Developer Diary, Part 33

[Rodolphe]

...

 

 

Obelix

 

Hey I see that You've been watching too much of those 1970's Hollywood War Movies ?   

 

 

 

 

So ? Another myths needs to be turned out : German soft skin vehicles with doors placarded with Balkenkreuz ! 

 

They were of course some exceptions but the application of these Black Crosses on the side doors of German soft skin vehicles was not a general rule.

 

 

Please Check !  Thousand of wartime pictures of those vehicles are available on the web or / and in published specialize books.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kfz-305-Opel-Blitz-and-trucks-of-the-Wehrmacht/103208779758737?id=103208779758737&sk=photos_stream

 

https://www.facebook...103208779758737

  

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=UiPcsak8hUA

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fG32Sxvyldg

 

 

Anyway, Thanks to keep us updated.

 

 

 Des soldats allemands pédalent sur des cuistax

 

 

...

Edited September 21, 2013 by Rodolphe

[Skoshi_Tiger]

You are undoubtly right as much as fighters are concerned. If you intend to fly the sims namesake, village layout becomes a whole lot more relevant to gameplay and immersion.

 

 

 

Also we will be flying on this map for quite a while, so even little differences will go along way in giving us the ability to recognize these villages as landmarks, not just objects filling in the map.

[gavagai]

So, if FMs are being fine-tuned now, does that mean the tremendous LagG-3 roll rate seen in the alpha video is here to stay?  What about stick forces to limit control column movement amplitude at high speed?

[Original_Uwe]

_{in old IL2 we had cloud whine and water whine (see Lexx Luther) among other whines, and now we have snow whine....}

_{and neighborhood layout whine no less}

 

lets bend those streets and curve those fences eh? this IS a flight sim after all, yes?

+1

[hiro]

I liked this update, we got nice FM and some DM explanation. 

 

Then we got those complaining about the village people, the infantry people, and wishing the game had infantry FPS perspectives . . . 

 

Or wishing there was swastikas or no iron crosses etc . The devs will be able to figure it out. Also I've seen lots of ww 2 footage with german vehicles of the era with iron crosses. 

 

 

The devs are focusing on getting a good starting base point. 

 

 

It's like in WW2, some wanted French airbases and the pressure lifted off of the Soviet, but dude, you gotta wait until the footholds on Normandy have taken place. 

 

 

 

More detail is needed in ground objects...hmmmm...this is 14 years after IL-2 demo in 2000-th year...

 

Look here: .

 

https://www.google.bg/search?q=IronFront&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=q0c8Uu_zHsbWtAaJkIDgCA&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1217&bih=1043&dpr=1

 

Here too:

 

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/iron-front-liberation-1944-d-day-dlc-announced-coming-this-december/

 

... THATS WHAT I CALL contemporary WWII simulation...

 

 

 

 

whoa whoa whoa, whoa stop right there. Playing a infantry tac shooter and flying a sim ain't even the same thing

 

"It's not. It's the same game. "

 

Ain't no frickin same game. Now look, maybe your method of gaming differs from mine, but, you know, holding a rifle, and pulling your stick while hoping to the holiest of holies you get out alive, ain't the same freakin game, it ain't the same sim, it ain't even the same freakin genre. Look, high end graphics aren't the whole story. 

 

[FlatSpinMan]

Pulp Fiction inspired lines, if I'm not mistaken.

[Volkoff]

 

I liked this update... 

 

 

 

+1 The team updates are always great and very much appreciated!

 

 MJ

[ACG_Dickie]

I fully understand that founders are privileged to play the beta game already but is our choice/opinion less important?

 

 

Yes.  I would have thought that obvious.  But the poll is only a little game treat for founder members only anyway.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Osprey

[JG4_Sputnik]

Since the early screenshots Im also very underwhelmed with the villages' layout. they seem so generic... A little more love regarding the placement of the fences and houses wouldve wored wonders (and wont ruin any fps since just the layout changes, not the object density).

 

Yes its a flightsim (but why then we have drivers in the trucks?), but distinguishable villages are needed for gemeral navigation and the feeling of being over a real historical place. We could have also just a plane white map and still be able to dog fight...

 

Anyway, I know everyone wants different things but for me, I wouldnt miss the truckdrivers so much (especially since they cant run from the vehicle when they get attacked, so whats the point?) if youve put that same efford in building less generic looking villages.

 

Anyhow, the stuff about the FM is a great read.

Thanks for the update.

[Foobar]

The yellow triangle sign on the cabin's rooftop is the so called "Anhängertafel". It only has to be errected when the truck has one or more trailers. In all other cases it has to be layed down.

 

Rather minor error, but it's everytime the same... :D

 

 

[Freycinet]

The yellow triangle sign on the cabin's rooftop is the so called "Anhängertafel". It only has to be errected when the truck has one or more trailers. In all other cases it has to be layed down.

 

Rather minor error, but it's everytime the same... :D

 

Thanks to you and Rudolphe for notifying of these small details that are a little bit off. Would have been good if the modelling artist could have shown an early draft of his models to your discerning eyes.

[Zmaj76]

So, if FMs are being fine-tuned now, does that mean the tremendous LagG-3 roll rate seen in the alpha video is here to stay? What about stick forces to limit control column movement amplitude at high speed?

if they let that happen...i mean to have arcadish FM which is less accurate than in 12 yrs old il2...then...i will really loose a faith in next generation of hardcore sims....but lets be optimistic for now hehe Edited September 22, 2013 by Tvrdi

[SYN_Mike77]

On the villages:  People complained that the villages look to straight lined and generic.  They do.  Then the devs come up with an answer:  much to the surprise of the devs themselves, most of the villages around Stalingrad in 1942-3 were straight lined and generic!  So the devs are being true to history with the layout as is.  The response to this answer is to repeat the argument that they look to straight lined and generic and to show a picture of a village in another part of Russia today.  Win for the devs.

 

Lets put the question in its historical context.  Most European villages grew up organically, over time in an ad hoc manner.  Thus you get villages like the pic of the one outside of Moscow.  But, the area around Stalingrad was (to the best of my knowledge) mainly empty until the forced collectivization and industrialization drive in the late 20's and earlier 30's.  Whole villages and even some midsized towns were created from scratch by Government planners trying to please Stalin.  The fact that everything is in a straight line and in its proper place makes perfect sense to me.

 

Now I guess it could be argued that the villages still don't look right and the game should conform to what we want it to look like and not what was actually happening at the time.  If that is the case I have a request:  I've always thought the 109 would look even cooler with swept wings.  Would the devs please change the look to what I think would be cool rather than what Messerschmidt designed in 1936?

[Matt]

Instead of worrying about pre-alpha flight models, it might be a good idea to supply flight data of the planes in question.

[gavagai]

if they let that happen...i mean to have arcadish FM which is less accurate than in 12 yrs old il2...then...i will really loose a faith in next generation of hardcore sims....but lets be optimistic for now hehe

 

I'd like to hear commentary from Petrovich or another team member about the LagG-3 roll rate, please.  Did Il-2 1946 have it completely wrong?  Is there a good source describing a roll rate like that?

 

 

Instead of worrying about pre-alpha flight models, it might be a good idea to supply flight data of the planes in question.

 

 

I think now is exactly the right time to worry about something like this, before it gets cemented in stone.

Edited September 22, 2013 by gavagai

[Zmaj76]

Instead of worrying about pre-alpha flight models, it might be a good idea to supply flight data of the planes in question.

They have all the data they need....it was a bigger problem in ROF since far less data is available and.....but I guess you would worry if you, on example, wouldnt be able to catch Lagg-ie in a Focke Wulf or if Lagg-ie would have a faster roll rate.......or not?...but lets stop with presumptions and with "ifs"..

 

 

 

I think now is exactly the right time to worry about something like this, before it gets cemented in stone.

 

 

"A Trauma from childhood"?    

But, seriously Gav, Im starting to believe most ppl just dont care about FMs....todays sim customer market is more like "gimme some nice graphics, knobs to pull, effects and planes which look alike the planes which flew in ww2".....thats how things are.....not to mention that most guys are SP junkies....and even less of them are history buffs....then there are ppl who will say "hey, its just a game" to justify their casual gaming experience with hardcroe sims...

my hope is that amongst ww2 crowd there is a signifficent number of MP players who will care about relative preformances between planes in conflict...

Edited September 22, 2013 by Tvrdi

[gavagai]

I hear ya tvrdi, but I don't mean to start a philosophical discussion here.  I would just like to hear something about these specific questions.

 

LagG-3 roll rate in BoS: is it final or could it change?  What is the evidence for its roll rate comparing well to a Fw 190?

[Zmaj76]

 

 

LagG-3 roll rate in BoS: is it final or could it change?  What is the evidence for its roll rate comparing well to a Fw 190?

 

 

Well....BOS its still alpha...

Edited September 22, 2013 by Tvrdi

[Matt]

They have all the data they need....it was a bigger problem in ROF since far less data is available and.....but I guess you would worry if you, on example, wouldnt be able to catch Lagg-ie in a Focke Wulf or if Lagg-ie would have a faster roll rate.......or not?...but lets stop with presumptions and with "ifs"..

I will be worried if the LaGG will be faster than the FW190. And i will probably be worried about the LaGGs rollrate, when i find some data about it (which i failed to do so far, that's why i can't be worried about that).

 

Good beer choice btw. I'll have one like that right now.

 

PS: I think the question "are stick forces modelled" is more interesting. Because that's what lacking in RoF and seems to be lacking in these BoS previews.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Matt

[leitmotiv]

we saw LaGG-3 roll at 300-350km/h TAS, (atleast what i think it was the speed, they have black lines down so we dont see HUD and speed data)  big diferance betwen LaGG or any Russian airplane in compering roll rate with Fw-190 comes on higher speeds FW still has same fast roll rate at 300km/h TAS or at 550km/h TAS Russian airplanes dont its almost double time.

 

I remember reading they said, show us data that proves that our data is wrong and well talk about it, just posting and saying its wrong because one thinks it should be like that or this i would not expect they will get in discussion then.

I was also supprised on speed LaGG roles but later i realised we saw it on that last live stream on slow speed and bigger the speed worse roll for LaGG-3 atleast from what i see in IL2 (only other game i played with LaGG-3) even in IL2 if you compere LaGG-3 and FW-190 roll at 300km/h differance is around 1s but on high speed diferance is much bigger, and in no video of BoS LaGG-3 we saw hes roll at high speed or we saw FW-190 roll rate, so guessing FMs are wrong is ... well just that guessing 

[Tektolnes]

It's doing an aileron roll in just over 2 seconds. That's pretty phenomenal for any WW2 fighter. Most fighters were in the 70-90 degrees/second range depending on various speeds, etc. The Lagg-3 earlier series models were always described as sluggish and unresponsive. Nowhere seems to mention that they out-rolled just about everything in the sky. Most likely because they didn't. We'll see what comes into Alpha anyway and I'm sure people will dig up data if that roll rate is still there.

[gavagai]

I remember reading they said, show us data that proves that our data is wrong and well talk about it, just posting and saying its wrong because one thinks it should be like that or this i would not expect they will get in discussion then.

 

Trying to prove a negative is a very, very, very hard thing to do...prove that dinosaurs didn't dance.

 

I'm not saying "it's wrong."  I'm saying, "please explain how you got that result."

 

 

With my stopwatch I get about 2.4 seconds for a 360 degree left aileron roll in the LagG-3, or about 150 degrees/second.  So, if it is correct then the LagG-3 had one of the best roll rates of WW2.  Maybe we will learn something?

 

Edited September 22, 2013 by gavagai

[Heywooood]

downward Lagg apparently

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I never knew the Zero had such a bad roll rate, something learned today.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

On the villages:  People complained that the villages look to straight lined and generic.  They do.  Then the devs come up with an answer:  much to the surprise of the devs themselves, most of the villages around Stalingrad in 1942-3 were straight lined and generic!  So the devs are being true to history with the layout as is.  The response to this answer is to repeat the argument that they look to straight lined and generic and to show a picture of a village in another part of Russia today.  Win for the devs.

 

I refrained from making a big fuss over this because I don't want to spoil the mood and derail. The update was mainly about FM and some DM, which was very interesting and looks very promising, I believe the village lay-out is a marginal point for most.

 

However, with regard to "other parts of Russia today" you wrote, allow me to draw your attention to some details from the map segment that Han posted:

 

 

This is not another part of Russia, and yes, the fences and houses mostly lines up. This is indeed the type of kolkhoz type of villages you describe. The thing is they still don't line up perfectly. Notice how some houses do not line up with the fences, not all farms have the houses clustered the same way, not all angles are 90 degrees etc. It is particularly evident around the highlighted yellow house. It is this type of subtle variation I was asking for, not the haphazardly grown Central European style of villages.

 

I believe the villages are auto-grown for a map this size to be finished in time. This means that fiddling a bit with the basic template can add just the little touch of unevenness the is the difference between an obviously auto-generated village and a more natural looking one. If user input can be added to the map like Jason said, then tweaking villages from historic references is going to be very rewarding.

[JG4_Sputnik]

+1

But will the user made "maps" be available for online mode as well?

Edited September 23, 2013 by JG4_Sputnik

[Uufflakke]

Notice how some houses do not line up with the fences, not all farms have the houses clustered the same way, not all angles are 90 degrees etc.

 

Another thing about the fences that has not been mentioned yet: in screenshots there is a kind of path between fences. But usually neighbouring houses share a fence on the side and and in many occasions at the back of houses.

IIt is something that hasn't changed over the years.

Take for instance this aerial photo of WWII Stalingrad:

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/stalingradaerialscans/TUGX1325SG/slides/TUGX1325SG-020.html

Same kind of mathematic structure but houses share the same fence.

 

People may find it nitpickin' but I couldn't resist myself mentioning it.

[ImPeRaToR]

This looks like a great IFV, they only need to mount a 20mm cannon and it's perfect

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

+1

But will the user made "maps" be available for online mode as well?

 

If I understood Jason correctly, well made map modifications could be submitted for approval (and I assume) incorporation into the master map.

[ImPeRaToR]

If I understood Jason correctly, well made map modifications could be submitted for approval (and I assume) incorporation into the master map.

I am no expert on the subject but I believe building placement is part of the mission file itself, so that can always be modified. However there is also the use of so called "substrate" texture which provide additional landscape details and traces of civilisation such as building shadows, concrete or cobblestone areas and what not.

 

This thread might contain more info:

http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=348&t=33063

[Jochen]

Having the Balkenkreuz (or Swastika flag, outside of Germany of course) on a vehicle would make for better identification from the air.

At this point in the war, both sides were using each others equipment (think T-34 Beutepanzer).

The vehicles (eg. Opel Blitz) look good (but either model the spade on the Panzerwagen or leave it off the skin), the earlier shown tanks look great, but I'm not sold on the infantry yet (I have to be with lord Vader on that one).

I'd like the tree trunks to have some snow heaped around them, from snow drifts. And smoke trickling from some cabin roofs would add to the icy atmosphere.

For ground attack I would like to see those details.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Jochen

[71st_AH_Hooves]

This just proves to me that there are tbose that in the absence of real material to complain about. They will complain about anything. Seriously you are arguing about house placement and fence placement. It's very close to the photographs. And the only time you are going to be seeing this that close up and long enougb to analyse is when you have crashed into the buildings. Give it a rest.

 

At least the FM discussion has an attempt at finding an answer. Even tbough the assumption that they don't care about getting a realistic fm goes against everything they have said. Yeah I'm sure they are just saying "lets just make up a roll rate". Really some of you need to seriously think about stuff before posting.

[HoH]

This is flight sim not a Sim City...

[JG4_Sputnik]

Big part of a flight sim is atmosphere imho. Believeable villages and ground details add to the atmosphere. And no, the houses and fences on the postet real world photo in no way look like the ones on the screenshot (again, only 90 degrees angles, two fence rows and so on).

 

This is not a major let down or something (especially since I know RoF Im aware of the fact that living and atmospheric maps arent 777's strongest leg).

 

But i wont accept the argument that you will see such details "only when you crash in it" - so then theres no need for proper skin making let alone correct ground vehicle modelling (with drivers). Cities and villages are, besides from the cockpit, probably one of the main visual features.

 

Or why would they even model Stalingrad at such acribical researched detail? Itd be a shame, if the villages around Stalingrad didnt get the same treatment.

 

Just my two cents.

[Jochen]

With immersive gameplay in mind, I would like the landscape to come more alive.

I want to feel like I'm reading a book like "Le Soldat Oublié". That is not complaining, rather wishing.

The arguement that since you don't see details up close you don't need to model them holds to a certain extent, but when showing (close up) screenshots like these you are bound to get comments and those can feed a healthy discussion. And with immersive gameplay in mind, that discussion is needed.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Jochen

[Veteran66]

this is a picture from Kalach you see the village is square.

so historic correct,

But it need more mud on the roads there was not all days -20°C (Nov- Dez 1942)

[Veteran66]

here pictures from Stalingrad city, Rynok and Krasnya Slboda 

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Well, looking at those pics i guess the devs have it right.

[DD_bongodriver]

I would say the devs have it right for those locations pictured,

[AX2]

Han !   this is the best update for me!!

Now I understood many things.

And now ... I know, how  dificult is make the FMs.

And we have Ground troops!

Really  Amazing!