems like my opponent is always able to gain distance on me. I suspect that this has to do with the fact that I am not able to actually bounce the AI as he automatically is aware of my position resulting in the series of merges. I suspect that my shooting needs work as to me at least, the rounds feel abnormally slow and heavy, more so than other sims I've played or watched.

Edited January 7, 2015 by TheJay13

[Deltahawkoz]

Hi 

Interesting thread. I am mainly an offliner, fly mainly the LAGG 3 out some form of masochistic delight.  I generally prefer the Russian  birds as they are an interesting mix. It seems the AI 109s only have to get me in their sights for an instant from all aspects and I am toast.  So any tips on getting the most out a Lagg 3 most appreciated. My current strategy is thus. Never try and fight a 109 in the vertical. I generally keep my nose on the horizon or below it. And keep my speed as high as possible. Below 320 kms or thereabouts the Lagg seems to behave like dog ( excuse me all canine lovers, I am one my self).  Nice notes TheElf.  Any one like to chime in with some Lagg 3 specific tips?

 

Cheers

[TheElf]

Thank you for the response. I feel I should have clarified that I can defeat the AI it just seems like it is taking an inordinate amount of time and ammunition to down him. I watched an older requiem vid about bnz and he advises that you maintain low horizontal separation which I try to do but it seems like my opponent is always able to gain distance on me. I suspect that this has to do with the fact that I am not able to actually bounce the AI as he automatically is aware of my position resulting in the series of merges. I suspect that my shooting needs work as to me at least, the rounds feel abnormally slow and heavy, more so than other sims I've played or watched.

 

 

That's ok Jay, I think I get it.  Everything I said still stands.  One thing I noticed is that experience from other sims, or even real life absolutely translates to BoS.  But there IS an adjustment period.  I find even after being a part of early access since it began until today and accumulating hundreds of hours in all the aircraft that after a lengthy break from flying I still have to regain my proficiency.  Given equally skilled pilots, force one to take a 4 week break and allow the other to fly every day for a month and then have them fight on equal terms.  The more proficient pilot will generally win out over the non-proficient pilot.  You just need to settle into this sim and work things out for yourself.  You might master the 109 in a couple sessions and then jump into an FW and find yourself at square one.  That is what happened to me.  So I forced myself to relearn the hard lessons of the FW, and now I am very confident, even in a one vs. many situation given certain conditions...

 

It took me a while to apply what I knew to be true about air combat to this sim and for it to eventually feel right and begin to show dividends.  Gunnery ultimately makes the difference.  Given one shot, if you hit 90% of the time, you will be way ahead of the power curve.  Multip[le shots missed eats into your overall energy package, and chips away at your situational awareness.  Time to kill, is a major factor, especially in multiplayer.

 

What Requiem says about BnZ is true, but ultimately it boils down to having an altitude delta.  Staying directly above your opponent is important, but attacking from directly above results in a vertical overshoot.  I personally do want some horizontal separation, but you also need a cooperative bandit.  If he continually ditches and avoids your attack by diving you are only being dragged down.  You need to be able to assess when your attack is too steep and if his defense will result in a poor low percentage shot.  If it looks bad don't press, climb and look to re-attack under more favorable conditions.  It is VERY difficult to keep track of someone above you in this game, though the AI probably does have a 6th sense about this so your suspicion is probably true.  This will eventually work in your favor if you are patient as somethign will distract your opponent or he will lose sight.

[TheElf]

Hi 

Interesting thread. I am mainly an offliner, fly mainly the LAGG 3 out some form of masochistic delight.  I generally prefer the Russian  birds as they are an interesting mix. It seems the AI 109s only have to get me in their sights for an instant from all aspects and I am toast.  So any tips on getting the most out a Lagg 3 most appreciated. My current strategy is thus. Never try and fight a 109 in the vertical. I generally keep my nose on the horizon or below it. And keep my speed as high as possible. Below 320 kms or thereabouts the Lagg seems to behave like dog ( excuse me all canine lovers, I am one my self).  Nice notes TheElf.  Any one like to chime in with some Lagg 3 specific tips?

 

Cheers

 

The LaGG is a fun plane.  I flew it almost exclusively online in the MP servers during the early days of early access. With an altitude advantage you can be very effective.  It has great armament and is a stable gun platform.  It now also dives well and has good high top speed out of a dive to the Deck.  It suffers greatly above 4km, and is true handful in terms of pilot work load (assuming expert settings).  It CAN out turn a 109 but only for a short time and with heavy use of flaps, at great sacrifice of your airspeed.  One of it's few advantages is that the flaps program faster than the 109. So popping flaps in and out is useful, but once you get bled down below 1k and slower than 300kmh you are in a huge energy deficit that is hard to recover from if your 109 opponent has equal or higher energy.  

 

You will generally ALWAYS be fighting uphill against a 109.  The best fight to fight in the LaGG is the unfair one, but even with an initial advantage, if you don't capitalize on it, you will find that advantage erodes rapidly against a well flown F-4 or G-2.  1 vs 1 fights are difficult to win consistently from neutral starts.  From a position of disadvantage your best hope is to have a wingman, or try to force the head-on.  It just isn't a good place to be...I've been in long 1 v 1 fights in a LaGG and worked very hard to equalize my opponent, only to very rapidly lose all that progress and find I am losing again.  It goes that direction for the LaGG more frequently that it goes in the other I'm afraid.

 

Your game plan, or guidelines on the LaGG are spot on. Something worth trying from a defensive start is to extend and force the 109 to come down and chase you from a long horizontal extension.  Keep your speed up and when he comes down check turn into him to present your side to him in a gentle energy conserving turn.  If he pulls pure pursuit and goes for a hi aspect gun attack to your beam, anticipate it with a pull into him to jam his shot, and hope his gunnery is poor, then reverse hard and put your lift vector on him and pull up into him as he climbs.  If you time it right and you have good energy you will momentarily be at a relative energy parity, and you might have a snap shot on the reversal, but you have to assume he has 500-600 kmh on his crate so much less than 400-450 on your crate will not give you enough time to get shot.  He WILL out zoom you...but if you get good at manipulating flaps and point uphill in the LaGG it is a stable enough gun platform to be accurate from long distances and at slow speeds and Hi AOA. But judicious flap manipulation is a must.  When you top out, an aggressive 109 pilot will capitalize on your vulnerability and come back quickly to try and get the kill.  Be ready for that, and get the nose down, add energy, and be ready to go into an immediate defense of his counter attack.

[reve_etrange]

It seems like even the lowly lagg 3 is capable of matching my bf-109 in a turn.

 

Are you using the adjustable stabilizer to help turn? As in real life according to pilot accounts, using the stabilizer is critical when maneuvering.

 

Emergency power can also help maintain a tight turn, and the 109 does turn a bit better to the left (and the standard 109 upwards spiral should be conducted to the left).

[=FI=Rambo]

 

Your game plan, or guidelines on the LaGG are spot on. Something worth trying from a defensive start is to extend and force the 109 to come down and chase you from a long horizontal extension.  Keep your speed up and when he comes down check turn into him to present your side to him in a gentle energy conserving turn.  If he pulls pure pursuit and goes for a hi aspect gun attack to your beam, anticipate it with a pull into him to jam his shot, and hope his gunnery is poor, then reverse hard and put your lift vector on him and pull up into him as he climbs.  If you time it right and you have good energy you will momentarily be at a relative energy parity, and you might have a snap shot on the reversal, but you have to assume he has 500-600 kmh on his crate so much less than 400-450 on your crate will not give you enough time to get shot.  He WILL out zoom you...but if you get good at manipulating flaps and point uphill in the LaGG it is a stable enough gun platform to be accurate from long distances and at slow speeds and Hi AOA. But judicious flap manipulation is a must.  When you top out, an aggressive 109 pilot will capitalize on your vulnerability and come back quickly to try and get the kill.  Be ready for that, and get the nose down, add energy, and be ready to go into an immediate defense of his counter attack.

 

Nice description of an average Lagg fight Elf.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

The LaGG is a fun plane. I flew it almost exclusively online in the MP servers during the early days of early access. With an altitude advantage you can be very effective. It has great armament and is a stable gun platform. It now also dives well and has good high top speed out of a dive to the Deck. It suffers greatly above 4km, and is true handful in terms of pilot work load (assuming expert settings). It CAN out turn a 109 but only for a short time and with heavy use of flaps, at great sacrifice of your airspeed. One of it's few advantages is that the flaps program faster than the 109. So popping flaps in and out is useful, but once you get bled down below 1k and slower than 300kmh you are in a huge energy deficit that is hard to recover from if your 109 opponent has equal or higher energy.

 

You will generally ALWAYS be fighting uphill against a 109. The best fight to fight in the LaGG is the unfair one, but even with an initial advantage, if you don't capitalize on it, you will find that advantage erodes rapidly against a well flown F-4 or G-2. 1 vs 1 fights are difficult to win consistently from neutral starts. From a position of disadvantage your best hope is to have a wingman, or try to force the head-on. It just isn't a good place to be...I've been in long 1 v 1 fights in a LaGG and worked very hard to equalize my opponent, only to very rapidly lose all that progress and find I am losing again. It goes that direction for the LaGG more frequently that it goes in the other I'm afraid.

 

Your game plan, or guidelines on the LaGG are spot on. Something worth trying from a defensive start is to extend and force the 109 to come down and chase you from a long horizontal extension. Keep your speed up and when he comes down check turn into him to present your side to him in a gentle energy conserving turn. If he pulls pure pursuit and goes for a hi aspect gun attack to your beam, anticipate it with a pull into him to jam his shot, and hope his gunnery is poor, then reverse hard and put your lift vector on him and pull up into him as he climbs. If you time it right and you have good energy you will momentarily be at a relative energy parity, and you might have a snap shot on the reversal, but you have to assume he has 500-600 kmh on his crate so much less than 400-450 on your crate will not give you enough time to get shot. He WILL out zoom you...but if you get good at manipulating flaps and point uphill in the LaGG it is a stable enough gun platform to be accurate from long distances and at slow speeds and Hi AOA. But judicious flap manipulation is a must. When you top out, an aggressive 109 pilot will capitalize on your vulnerability and come back quickly to try and get the kill. Be ready for that, and get the nose down, add energy, and be ready to go into an immediate defense of his counter attack.

Lol sounds exactly like me in 109, good advice

[TheElf]

Nice description of an average Lagg fight Elf.

 

 

                                                                                                            ^

And if anyone wants to learn about how to fight a good LaGG ask this guy   I    He's the best LaGG pilot I know.

[Deltahawkoz]

Great advice TheElf...managed to bring down a 109 offline..(Oh I know, MP is where its at)...Came by applying tips and tricks, not taking the first shot, not pretending to be an energy fighter, preferring lag pursuit to lead..etc etc...Hope this sim keeps developing, this could be a classic!

[TheElf]

Great advice TheElf...managed to bring down a 109 offline..(Oh I know, MP is where its at)...Came by applying tips and tricks, not taking the first shot, not pretending to be an energy fighter, preferring lag pursuit to lead..etc etc...Hope this sim keeps developing, this could be a classic!

 

 

AI 109s are not pushovers either!  Congrats!

[CIA_Luth]

Elf, 

 

you forgot to tell him one thing.   he should do what i do. always, always fly with a wingman.  in my case, one who is a better pilot and shot than i am.  then he can clear your six while you play bait.  

[BlitzPig_EL]

One thing to remember about the AI is that they are not synthetic humans, with human foibles and human error rates.

 

AI are the game engine,  They are a computer. 

 

Just to understand this, take off in a single mission in the plane of your choice, climb to a suitable altitude and get yourself trimmed out well in level flight at cruise power.

 

Now hit the A key and let the AI fly your plane,   Don't sightsee, look at your instruments when the AI is in control.   You will find that it is perfectly trimmed with the slip ball centered as if glued in place.

 

Now shut the AI off and regain control your self and look at the slip ball.  Oh, and your airspeed indicator too.

 

Try this a full power as well.

 

This is why the AI seem to outperform you.   It isn't that they have cheater planes or FMs, they are always perfectly in trim, and they perfectly control the pitch, mix, and every other control input.

 

Oh, and because they use your positional info from the program, they know where your are, how fast you are going, and when you are at your weapon's convergence range.

Edited January 11, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

[reve_etrange]

Now hit the A key and let the AI fly your plane,   Don't sightsee, look at your instruments when the AI is in control.   You will find that it is perfectly trimmed with the slip ball centered as if glued in place.

 

Oh, and because they use your positional info from the program, they know where your are, how fast you are going, and when you are at your weapon's convergence range.

 

Don't overestimate the AI piloting ability - the slip ball is frequently not perfectly centered on auto-level, especially if there is wind or turbulence. Also, the AI may use some real time information about the player, but also has some realistic limitations, such as inability to see through clouds. OTOH, I believe they have 360-degree SA. (It's hard to tell such things from flying with the AI).

 

I think you're right about mix, pitch, etc., but I'm not sure if it's handled in exactly the same way for every AI difficulty level.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Even if the AI fly very well they, no matter what game it is, still don't have human levels of intuition or creative ability. This translates in air combat to flexibility and coming up with creative solutions to tactical situations. The AI here is very good in air combat but they do make mistakes... sometimes very human ones where they will suddenly dump a bunch of speed to make a tight turn and that was just what I wanted them to do (and was in position to capitalize on it).

 

Still working my way up on how to be an excellent fighter pilot in this game. It's more challenging than anything else I've flown. It's definitely harder to put guns on target and deal with the tactics of the situation than in the past. Practice, read, practice some more, get accustomed to thinking about energy (altitude and speed) and how to spend it wisely. Try and control the situation that you're in and stay aware of all of the variables if you can. Knowing where everyone is, what your wingman is doing, what the energy states of your opponents are and so forth is very useful.

[Sokol1]

Set dogfights against Fw 190, even in ACE their AI do almost nothing... Just avoid Head On (with all planes, situations).

Edited January 11, 2015 by Sokol1

[Willy__]

Set dogfights against Fw 190, even in ACE their AI do almost nothing... Just avoid Head On (with all planes, situations).

 

My guess is that the 190 is an exception, the plane most be flown in a very specific way for it to be effective, yet the AI treat it like any other plane, thats why the AI cant do anything in it. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by istruba

[BlitzPig_EL]

reve_etrange,

 

I'm not talking about the level autopilot, I'm talking about letting the AI fly your aircraft on Automatic.

 

Perhapse it cannot be done in single player quick mission, but in the campaign the AI can fly your whole mission for you, and they manage trim, well, like a computer.