Why can't I be treated like a grown up?

[BraveSirRobin]

That functionality WAS in BoS already during almost whole EA.

So, again, I am afraid they are aiming for consoles...

 

And was removed before the official release.

 

Not sure how this has anything to do with consoles.  I think it's just as likely that they're aiming for porting into alien spaceships.

And that's the kind of unncessary statement that make any chance of reasonable discussion rather slim.

 

[Deleted]

 

Please do not make those kinds of statements.

 

Edited by Bearcat 12/29/2014 1450

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Although I agree with op custom graphics are good in one since, I would happily have them, ur specs are a bit outdated and u may be able to get a bit more performance but not much from custom. I also think that there are good reasons for set graphics, such as people not gaming them and everyone is more or less on same playing field. Tbh I have a medium to low spec and the options more than cater for me and anyways the stuff that really hits frame rate are custom such as aa

Anyways this has been done to death I personally can live with it

[CIA_Yankee_]

Sorry but this really doesn't hold in my opinion (with all due respect). Post-release customer service is available for ALL games - even those who offer full control over grafic settings. Also the restricted ressources is imho not justifying this. I play quite a few indie games with even less ressources than BoS and they ALL offer full control over COMMONLY available grafic options. And we are not asking for some fancy grafic options here ...

 

So? These other games would still save time and resources if they used graphic presets like BOS does... they just choose not to.

 

Just because most other games allow full customization does not mean the benefits of presets don't exist. They obviously do. Most other games simply accept the added burden as necessary for PC games.

 

777 doesn't... is it the best decision? Maybe not, but the benefits ARE real, and that's why we get presets. 

[ST_ami7b5]

Last time:

RoF proves (for years) customisable graphics are viable with this engine.

Fullstop.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ST_ami7b5

[CIA_Yankee_]

And yet, any time someone creates or contributes to a topic which dares to criticise the developers or suggest a better way, the usual suspects show up to shout loudly about how wrong they are and that they are only here posting bad stuff because they are haters.

 

You can't say that doesn't happen, it happened to me frequently.

 

[Edited]

 

While there is a lot of hate going on around BOS, this was a pretty reasonable discussion for the most part (well, aside from the whole "they think we're stupid bit", which is what I responded to, hopefully reasonably so)... there's no need to add more emotionally charged material to the mix.

 

Edited by Bearcat 12/29/2014 1501 EST

[FlatSpinMan]

As Yankee said, this started out fine but has gotten silly. Cut out all the angst and hurt feelings on both sides - we're just winding each other up. We all know the arguments for and against by now, and like it or not, we're currently, perhaps forever, stuck with them. What else is there to say?

[dburne]

 

That said, having an unsupported custom settings option w/ disclaimer would probably be a good idea... though I imagine loads of people will still get angry when things go wrong with custom settings.

 

 

 

My goodness, how in the world did all these successful pc games manage over the last several years? As far as I know BOS is the first PC simulation ( game), that limits the users to hard coded presets for graphics options.

Let me emphasize - PC Sim/Game.

 

The reason I do all of my somewhat limited gaming on a PC ( rather than a console), heck I build my own PC's just for that, is having the ability to tweak and customize each of my games to my own personal taste, ie what I think looks best for me in visuals versus performance. If I wanted simplicity over substance, I would own a console.

[FlatSpinMan]

Also, let's ditch the use of "fanboy" and "hater". These terms do nothing to advance the discussion.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Last time:

RoF proves (for years) customisable graphics are viable with this engine.

Fullstop.

 

And that's missing the point entirely. Nobody is saying custom graphics are impossible. There's nothing that needs to be proven here, so the point is moot.

 

The point is that custom graphics add a lot more permutations to both test and support prior and after release of any update. By having presets, these permutations are limited to precisely 4. That represents a massive saving in time and resource.

 

To go back to RoF, all it means is that RoF requires a lot more testing efforts than BOS does (at least at comparable stages in development... BOS no doubt requires more effort overall as it's a new product).

[BraveSirRobin]

Presets solely benefit the developer not the userbase.

That's the problem.

 

Those that don't want to adjust their settings don't have to.

Those that want to can't.

 

If it makes it easier for the developer to stay in business it benefits all of us.

[ST_ami7b5]

And that's missing the point entirely. Nobody is saying custom graphics are impossible. There's nothing that needs to be proven here, so the point is moot.

 

The point is that custom graphics add a lot more permutations to both test and support prior and after release of any update. By having presets, these permutations are limited to precisely 4. That represents a massive saving in time and resource.

 

To go back to RoF, all it means is that RoF requires a lot more testing efforts than BOS does (at least at comparable stages in development... BOS no doubt requires more effort overall as it's a new product).

Never mind then...

 

It WAS tested for years in RoF (same graphics engine) and it WORKS already.

 

No use to continue maybe...

Edited December 29, 2014 by ST_ami7b5

[BraveSirRobin]

Never mind then...

 

No need to roll your eyes.  His explanation is completely reasonable.

[FlatSpinMan]

Hey, this is going nowhere fast! Let's not do this. Snippy little responses to other posters' comments contribute nothing - this goes for both?all? sides. If you have something constructive to add, please do so. If yo uare just trying to get back at someone else or inflame things, refrain from doing so.

[ST_ami7b5]

For my part I said everything I wanted to say on this matter.

No need for any personal attacks.

We are here because we (all) care.

 

Edit: my apologies for rolling eyes.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ST_ami7b5

[CIA_Yankee_]

My goodness, how in the world did all these successful pc games manage over the last several years? As far as I know BOS is the first PC simulation ( game), that limits the users to hard coded presets for graphics options.

Let me emphasize - PC Sim/Game.

 

They did it by devoting more resources on QA than they would have if they used graphics presets like BOS does... either that or released buggier products.

 

The point still stands: presets limit the number of permutations required for testing and support. This allows the devs to better use their limited resources and provide a more stable product. Just because BOS is the first sim to make use of presets does not diminish the benefits they provide.

[Bearcat]

As Yankee said, this started out fine but has gotten silly. Cut out all the angst and hurt feelings on both sides - we're just winding each other up. We all know the arguments for and against by now, and like it or not, we're currently, perhaps forever, stuck with them. What else is there to say?

Also, let's ditch the use of "fanboy" and "hater". These terms do nothing to advance the discussion.

 

This...

 

Look gentlemen. Let's just keep things straight. There has been enough angst over much of this for the past few months to full volumes. Whatever happened in the past needs to stay in the past and we need to be mindful of  what we say and how we say it and be forward thinking in what we post.

 

We.. the moderators here are trying to do things a little different and we do not want to contribute to the tension with overbearing moderation but at the same time we do intend to keep things civil and we need your help to do so. Please cooperate.

[SharpeXB]

We as the players do benefit from the developer having an easier workload.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Never mind then...

 

It WAS tested for years in RoF (same graphics engine) and it WORKS already.

 

No use to continue maybe...

 

Not trying to hate here, just want to explain:

 

It doesn't matter if the engine settings were already tested in RoF, the testing is STILL required in BOS.

 

BOS is a new product, and every release and patch requires extensive testing. They can't just go "we know the engine works in RoF, so let's skip testing". Things still need to AT LEAST go through regression testing, and this testing needs to account for all permutations (or at least it _should_, anything less is bad QA). This is a bare minimum.

 

Then you need to consider that the engine certainly did not remain unchanged from RoF. New features almost certainly needed to be coded in to account for new functionality, for example. So you can't just expect something that worked in RoF to necessarily work in BoS. They're almost certainly a separate code base, for example.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.

[ST_ami7b5]

We as the players do benefit from the developer having an easier workload.

I promise this is the last one from me

It was already done and then removed.

[CIA_Yankee_]

We, as players, as customers seem to be the last consideration in many of the decisions.

 

It should be noted, however, that presets do not just benefit the devs. By narrowing down what they need to test for, they are able to provide a more stable product than they would with custom graphics (with comparable resources, of course).

 

Of course, this wouldn't prevent a custom setting w/ disclaimer (though, again, this depends on how dangerous the bugs could be).

[Bearcat]

We as the players do benefit from the developer having an easier workload.

 

Particularly considering that the sim is still a work in progress. It is not yet finished.

 

We, as players, as customers seem to be the last consideration in many of the decisions.

 

I believe that at the end of the day the devs want to deliver the best quality sim they can.

 

Not trying to hate here, just want to explain:

 

It doesn't matter if the engine settings were already tested in RoF, the testing is STILL required in BOS.

 

BOS is a new product, and every release and patch requires extensive testing. They can't just go "we know the engine works in RoF, so let's skip testing". Things still need to AT LEAST go through regression testing, and this testing needs to account for all permutations (or at least it _should_, anything less is bad QA). This is a bare minimum.

 

Then you need to consider that the engine certainly did not remain unchanged from RoF. New features almost certainly needed to be coded in to account for new functionality, for example. So you can't just expect something that worked in RoF to necessarily work in BoS. They're almost certainly a separate code base, for example.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

 

I was going to say this. Consider that IL2 and Forgotten Battles were made with the same engine yet there was a performance difference with Foprgotten Battles.. I know that a post was made by Zak saying that the presets were staying but we do not know for certain if this is forever or just for the immediate future and we cannot make the team disclose their plan.

[Soarfeat]

In regards to the original post concerning the stutter issues with this flight sim, I had the same problem with my older build ( i7 930, 6 gb ddr3 mem, msi gtx 760 gpu ). I also fly ROF and COD and they did fine with this set-up on medium settings basically. Well, I had a itch to upgrade my pc components and really did not have the money to do so, however a friend suggested selling the old parts and putting that towards a new build. I did this and it worked out really well, the upgrade was very do-able or I should say affordable after selling my old parts. I did end up using my old hard drives and psu that was only a year and a half old but this was a eco-build. Firing up BOS with this new upgrade--no issues with stuttering what so ever. I cannot really see any difference ( much ) betweeen HIGH and Ultra settings so just run it on High settings for extra umph !!! So, and as you all know it is only this persons opinion, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and with my old rig it should have run this sim better than it did however something whether it be the compatiblity/communication of the memory with the cpu, or a little problem somewhere with my motherboard---the list goes on and I did not really want to invest any more money towards this old build so I just accepted the little stuttering until I upgraded to see if it resolved the problem and it did. If I had stutters still after this I would say it must be something to do with the coding of the sim but this does not appear to be the problem in this particular case. I surely see both sides of the argument to being able to select more specific graphic settings but just accept things as they are.

Cheers--sf--

[dburne]

They did it by devoting more resources on QA than they would have if they used graphics presets like BOS does... either that or released buggier products.

 

The point still stands: presets limit the number of permutations required for testing and support. This allows the devs to better use their limited resources and provide a more stable product. Just because BOS is the first sim to make use of presets does not diminish the benefits they provide.

 

Have you read somewhere this explanation from the developers, or is this presumption?

 

I have seen one official response from the developers on this topic, and it was over on the Steam forums about a month or so ago , either Zak or Loft posted it under their Steam ID of Wetaplko ( something like that) - and I am not going to try and find it now.

 

To paraphrase it was something like " So you want a graphics trainer or a fight sim? We are not going to offer customized graphics, only presets , as there is a certainly way we want BOS to look and it is coded in the presets."

 

The above is not word for word as I am going on memory here, but pretty close to summing up the developers opinion on this topic.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Have you read somewhere this explanation from the developers, or is this presumption?

 

It's simply from professional experience. The benefits of presets are very clear, and cutting down potential scenarios has significant benefits.

[BraveSirRobin]

I promise this is the last one from me

It was already done and then removed.

 

The fact that it was already in the game does not change the fact that all the settings have to be retested every time there is a significant change to the game.  

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

I have seen one official response from the developers on this topic, and it was over on the Steam forums about a month or so ago , either Zak or Loft posted it under their Steam ID of Wetaplko ( something like that) - and I am not going to try and find it now.

 

To paraphrase it was something like " So you want a graphics trainer or a fight sim? We are not going to offer customized graphics, only presets , as there is a certainly way we want BOS to look and it is coded in the presets."

 

-snip-

 

Weptalo.

 

I recall having seen that one as well... Pretty close to being word for word. 

Edited December 29, 2014 by FalkeEins

[33lima]

Back on topic...somewhat. I tried BoS on the same premise as the OP - that my system, such as it was, could manage RoF.

 

Despite the fact my PC  is mostly somewhat below the 'recommended' RoF system specs (I have a Core 2 Quad 2.33GHz, a 1 Gb GTS 250 and 6Gb RAM, nothing fancy at all) BoS performs acceptably at medium/balanced settings. 

 

I'm not commenting on whether or not greater ability to tweak graphics settings would help those who have problems; just making the point that the RoF benchmark proved valid in my case, despite my system's limitations.

 

I presume the OP has tweaked what can be tweaked, like turning off 'Seed when downloaded' in the launcher, trying different FPS limits, setting antialiasing in sim and turning off in  graphics card drivers and vice-versa. FWIW, my launcher and in-game settings are as attached - EXCEPT that I later unchecked 'Seed when downloaded'.

 

With these settings on my dated system, BoS performs acceptably, even after I applied the graphics tweak that decreases terrain blur (which I believe does make a difference to me on Balanced, even if you may need the High or Ultra graphics settings to get the most from it).

 

I appreciate this is likely little or no use to the OP but it may be of interest to others in a similar position to myself and contemplating BoS.

 

 

[CorsairHundo]

Can't make them disclose their plan?? Why on the world would you want to keep your paying customers in the dark?

 

Maybe this is a European thing or Russian way of doing business? Isn't this sim being made for the public or is it just a hobby for the Devs ?

 

 

Particularly considering that the sim is still a work in progress. It is not yet finished.

 

 

I believe that at the end of the day the devs want to deliver the best quality sim they can.

 

 

 

I was going to say this. Consider that IL2 and Forgotten Battles were made with the same engine yet there was a performance difference with Foprgotten Battles.. I know that a post was made by Zak saying that the presets were staying but we do not know for certain if this is forever or just for the immediate future and we cannot make the team disclose their plan.

[dburne]

Weptalo.

 

I recall having seen that one as well... Pretty close to being word for word. 

 

Ok I found the official response on the Steam forums on this topic, post #2:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/307960/discussions/0/619569608739908527/#p1

[shadowze]

@OP

 

Do you have a stock intel CPU cooler?

 

It might be possible to easily overclock your CPU , I know my olde Q6600 (which now resides in my media PC is super easy to overclock)

I could get it to 3Ghz without havng to play with voltages etc , there by gaining extra performance at no extra cost

 

Do you know which motherboard brand and model you have , I might be able to help out.

 

On another note it is sad that the devs think this games users are too retarded to handle "complex" graphics options

Edited December 29, 2014 by shadowze

[Bearcat]

Can't make them disclose their plan?? Why on the world would you want to keep your paying customers in the dark?

 

Maybe this is a European thing or Russian way of doing business? Isn't this sim being made for the public or is it just a hobby for the Devs ?

 

 

 

 

What I mean is their full plan.. Everything is still a work in progress.. and with a very attentive fan base that hinges on every thing you say .. it is better to play closer to the vest until you are closer to the point of disclosure and have a better idea of exactly what you are going to have.

 

Mind you.. I would prefer that the graphics presets were not there either..

[CorsairHundo]

That's understandable, you have to adapt change as things go. When things do change according to the oringinall plan, just explain why. Many may not like it but communications is better then having everyone guess why?

 

 

What I mean is their full plan.. Everything is still a work in progress.. and with a very attentive fan base that hinges on every thing you say .. it is better to play closer to the vest until you are closer to the point of disclosure and have a better idea of exactly what you are going to have.

 

Mind you.. I would prefer that the graphics presets were not there either..

[Force10]

By having presets, these permutations are limited to precisely 4. That represents a massive saving in time and resource.

 

 

 

 That would be great if there were only 4 types of PC configurations out there…unfortunately, there are hundreds. Over the years we have seen countless players saved by a tick box or setting adjustment in advanced options that make a game go from unplayable to playable.

 

Like many others…I used ROF as a baseline to how well I could run BOS per the devs suggestion. I was running ROF maxxed out with plenty of activity in the air and it was flawless. I ended up having to run BOS on low because of game crippling mega-stutter that made it impossible to land or take off. I can't help but think there might have been a setting in there that might have helped me.

 

Less options or scalability is never a better thing for the end user.

[CIA_Yankee_]

 That would be great if there were only 4 types of PC configurations out there…unfortunately, there are hundreds. Over the years we have seen countless players saved by a tick box or setting adjustment in advanced options that make a game go from unplayable to playable.

 

That's my point precisely.

 

Right now it's 4 x various configurations (we don't know how many rigs they test). Any more permutation will add another array of configurations under which it has to be tested. Without presets, you end up with far more than 4 permutations that need to be tested, which THEN need to be tested under all those various configurations. It's practically exponential.

 

So by cutting down the graphics settings to only 4 presets, it greatly reduces the testing load.

 

And yes, I would agree that custom graphics have their advantages as well. At the least, it would be good if we had full details on what each preset entailed (which would allow us to pinpoint potential issues and make changes in our driver settings accordingly)... but I cannot deny the advantages of presets. It allows the devs to get more bang for their QA bucks (and the same for support).

[J2_Trupobaw]

The only 'logical' explanation would be they are aiming (also) for consoles.

Can't see any other reason, because in EA the graphics settings worked fine.

 

speculation

From top of my head: something broke while working on in EA, or devs did away with some things to optimise others, weren't able to fix it, so left only the settings that don't expose the bug? When smart people stubbornly uphold something bad, I can't help suspecting they cover up something much worse with it. Like, game not working properly or CTDing except when stars settings are right. 

 

Something like that happened to triple screen support during development - stopped working spontanously and took time to get it working again. 

/speculation

Edited December 29, 2014 by Trupobaw

[Force10]

.. but I cannot deny the advantages of presets. It allows the devs to get more bang for their QA bucks (and the same for support).

 

 

…and I guess that's the difference in our thinking. I'm a customer…not a developer. I paid for something that was possibly crippled to low settings(basically…not worth flying) because I have no possibility to scale it to my system. It's too bad folks cannot think of the paying customer and put the developers first in every conversation.

[Tektolnes]

At the least, it would be good if we had full details on what each preset entailed (which would allow us to pinpoint potential issues and make changes in our driver settings accordingly)

 

We could edit the config file for months via backdoor during EA which the devs didn't know about but mysteriously didn't cause any issues. Once they found out they shut it down. Details below for what the presets contain where Preset 0 = Low. There's not much in them really and users and devs could easily handle a few more advanced options being made available. This current approach is a bit lazy.

 

//******** Preset 0 ************

[preset=0]

//Textures settings

Filter=3

texmipdown=1

land_textures=1

 

//Quality

shadows_quality=1

shadows_dynamic=1,false //Quality, InGameEnable, Smooth

reflection=2

grass_quality=5

forest_quality=1

landscape_parallax=0

smooth_effects=false

clouds_quality=1

 

//Distance

objects_distance=0.5

landscape_mesh_quality=1.0

forest_distance=1

 

//Post effects

post_effects_enable=true

post_bloom_enable=true

post_contrast=true

post_sharpen=false

post_drops_enable=false

post_hdr=0

post_motion_samples=0;

saturation=1.0

 

//Screen depth, SSAO, SSR

depth_res=1

ssao_res=-1

ssao_samples=0

ssr_samples=0

[end]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

//******** Preset 1 ************

[preset=1]

//Textures settings

Filter=3

texmipdown=0

land_textures=0

 

//Quality

shadows_quality=2

shadows_dynamic=1,false //Quality, InGameEnable, Smooth

reflection=3

grass_quality=5

forest_quality=1

landscape_parallax=1

clouds_quality=1

 

//Distance

objects_distance=1.0

landscape_mesh_quality=1.0

forest_distance=2

 

//Post effects

post_effects_enable=true

post_bloom_enable=true

post_contrast=true

post_sharpen=false

post_drops_enable=false

post_hdr=3

saturation=1.0

post_motion_samples=16;

 

//Screen depth, SSAO, SSR

depth_res=1

ssao_res=-1

ssao_samples=32

ssr_samples=20

[end]

 

 

 

//******** Preset 2 ************

[preset=2]

//Textures settings

Filter=3

texmipdown=0

land_textures=0

 

//Quality

shadows_quality=2

shadows_dynamic=1,false,true //Quality, InGameEnable, Smooth

reflection=3

grass_quality=7

forest_quality=1

landscape_parallax=1

clouds_quality=2

 

//Distance

objects_distance=1.0

landscape_mesh_quality=1.0

forest_distance=3

 

//Post effects

post_effects_enable=true

post_bloom_enable=true

post_contrast=true

post_sharpen=false

post_drops_enable=false

post_hdr=3

saturation=1.0

post_motion_samples=20;

 

//Screen depth, SSAO, SSR

depth_res=1

ssao_res=1

ssao_samples=32

ssr_samples=24

[end]

 

//******** Preset 3 ************

[preset=3]

//Textures settings

Filter=3

texmipdown=0

land_textures=0

 

//Quality

shadows_quality=2

shadows_dynamic=2,true,true //Quality, InGameEnable, Smooth

reflection=3

grass_quality=7

forest_quality=1

landscape_parallax=1

clouds_quality=2

 

//Distance

objects_distance=1.0

landscape_mesh_quality=1.0

forest_distance=3

 

//Post effects

post_effects_enable=true

post_bloom_enable=true

post_contrast=true

post_sharpen=false

post_drops_enable=false

post_hdr=3

saturation=1.0

post_motion_samples=24;

 

//Screen depth, SSAO, SSR

depth_res=1

ssao_res=1

ssao_samples=64

ssr_samples=30

[end]

[CorsairHundo]

I'll give you credit for sticking to "your" beliefs

 

 

 

That's my point precisely.

 

Right now it's 4 x various configurations (we don't know how many rigs they test). Any more permutation will add another array of configurations under which it has to be tested. Without presets, you end up with far more than 4 permutations that need to be tested, which THEN need to be tested under all those various configurations. It's practically exponential.

 

So by cutting down the graphics settings to only 4 presets, it greatly reduces the testing load.

 

And yes, I would agree that custom graphics have their advantages as well. At the least, it would be good if we had full details on what each preset entailed (which would allow us to pinpoint potential issues and make changes in our driver settings accordingly)... but I cannot deny the advantages of presets. It allows the devs to get more bang for their QA bucks (and the same for support).

[URUAker]

I support the OP's request for handing us back control over grafic settings and difficulty level and thus showing us the respect by treating us as mature customers.

THIS

[shadowze]

+1 for having better control of our graphics settings