Well, I Have It Now...

[BlackDevil]

I don´t have an instability issue. And IMO BoS planes feel much heavier than RoF planes. 

The great thing is,they feel like planes at all. I don´t have this impression in other sims.

RL I did fly everything from UL to 747. Nearest  to WW1 was the FW44, to WW2 the T6.

 

Difference to RL is principally the missing g-load. You would not throw the stick around as in front of the PC.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BlackDevil

[=LD=Penshoon]

I've tried this game with my MS FFB2 stick.

 

I've also used a CH combat stick.

 

I play it currently with a Warthog.

 

My observation of instability has not changed at all.

All of those (except maybe your warthog if it has an stick extension) has significantly shorter stick movement than what is used in these planes and can explain the instability. (I think)

What I like to see from a hardware producer is a full size control column like the one below but with FFB:

Edited December 22, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[BlackDevil]

Sadly it is unlikely, we will ever see this stick with FFB, as the force needed would be immense. I guess this is too expensive

 

But with this equipment there is surely no wobbling anymore. Even without FFB. But I don´t want to miss the great implementation of FFB in the DN engine.

So I have to stick with my prolonged FFB stick.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BlackDevil

[=LD=Penshoon]

Sadly it is unlikely, we will ever see this stick with FFB, as the force needed would be immense. I guess this is too expensive

Yeah you would need very powerful motors to make it work with that leverage. They aren't that expensive, problem is that they generate lots of heat. You would need ridiculous cooling fans like those you use in power-tools like hammer drills. I couldn't imagine playing with that much noise.

Edited December 22, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[BlackDevil]

... Might the problem be in this auto-centering ?

 

If you have a FFB stick, it centers correctly (the center moves with  the trim). That is the major difference to a non FFB stick. The effects (shaking and changing force with speed) are only a nice addition for me.

[Bearcat]

The gun pods put a lot of weight, no matter how well crafted, in a very bad place.  They will adversely affect the center of gravity, greatly reduce roll rate, add quite a bit if drag, and turn a lithe airframe like the 109 into a flying bus.

 

Even fine German engineering is not immune to the laws of physics.

 

Exactly!

 

Not to mention the recoil of the gun pods when they are firing out of synch will make the plane yaw back and forth like crazy.

 

Exactly! In the P-47 the recoil of the 8 .50 cals was so great that pilots were advised to watch their speed during strafing runs because the recoil could slow the plane down enough to make it stall. 

 

I feel like all the people commenting on how planes feel lighter have one thing in common. They all come from CLOD.

What if... CLoD was the one with heavier planes than they should? 

 

I'm just throwing the idea out there. I have no proof or anything like that. Hopefully someone can bring some good evidence that proves or disproves the things mentioned above.

 

Something to consider.

 

Just curious, what kind of sticks are you using? I think most of these issues exist because our hardware is very different. 

 

1# Joystick doesn't have the same movement range as on a real ones. A tiny movement on our sticks results bigger deflection in game. 

 

2# Most sticks are centered by a mechanical spring and not aero forces. Dampening the oscillations without a force feedback stick is impossible for me but definitely manageable with FFB. Just looking at someone else flying in multiplayer I can see if he is using a ffb stick or not as the planes fly much less erratic with ffb. 

 

I use a MSFFB2. I actually like the way the FFB is implemented in BoS and I hope it doesn't change.

[CIA_Yankee_]

To the OP: Welcome aboard! I'm glad you could join us, and that you're enjoying the sim!

 

As for the FM, this is obviously a very subjective topic (as this thread demonstrate), but I imagine it's not perfect yet. One of the main issues, of course, is it's probably not perfect in any other WWII sim out there, so it's very hard to have a good baseline for "calibration".

 

Control settings might play a role, mind you. I've added significant curves to my controls, and it has helped tremendously, though I need to fiddle with my rudder pedal settings some more. I think a big issue with the rudder is how our own pedals aren't as smooth as the RL ones. Having it on a spring instead of actually linked directly to the control surface obviously creates a major difference.

[Sokol1]

 

 

1# Joystick doesn't have the same movement range as on a real ones. A tiny movement on our sticks results bigger deflection in game.

 

This is a moot argument, flight games must be made to be controlled available and accessible hardware* - actually are only short, non Force Feedback joysticks available in shops - and not

with very expensive custom made controls or a real P-51 control column buy in some junkyard...   

 

* Not to mention the crowds asking to control the flight with... mouse...   

 

Sokol1

[Danziger]

I know the MiG-3 was modified with under-wing pods with just the small (compared to cannons) 12.7mm UB guns in an attempt to beef up the weaker nose armament. Those small pods had such a negative effect on the flight performance that they were stripped off in the field.

 

This is quoted from the lower part of this ( http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/guns.html ) page.

 

"From February 20, 1941, a new version with two further 12,7 mm  BK guns  on under-wing pods with 145 rounds each                                                

The new standard revealed itself unsatisfactory, as the weight increased of about 150 kg, deteriorating the flight characteristics of the aircraft; besides, the firing at high g manoeuvres was imprecise due to torsion flexing of the wings, so the most of the gun pods were removed when the aircrafts arrived at the units. 
821 examples with 5 guns were produced through July 27, 1941, when the under-wing guns were deleted from production, and the armament returned to the original standard."

[=LD=Penshoon]

This is a moot argument, flight games must be made to be controlled available and accessible hardware* - actually are only short, non Force Feedback joysticks available in shops - and not

with very expensive custom made controls or a real P-51 control column buy in some junkyard...   

 

* Not to mention the crowds asking to control the flight with... mouse...   

 

Sokol1

If they remade the flight models so they would be perfectly controllable with even the tiniest joysticks (like Xbox 360 game pad), won't you end up with the planes that fly similarly to games like Battlefield, H.A.W.X and other so on?

Those games are specifically designed to be easily controlled with whatever control you happen to have at home.

 

I think people like this game because it mimics real flight very well. Not because it's easy and accessible. BOS already has some difficulty options that simplify the flight model to make it easier to control. But I don't think anyone here would like to see the accurate FMs replaced with these?

 

I believe that given enough time and practice you can learn to fly with practically any stick. It just comes quicker and more natural if you use something that resemble the real deal. 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Well,

 

trying to find out if in some way it might be related to joystick ( I am using a Saitek X55 Rhino, and before I had used a Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS ), I decided to install the sim in another PC and run it with the Mouse!

 

In fact, none of the wobbling problems, specially with the Axis fighters, were noticeable so far ( ??? )

 

One aspect when flying this way, or using the keyboard which i abandoned because it becomes really weird / uncontrollable, is that your "stick" and "rudder" do not auto-center... Might the problem be in this auto-centering ?

 

I'll try to use the "softer" spring that came with the Rhino, or no spring at all and see what I get, but I guess I will then have a problem with DCS :-/

 

 

Mine is well broken in. The centre is starting to get a bit loose. Might have to start messing arouond with deadzones.

 

Does the Warthog joystick start to get loose over time?

[=LD=Penshoon]

Now that I think about it, War thunder has a joystick setting called "sensitivity" that makes the game average out your stick movements so you get less wobble in exchange for less direct control.

It doesn't affect the flight models at all so I don't see why it couldn't be used here. It would certainly make the game easier to control for most people. 

Edited December 22, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[Urra]

Now that I think about it, War thunder has a nice joystick setting called "sensitivity" that makes the game average out your stick movements so you get less wobble in exchange for less direct control.

It doesn't affect the flight models at all so I don't see why it couldn't be used here. It would certainly make the game easier to control for most people.

Some thing like this exists and fulfills the same function in the Devices tab. It applies to all axis though. Not individual. I like it very much.

[=LD=Penshoon]

Some thing like this exists and fulfills the same function in the Devices tab. It applies to all axis though. Not individual. I like it very much.

Nice, didn't know that. I wonder why it wasn't placed in the same menu as the non-linearity and deadzone settings.

Edited December 22, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[oneeyeddog]

No, but I got mine ( warthog ) in 2nd hand from a friend ( the same who offered me il2-bos :-) ) and after a few months I had to replace the Pots. Then, after a while I began to experience spikes again :-/ That's when I decided to go for the Saitek x55...

 

Another problem was that the Cougar is too stiff...

I thought that the Warthog uses Hall Effect Sensors, not potentiometers. 

[dburne]

I thought that the Warthog uses Hall Effect Sensors, not potentiometers. 

 

It certainly does, both stick and throttle. No pots.

[GP*]

I believe that given enough time and practice you can learn to fly with practically any stick. It just comes quicker and more natural if you use something that resemble the real deal.

I've read all your posts since my last response, and I understand where you're coming from. However, there's a difference between "feeling of flight" and excessive instability, particularly in the yaw axis. I agree, this game offers a fantastic sensation of flight. There is just something off with the way aircraft continue to oscillate after a control input is given and then released (again, particularly with yaw). Perhaps it is addressed in the patch; I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

 

I don't speculate as to the reason, however, because I'm not an aero engineer. I'm not an expert at the science, but I've devoted much of my life to perfecting stick-and-rudder flying. I have a solid understanding of how a wide array of aircraft behave in flight, particularly when maneuvered with aggression and close to the critical angle of attack.

 

That's why posts like the one I've quoted above are somewhat "missing the mark." This isn't a debate about flying skill. It's not a lack of practice. I adapted long ago to the FM present in game. Just because I can succeed at flying it, doesn't mean it is correct.

 

I hope I've been able to express my thoughts adequately here.

[=LD=Penshoon]

That's why posts like the one I've quoted above are somewhat "missing the mark." This isn't a debate about flying skill. It's not a lack of practice. I adapted long ago to the FM present in game. Just because I can succeed at flying it, doesn't mean it is correct.

 

I hope I've been able to express my thoughts adequately here.

Rereading through my posts I realize I might sound as a besserwisser and if I could I would rephrase them now. I'm pretty sure I'm way worse at flying in the game compared to most people. I also have wobbliness, mostly in the pitch axis but have just as you simply adapted to it over time. I have no crazy big spitfire control column so I can't say for sure it would change the flight behavior

 

I don't speculate as to the reason, however, because I'm not an aero engineer. I'm not an expert at the science, but I've devoted much of my life to perfecting stick-and-rudder flying. I have a solid understanding of how a wide array of aircraft behave in flight, particularly when maneuvered with aggression and close to the critical angle of attack.

I'm neither of those things and have no real stick time so you have me beat  . But I do like to speculate on internet forums about the reasons for the different behaviors. And If I'm corrected then usually I learn something new. BOS is the first flight sim that I've put serious time into.

 

Sorry for breaking up your post in quotes also, just wanted to address that part first.

Edited December 23, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[Georgio]

As a warthog user, the only time I get wobble is when I'm trying to yank and bank too low and slow when strafing, the rest of the time the FM feels pretty good to me especially in comparision to CloD where all the planes feel like they're on rails with zero inertia or mass.

When you dive in BoS you really dive and everything starts to happen real fast which is the case in RL for anyone that's tried it. I only fly Russian but to me the birds feel 'right' except when landing. For some reason a couple of patches ago something was changed with the landing as it's way too easy now, it almost feels like the runway is magnetic and the ground effect has been taken away.

It used to be really hard to get everything just right for a three pointer, too fast and you were going to glide the length of the runway, too high a descent and you were either going to lose your u/c or bounce 10 storeys then lose your u/c.

The only way to get down was just above stall, full flaps and flare at just the right time straight onto three wheels, it was satisfying.

Now it's too easy imo, but if it gets votes then whatever...  :D

[Sokol1]

I'll try to use the "softer" spring that came with the Rhino, or no spring at all and see what I get, but I guess I will then have a problem with DCS :-/

 

Try this, set Rino pinkie lever to press Alt.

 

Set aileron, elevator axis to be controlled with Alt+ Joy axis. Now you only control these axis if hold pinkie lever (press Alt), but can leave the joystick - without springs - hands-off without spinning the plane. 

[Trident_109]

All of those (except maybe your warthog if it has an stick extension) has significantly shorter stick movement than what is used in these planes and can explain the instability. (I think)

 

 

 

I find it difficult to believe that a game developer would create a flight sim with stick movements based on the longer throws of real planes and not take our small joysticks into consideration. If they didn't, that's just stupid to me. How many CFS enthusiasts are going to go out and buy a full sized stick? I've got a HOTAS - RUDDER set up and I'm quite happy with it, but I'm not going to invest in something that's not practical.

 

I understand keeping things accurate, but we should be simulating an experience based on what equipment we have available. After all, in one of 777's promotional videos they hold up a $40.00 Saitek stick, exclaiming that this is all you need to fly this game.

[SYN_Mike77]

Some where over on the RoF site there is a series of very long and detailed posts from the devs about how they handled the smaller (compared to the real thing) computer joysticks.  I didn't understand 3/4 of it but some of you might find it interesting.  Well search is your friend!  Here is the post I was thinking about:

 

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2564&hilit=response+curves

 

Edit:  I don't know if this has any bearing on BoS at all.

Edited December 23, 2014 by SYN_Mike77

[SharpeXB]

The only way for a flight sim to accommodate short game sticks is to have an input curve. This could be added by design or have linear be the default and let the user add curves. The second is the best way.

[=LD=Penshoon]

Some where over on the RoF site there is a series of very long and detailed posts from the devs about how they handled the smaller (compared to the real thing) computer joysticks.  I didn't understand 3/4 of it but some of you might find it interesting.  Well search is your friend!  Here is the post I was thinking about:

 

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2564&hilit=response+curves

 

Edit:  I don't know if this has any bearing on BoS at all.

That's a great link Mike, thanks for posting that. Shows how much thought the devs put into these issues and how they try to accommodate every stick even if there is no perfect solution. 

[Darkmouse]

Evening All,

 

First post, picked the game up in the steam sale about 6 hours ago - I've been meaning to get it for ages though. However, first impressions are: There is something very fishy about the FM, something fundamental that can't be tweaked out with joystick settings.

 

I cant quite put my finger on it yet, but it has to do with control surface responsiveness not behaving as you'd expect throughout the speed range of, well, all the ac I tried. They all respond like sluggish wallowing dogs, and the nose seems to 'wonder around' even at fairly high speeds where you expect the controls to be crisp and responsive.

 

I don't know why I felt the need to post that, but I did. I'm going to do some more investigative work in the morning and see if I can figure it out.

 

Cheers,

 

Darkmouse  

[SYN_Mike77]

So I reread that explanation of joystick behavior and it made more sense to this tech adverse reader.  I think what I found most impressive is the decision making process (something I do know a bit about) that was used here.  Alternatives were explored and using something like a cost-benifit analysis was applied to come to a reasoned decision.  Very interesting case study.

[Guest deleted@1562]

Mine is well broken in. The centre is starting to get a bit loose. Might have to start messing arouond with deadzones.

 

Does the Warthog joystick start to get loose over time?

 

After 3 years of heavy use, mine didn't.

[Sokol1]

http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2564&hilit=response+curves

 

Edit:  I don't know if this has any bearing on BoS at all.

 

This above link was posted here - be dev's - as explanation in one of these endless "Bf 109 FM porked". 

 

OK with this 1:1, long trow stick, but the COTS market offer basically short joysticks, an the "new player" want try with XBox gamepad and mouse, is need a way to adjust the joystick response curve.

[SharpeXB]

My experience is that the softer you can make your joystick Spring work the better. Even no joystick is used ), it works nice for me in il2-BoS

The reason I like the CH Fighterstick is that it has a very light spring and a long throw. In DCS and BoS I have only a 20% pitch curve and 15% on the other axis and find it very controllable.